At 3:57 AM +0000 3/7/03, nrf wrote: >""Mark W. Odette II"" wrote in message >news:[EMAIL PROTECTED] >> I'm ALL FOR THIS: >> It's too bad that they don't do this with the C/S. If they would test >> features available only on 7500's and up, that would mean that a greater >> percentage of C/S candidates would be actual ISP engineers, not >> lab-rats, >> which would be good for the program. >> >> JUST SO LONG AS: the hiring manager/HR Puppet doesn't require prior >> experience in "an enterprise network environment" just to get an >> interview. That was EXACTLY the catch-22 I faced getting into this >> industry 9 years ago. "What, no experience?!?! Then why would I want to >> hire you and put you in the seat of managing my 2000 node >> network?...shyaa right! You aren't touchin' this network with a 10 foot >> pole!" > >But surely you can understand why companies do things that way. The fact >is, lab environments are very different from production environments. >Things that are allowed, and even encouraged in a lab environment will get >you tossed on the street were you to do them in a production environment. > >Or let me put it to you this way. Let's say you're injured and you need >some surgery. The doctor comes in and says that while he's never performed >a real operation before in his life, he's really good at cutting up >cadavers. Feel confident, or might you ask for another doctor? Exactly.
Well, sometimes there are no good choices, but this is probably more in medicine than in networking. If you and I were off camping and you suffered a chest injury causing a tension pneumothorax or a hemothorax, and no thoracic surgeon could be available in hours, what would be the choice if I showed up with an improvised chest tube and drainage set, and I at least (1) have watched the procedure [true statement] and knew when I needed to go in at the second intercostal versus the fifth intercostal space. Alteratively, you could die. I could also fumble my way to managing your fluid balance and trying to protect you against secondary infection. Am I a currently certified advanced Paramedic or licensed physician? No--but I might be the only chance you had, if I had even marginal equipment. And, of course, if I possibly could, I'd establish a communications link with an appropriate surgeon. I am dealing with the problem, as I write this in the wee hours, of having a client who thought I could define a parts purchase list for a complex (non-commercial) VoIP+++ lab in a couple of hours. I've gotten to the point that I am getting comfortable that a combination of an Adtran Atlas 830 and an appropriate instructor-controlled Cisco router will provide adequate PSTN simulation, but I still don't have a firm handle on the instructional purpose of all the student pods, nor time to come up with parts lists for the cross-connect panels. I am starting on a nearly 400 page Adtran manuals trying to match needed features, capacity, and cards, and also either to come up with parts lists, or at least come up with requirements to delegate, for the 66/110 blocks, Cat 5 panels, etc. My knowledge here is by no means restricted to book, but it doesn't necessarily cover the specific parts (I worked on Adtran 800's , not their replacement, the 835), and haven't looked at recent Graybar or Black Box catalogs to see which patch panels and cables to order. Is this paper experience? No. But it's not something where the finished design, three hours later, will pop out of my forehead as Pallas Athene popped out of the forehead of Zeus (Olympic News Network quotes Zeus: "Oh, do I have a HEADACHE!") And, in fact, it helps that I have considerable telco as well as ISP and enterprise experience. Unfortunately, in the face of cost-cutting I WANT IT NOW, only the gods prevail. > >> >> OJT is not what it used to be in the 80's. You got hired for more then >> the ability to pass the basic math test. You were hired because of your > > aptitude proven in the interview. Then you were sent to training >> classes for the first several weeks of your new job. Then you were >> placed under a supervisor and mentored for a time period. >> >> These days, there are reasons why they put the "must be able to work >> with minimal to zero supervision" in the description of the IT Job >> posting. And they don't have any interest or plan in putting you >> through any kind of training... >> >> ... so the Ol' Catch-22 returns in vogue just like the bell-bottoms. > >So basically you are yourself admitting that you want a guy who can hit the >ground running, which puts a premium on experience. > >> >> ... and one more thing: Am I just living in a bubble or something, cuz' >> I just don't see this phenomenon of thousands of geeks like myself >> scoffing up gear in their homes here in the D/FW, Texas area to take a >> smack at the R/S or C/S labs ... is this geographic by nature or >> something by economic demographic?? (read - is this something observed >> in the California, N.Y., Illinois, or Virginia area) > >I don't know about the other areas, but there is a definite cooling of >interest in NorCal, at least in basic R/S, which, let's face it, is turning >more and more into a commodity every day. DFW is probably really bad >because of the crushed telcos, and I can imagine that Virginia ain't too hot >either - after all, NorVir is ISP Central, and ISP's have been slashing jobs >left and right. > >> >> -Mark >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nrf [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] >> Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2003 7:20 PM >> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >> Subject: Re: New Voice CCIE [7:64620] >> >> ""The Long and Winding Road"" wrote in >> message news:[EMAIL PROTECTED] >> > ""DAve Diaz"" wrote in message >> > news:[EMAIL PROTECTED] >> > > how are you supposed to prepare for this buty all that equipment no >> thanks >> > > >> > >> > >> > there would be a distinct advantage to substantial hands on >> experience. >> > maybe this marks the start of the trend away from the "paper" ( some >> use >> the >> > term "lab rat" ) CCIE's of the last couple of years? >> >> Yeah, so maybe that's precisely the point. They don't want guys to just >> get >> a bunch of stuff in a home lab and -presto- another CCIE comes out >> without >> ever having used the gear in a production environment in his life, and >> thereby cheapening the value of the cert. Perhaps they figure that if >> they >> require candidates to have a lot of hands-on experience with high-end >> gear, >> then most of the candidates will be employees of companies with large >> networks, which was the precise target demographic of the CCIE in the >> first >> place. >> >> It's too bad that they don't do this with the C/S. If they would test >> features available only on 7500's and up, that would mean that a greater >> percentage of C/S candidates would be actual ISP engineers, not >> lab-rats, >> which would be good for the program. >> >> > >> > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >From: "Maurizio Moroni" >> > > >Reply-To: "Maurizio Moroni" >> > > >To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >> > > >Subject: New Voice CCIE [7:64620] >> > > >Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2003 16:12:11 GMT >> > > > >> > > >Hi Group, >> > > > >> > > >I would like to know what's your take on the new CCIE Voice >> Certification >> > > >Track >> > > >> >(http://www.cisco.com/warp/customer/625/ccie/ccie_program/whatsnew.html >> ) >> > > > >> > > >Regards, >> > > >Maurizio >> > > _________________________________________________________________ >> > > MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*. >> > > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7&i=64696&t=64620 -------------------------------------------------- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
