Yes, Brad, I do agree that particular with a large family of instruments like citterns there are bound to be regional variations. All I was pointing out was that as an instrument matures, so the strings and tuning tend to setle down to what is found to be most suitable for a particular kind of music and technique. For example, it is pretty widely acknowledged what 'standard' guitar tuning is. It is sometimes varied to suit different musical styles - eg: slide playing - but it mostly played in 'standard' tuning. Granted some people use 'alternative' tunings based around an open chord, but the well-known 'standard' tuning is more commonplace I think. Violin also has a 'standard' tuning which is more often used than any other. The changes which occured to Violins towards the end of the eighteenth century were not really THAT major - they were just refinements to keep the instrument best suited to its musical environment. Most existing instruments of any use were converted. All except for 6 known Strads were altered. One, the ex-Duprey Cello now played by Yo Yo Ma was converted back to Baroque specification a while ago for some recordings and has now been put back into modern trim. If the changes were that drastic then they would not be hacking a Strad Cello around like this ! It only amounts to changing the neck length and rake angle and the bridge height so that heavier strings can be used with more tension and thus give a louder sound. Unfortunately a few instruments did not survive these chages. Starivarius Violas are particularly rare. Anyway, I don't think that we really disagree that much on this. My statement was intended to be comparative. I was suggesting that old established instruments like the Violin and Guitar have known 'standard' tuning which has emerged as the most appropriate for how they are used and they are tuned that way far more often than not. This is in comparison to the 'modern' Sobell-style Cittern, which does not (to me, at any rate) appear to have any particularly standard tuning. I am suggesting that ths is because it is a relatively recent addition to our musical armoury and would expect that some sort of more popular tuning for it will settle down over time to become accepted as the 'standard' tuning. Let's face it, there doesn't appear to be a 'standard' scale length for the modern cittern either ! Anyway, I was just putting forward a theory based on observation that things like scale length and tuning are more arbitrary when an instrument is quite new to the world and settles down, by comparison, as it matures. Maybe I'm wrong ? It is only a theory after all. Kevin. Brad McEwen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Kevin: I agree up to a point as well, BUT: The violin (which you use as an example) underwent a lot of changes in the 18th C. including a longer scale, greater arch to the bridge and fingerboard, more volume, different bows and bowing technique, different hand position, method of joining the neck to the body, change of pitch to A440, etc.. Although these changes didn't alter the basic tuning and appearance, they were significant. The ubiquitous guitar seems to continue to evolve (electric, 19th c American steel string, resonator, lap steel, dreadnought, etc) to the point where the modern guitar is quite different in shape, sound and feel to any typical early -mid 19th C version. Obviously the instruments that we are referring to collectively as citterns have a great number of variants. In differnt periods of time and locations, there appear to be innumerable examples of cittern type instruments with differnt sizes, shapes and tunings. The Corsican appears to have survived as a distinct cittern type that, although differing in many ways to the Renaissance versionretained cetain Renaissance features (body shape and re-entrant tuning), yet is distinct enough to be quite separate. There are many styles of 18th "English" types and the French had a distinct type as well, it seems. We discussed so many differnt instruments and so many of these (Spanish bandurria, laud, Portuguese guitarra, waldzither, Corsican, etc, etc.)appear to be regional variants that evolved over a period of time in separate geographic/cultural areas. Even the Renaissance cittern had variants in terms of shape, size, number of strings and tunings. There appears to have been Italian types, French and English. I think that it's a mistake to assume that there ever was a standard version of the instrument in that period. Even though there were some tutors for Renaissance citern (if memory serves me correctly), they were for different variants favoured in differnt countries (French, Italian, English). What was being played elsewhere at the same time? What citterns were played in other countries where no one wrote a tutor? More variants? There are others on this list with much more knowledge than me, but that's how it looks to me, at any rate. I'd be happy to be corrected if I'm wrong. Brad
KEVIN LAWTON <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Agreed, to a point, but . . . . . . . Most instruments we know about have existed, or did exist, for a long time - often several centuries. Over that period of time they changed. My feelings are that the changes would have been greatest when the instrument was fairly young. People would have been experimenting with the new instrument and trying various stringing, tuning and maybe different construction as well. Then after a while, probably quite a few decades, one particular tuning - in a particular area or location - would emerge as the most suitable for the use the instrument was put to and this would become the 'standard' tuning for it. A century or two later and musical tastes, styles and techniques would move on somewhat and more development would occur. Take an instrument like the violin, which about 350 years ago settled into the design by Nicoli Amati which has not changed much from then to the present day. Shortly after that, at the same time as Antonio Stradivari was making violins to what was essentially that design, Antonio Vivaldi and Tomaso Albinoni were writing music for the instrument. That music, and music in a similar style, is still played today and so the requirements of the instrument have not significantly changed. The modern version of the Cittern was, I believe, 'invented' by Stefan Sobell a little less than thirty years ago. Still being relatively recent, and not having its own established repertoire, I would suggest that the tuning and playing technique are still in the 'experimental' stage. Give it a few more decades, maybe, and it might settle down to something more 'standard'. Kevin. Brad McEwen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Doc: Rant away. That's what this list is for, isn't it? It seems to me that there are so many different variations of any given musical instrument over any given area and period of time that an endless evolution of them naturally occurred. Evolution is possibly a good analogy, as the conditions fofa paticular area (cultrue, climate, etc.) would play a part in determing the type of variation. It's fascinating and very appealing to attempt to discover a pattern of development and to map that pattern. But if we can't do that with modern "Celtic" (for lack of a better word) citterns, how can we do so with historical ones? Look at all the discussion about scale length, tunigns, string gauges, etc. on the other citternlist. That's modern. How would it have been two hundred or more years ago? Brad Stuart Walsh wrote: [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > > > > The more instruments I've seen travelling around the more I see just how > varied instruments were in terms of size, shape, number of strings, > tunings, and quality of construction. For years I've been advocating a > chronological and zig-zag history for the cittern, similar to that of the > guitar. I think the separation between early citterns and the so-called > English guittar was perpetrated in great part by the Grove dictionary. The > writers there consistently insist that the English guittar is not a > cittern; I've never found their argument convincing (in part because thy > don't really say why). > > > > I'll stop before I start ranting... > > > > Doc Rossi > > > I'm nor sure what you are ranting about. If it's connected with what I wrote, I think I simply talked about different kinds of cittern and the history of that instrument. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html --------------------------------- How low will we go? Check out Yahoo! Messenger's low PC-to-Phone call rates. -- --------------------------------- Get your email and more, right on the new Yahoo.com -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
