James A Stimson wrote: > > > Dear Stuart and All: > My apologies for sowing confusion. The book is "European and American > Musical Instruments" by Anthony Baines (not Haynes), published in 1966. The > book includes many photos of surviving 17th-century citterns. > The meantone fret placement could be calculated using the numeric > proportions provided by David Dolata in his article on fretting and > temperaments that was published in the LSA Quarterly, I think in August > 1994. If you'd like I could key those in for you, and you could do the > calculation based on the stopped string length. > Cheers, > Jim > > > > James,
I have this book and my home-made instrument is based on no.261 (minus the keybox. But I'd love to hear, and try, a 'pianoforte guitar' though). Andrew has sent a link to a table on his site based on Dolata's article. The studia-instrumentorum site has three eighteenth-century French citterns, and with fret distances in mms and in cents. http://www.studia-instrumentorum.de/MUSEUM/ZISTER/0618.htm http://www.studia-instrumentorum.de/MUSEUM/ZISTER/0619.htm http://www.studia-instrumentorum.de/MUSEUM/ZISTER/0620.htm These instruments are by Le Blond and Deleplanque,:both makers of some repute, I think. Looking at Andrew's table (based on Dolata) and looking at the cents for the frets given for these three instruments is utterly baffling. Partly I'm stuck because Andrew's table concerns a 'g' top course and the top course of a cistre is 'e'. The first fret of a 'g' instrument could be g# or a flat , and the meantone differences are huge. I'm not sure how to transpose this to an instrument with an 'e' top course. Is the first fret on an 'e' top course the equivalent of a g# or an a flat on a 'g ' instrument? But that's not really the problem. I'm looking at the figures in Dolata's table for equal temperament, and, as you suggest, fifth and sixth comma temperament, and then looking at the numbers for the frets (in cents) for the three instruments listed above (on the studa-instrumentarium site) and I can see no principle or pattern at all. These French citterns don't agree with each other and don't seem to be equal temperament nor unequal temperament (fifth or sixth tone or anything else) either! Stuart > > > Stuart Walsh > > <[EMAIL PROTECTED] To: James A Stimson > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, > .com> [email protected] > > cc: > > 10/27/2006 04:12 Subject: Re: [CITTERN] Re: > fret positions on 18th century > AM citterns > > > > > > > > > > James A Stimson wrote: > >> Dear Stuart and All: >> My question on your fret placement (I haven't subjected the numbers to >> measurement yet) is whether they are in equal temperament or some sort of >> meantone. I highly recommend fifth-comma or sixth-comma fret placement if >> you want the instrument to sound in tune with itself. This is not only my >> direct experience with years of cittern playing, but also observable on >> virtually all of the high-quality extant instruments, of which there are >> many. Take a look at Haynes' picture book of early instruments for a good >> illustration of this idea. >> Cheers, >> Jim >> >> >> >> > Thanks for the advice. What is the Hayne's book? And is there some > (simple!) formula for calculating, for example ,fret placements in a > fifth-comma temperament? > > The fret distances I gave were from Carpentier in 1771 but I don't know > how reliable the source is. There are a couple of instruments by Le > Blond on the studia-instrumentorum site which also have fret distances > given too: > http://www.studia-instrumentorum.de/MUSEUM/ZISTER/0618.htm > http://www.studia-instrumentorum.de/MUSEUM/ZISTER/0619.htm > > I really like this shape of these instruments and they are exactly the > sort of thing I'm trying to copy. I wonder if there is an quick way of > calculating whether these fret positions are mean-tone or not? The > string length of both is very close to the 'dix-huit and demi pouce' > string length that Carpentier specifies. > > It looks like the Carpentier instructions and the two Le Blond > instruments are giving similar positions for the frets. My calculation > of Carpentier's instructions put the seventh fret at either 15.9 or > 15.7cms from the nut. This is for a 46.99cm string length. > > The Le Blond instrument with a string length of 47.2cms puts the seventh > fret at 15.74. The Le Blond instrument with a string length of 47.5cms > puts the seventh at > 15.61. > > I'd really like the instrument to be in tune with itself but I'd like to > respect what information there is about fret placements for that > particular time. However, like methods of barring, I suspect there are > no absolutely secure, underlying principles. > > > > Thanks again > > Stuart > > > > > > >> Stuart Walsh >> > > >> <[EMAIL PROTECTED] To: >> > [email protected] > > >> .com> cc: >> > > >> Subject: [CITTERN] fret >> > positions on 18th century citterns > >> 10/26/2006 03:03 >> > > >> PM >> > > > > > > >> >> >> I think I may have asked this before but I've done more homework this >> > time. > >> I'm trying to work out how to fret a home-made cittern and I'm having >> help from a local maker. He's going to re-fret my instrument - my fret >> placements just didn't work. Embarrassingly, I can't remember what >> string length I was working to when I made the instrument, but I think >> it was 50cms. >> >> When I made the instrument I just used the guitarists 1/18 rule (or a >> more precise fraction) to set the fret positions and whether I'd >> miscalculated or simply sawn the frets in the wrong place (or both) I >> don't know. But I've got an opportunity to have it put right. >> >> Assuming a string length of around 50cms (or a bit different; it has a >> floating bridge), any ideas on how to work out where to put the frets? >> >> >> I've got very precise instructions form Carpentier's Methode of 1771. >> But his written instructions and an accompanying diagram differ >> although it's just one detail, and an important detail. Carpentier is >> giving instructions for placing frets for an eighteen and a half >> 'pouce' diapason (= eighteen and a half inch string length). A'pouce' is >> 25.4mm.There are 12 'lignes' to a pouce. >> >> So Carpentier is giving a fretting pattern for an instrument with a >> string length of 46.99cm. >> >> The written instructions for fretting the 'e' chanterelle up to the >> note b (but Carpentier gives instructions for notes beyond the twelfth >> fret) translating from lignes to mm are: >> >> e-f 29.63mm >> f-f# 22.2mm >> f#-g 23.283mm >> g-g# 21.166mm >> g#-a 21.6958mm >> a-a# 21.166mm >> a#-b 19.579mm >> >> The diagram in Carpentier's Methode doesn't mention notes just frets >> (sillets) - fret 1, fret 2 etc and the numbers (given in 'lignes') >> match up with the written ones except that he misses out the g-g#. So >> the fret positions derived from the diagram are: >> >> nut - fret 1 29.63mm >> fret 1-fret 2 22.2mm >> fret 2-fret3 23.283mm >> fret 3-fret 4 21.6958mm >> fret 4-fret 5 21.166mm >> fret 5-fret 6 19.579mm >> fret 6- fret 7 19.049mm >> >> >> I wonder if these figures look at all plausible for an instrument with a >> string length of 46.99cms? And, if they do, which is right! The diagram >> misses out the g-g# but >> for the fifth fret (the interval of a fourth) the numbers add up the >> same for both diagram and written instructions: 117.9478mm. But for the >> seventh fret (the interval of a fifth) the numbers add up differently. >> The written instructions would have the seventh fret 158.7198mm from the >> nut. The diagram would place the seventh fret at 156.603mm from the nut. >> >> So a relatively simple question to anyone who knows about fretting is >> (to repeat): on a cittern with a string length of 46.99cms, which is the >> more plausible to have the seventh fret at 15.87198cms or 15.6603cms? >> >> Many thanks for any guidance or advice. >> >> >> >> >> >> To get on or off this list see list information at >> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > > > > >
