I am not always active on this list, mainly a lurker. I wanted to comment on this
discussion for two reasons. One is I respect Peggy as a dog person and personally
have learned a lot from her in the show ring. I agree with her - as a buyer of
anything, dog, house, car, it is the BUYERS repsonsibility to not only read, but
understand what the content of any legal contract. One going into any contract whether
for sole purchase or a co-owner, needs to pay attention to what you are agreeing to,
as you hopefully would in any legal contract, it's a binding legal document.
Secondly - I am one of those "newbies" to not only Cavaliers but to the show world,
although I have had dogs my entire life. When I decided to get a Cavalier I spent
many evenings (months) on the phone with multiple breeders, (after I spent almost a
year researching) and one of them spent many hours with me on the phone (most just
brushed me off) that I am forever grateful for and that is Sally Minetree who
entrusted me with my Berkeley (Ch. Shenandoah Danzig) which yes, I co-own with her!
I have heard the horror stories out there and I just want to confirm that if you
partner with a reputable breeder, one with INTEGRITY and more importantly one who is
passionate about the breed it works! It has worked for me, Sally has been a huge
mentor and support for me and I now have a Champion dog that if she had not entrusted
to me, first and foremost as a pet, he may not have become the wonder he is - okay so
I am prejudice! I would also never have entered into the dog show world of which I
have learned a ton and met more friends than I ever have. It really is about being in
it for the love of the breed.
I just want to be the one - who not only co-owns but am grateful I do - because I
wouldn't have the best dog in the world, okay, so I am being prejudice again!! And as
Peggy and many of you have said - whether it's called stupidity, or just ignorance, or
just bad luck, it's respsonsibility as a buyer and a breeder that makes it work, like
any partnership arrangement - you get out of it what you put into it - so read and
thoroughly understand what you are agreeing to before you complete the sale
transaction.
Glenda
Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2001 09:47:37 -0400
From: Peggy Mickelson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: and a reply -
Yes, Suze, I do blame the buyers as well as the sellers. Do you think I was
treated differently when I went looking for my first show quality Cavalier?
I wasn't - and I came from an extensive and successful background in the dog
world. None of the Cavalier people cared...when I went to my first club
shows I felt like I had a sign on me that read "AKC person." I didn't have
such a sign and was, in fact, very happy that the breed was NOT recognized by
the AKC. In time I think most people accepted that. The club thing is not
an issue with
me.
It was difficult to get a good puppy in the States then, and it still is.
But I do not believe anyone is forced to enter into the kind of contracts
wherein the breeder gets a bunch of money up front and then dozens of puppies
back, with the buyer paying stud fees and all expenses, etc. There are
alternatives...as Dave proved, and as Lauren Nikaci proved as well. I don't
know how far those two individuals searched, but they did do some searching.
(Just using them as examples, there are undoubtedly others around who refused
to buy dogs
with strings attached.)
As you said, when you begin you don't always know what direction you will
want to head in insofar as pedigrees and bloodlines are
concerned...therefore, why would a person without that kind of knowledge be
so set on buying from a particular person or kennel that they had to sign
their lives away just to get a dog from the "one and only" source? It might
be different if, after a few years, the buyer realized "oops, I've made a
poor start, what I really want is dogs like Whoever has....." and then be
willing to give up autonomy over a dog
just to have the bloodline or a particular dog. But to do so in the very
beginning, especially with someone who is virtually a stranger, well, the
saying Caveat Emptor is well founded, isn't it?
Yes, almost all my Cavaliers leave here with a contract...and the terms
are discussed with the buyers in detail beforehand. I did sell one on trust
with a verbal agreement and a handshake, and that arrangement has gone down
the tubes as far as I'm concerned. I sold a show-quality bitch for a pet
price with the agreement that I could purchase back a puppy at the same
price...that one is lost to me forever, I fear. My fault, her gain.
Some people also let you have the dog and later you find out that they
have all sorts of requirements that were not mentioned up front. Those
people wouldn't dare have a written contract.
If the terms of the contract require giving up control of the dog the
buyer is spending money on, then the buyer shouldn't buy it. If the buyer
just has to have the dog, then whose fault is it that they signed the
contract?
You won't get a lecture on patience from me--I'm the most impatient
person on earth, as the people who know me well can tell you. However, as a
dog person I stand by my opinion that if you sign a contract, you ought to
read it first, and if the breeder isn't truly selling you the dog then it is
your fault, not theirs, that you went ahead with it. I adore my dogs, every
one, including my funny little pets that can't be shown or bred, and yes, I
have them. Like many Cavalier owners, I have too many dogs, too. But I
don't have any, not one,
that I owe people puppies back on, and the only dog I know of that I have any
right to puppies back from is one for whom I GAVE a dear friend a
co-ownership. She didn't ask for it, either.
You asked if I wanted people to shop for bargains, and I don't know where
you came up with that idea.....I did not discuss money at all. My point is
and was that it is wrong to blame only the seller......contracts are signed
by both the seller and the buyer. The buyer has to take some of the
responsibility for entering into a contract that is basically a pyramid
scheme. Obviously, not everyone breeding Cavaliers sells them on those
terms, and equally obviously, not everyone buying Cavaliers buys them on
those terms. Yes, there are people
who only sell that way, and so long as people keep buying from them, they'll
continue to do it. If there's no market for puppies sold with major strings
on them, then those people will either stop breeding so much (because the
people who breed the most are the ones who sell that way, usually) or stop
selling with all those strings.
It's no surprise to anyone that I have very strong opinions. I believe
that it is possible to purchase wonderful Cavaliers without signing away your
rights to do with them as you will.
As far as mentoring goes, I mentor people and I have been and still am
mentored by others...one's choices of mentor (god, I hate that word) should
be very carefully made. It is difficult to try to help someone who is
constantly arguing about everything.
Peggy
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