I have to throw in my two cents on some statements in posts recently. Jeannie wrote: << In the sheer numbers bred, some would classify me as "commercial" >>
You finally posted something I agree with! Jeannie wrote: ( Hard to cut down on litters when people keep ordering pups) Poor reason for breeding in my opinion, for the sake of filling orders? With all the calls I get I could breed a litter every month and home them easily but I can't see letting demand influence my breeding as a good practice for the welfare of the breed. Laura wrote: << all my dogs are either from or go back to top English kennels.>> Keep in mind "Top Kennel" can be very subjective. I have heard some people refer to some breeders/Kennels as "Top" where others think of the same kennels as nothing special. Breeding a long time, Mass Breeding, and Financed ribbons against questionable competition can often put people/kennels on the list of "Top" who others don't feel belong there. Sometimes high quality can get confused with well known. And of course high quality also is often well known and wins a lot so sorting out which for which usually comes down to personal opinions. I don't know the background of your imports Laura so please nobody mistake this comment as a derogatory statement against any particular breeder or kennel. It just came to mind when I saw the comment "Top Kennel" Annette wrote: <> length of time does not always reflect depth of knowledge, though I do follow this statement and have a couple of breeders who have been doing this for years I rely on to get me through my knowledge gaps. And I have plenty of gaps. I am very grateful to these people who have been there and done that and think no book, vet, or other resource can replace someone who you trust and who has the hands on experience to help, especially in stressful or critical situations. Leanne wrote: << I am just curious as to how many dogs would have to be affected (percent?) before you would consider something to be serious enough to screen?>> An excellent question. I think there are also other factors that impact, at least my decision, on what to test for. Seriousness of the malady. Frequency of required testing. Incidence of the malady appearing in the pedigree of the dogs I am breeding. Leanne wrote: <<So about 16% of cavaliers have either cataracts or retinal dysplasia.(from breeders who test eyes and therefore probably have a lower incidence,assuming they remove the ones with retinal dysplasia from their breeding programs)>> I think from my limited experience this may be a bad assumption. My first Cavalier tested positive for retinal dysplasia and I never bred her though I would have loved to. Quite a large number of breeders, some well known told me to go ahead and breed her despite the test results. Sometimes when a test is failed the result is disregarded instead of the dog from the program. Jeannie wrote: <<it seems like that when we share different experiences, anyone who is "out of line" is scolded - that old "group think" thing in operation!?? >> I think both the "seasoned breeders" and the "pet owners" and the "newbies" all at times tend to use what has been described here as "group think" and I think it is amusing that each is trying to categorize the other with it. Many old timers are set in their ways and because " I have been doing this for over XX years and have never" doesn't mean you shouldn't be open to other methods and options. Maybe you were good over this time.. maybe you were lucky. Maybe both. Sometimes the old guard is too set in stone for me and quite content in their old established ways. And I have no tolerance for those who think you have no right to an opinion if you have not "paid your dues". Many newbies seem to spend their days searching media and therfore can quote all kinds of references for something they have never seen, swearing this is the way it is. Anyone can write a book, publishers really will take anyones money. Reading seldom lives up in quality of learning experience to doing. Many pet people blast breeders for every fault ever found in a Cavalier. There are so many controllable and some uncontrollable factors to each situation this can be unfair though I am all for holding people accountable for their actions. And of course sometimes old timers and big names think that pet people should be seen not heard. All in all most groups have fallen into the "group think" trap one time or another. Something can be learned from everyone. (even if the person in question does nothing but serve as a bad example... something is learned.) Personally I get tired of people trying to bully or pressure anyone into silence. Witholding opinions limits information. Sometimes valuable information sometimes not. But there is no harm in letting people speak. Peggy wrote: << anyone who doesn't swarm to have the latest health tests is condemned out of hand by those of you who test everyone for everything>> This happens some times. It also happens some times that those who don't test for some things that others do try to discredit the value of that additional testing. My opinion is everyone should be testing hearts yearly. I also choose to test eyes though I may not do it yearly on those I never intend to breed. I certify hips but only on those I intend to breed at this point. I don't try to impose my opinions on others and I dislike it just as much when those who want to test more are ridiculed or attempts made to discredit the value of the test. Whether a test or not is warranted is a matter of opinion I would think but the value of a test is that you know for sure if the condition exists and this should not be diminished in any way. It is a decision whereby value has to measured against cost and risk. Each must make their own decision on what is the right balance. When it comes to testing where I think the pressure should fall is on everyone to disclose what they do test for, when, and all results to be made public. Its the secrets and mis-information that cause the most damage. And if this ever happens, the available information in a public forum will drive buyers, breeders, and the percentage of testing as well as areas. Peggy wrote: << I also think that people who don't breed should not enter into discussions between breeders....>> I think anyone should be able to enter into discussions. The value goes up when the diversity of the audiance increases. There is a list of "breeders" who only allow people who think and act like them to join. If you speak against accepted behavours you are ousted. I found in the past and still find from posts shared with me their threads to be repetitive and boring for the most part in comparison to other lists, not to mention far less informative as those with a more diverse audiance. Peggy wrote: <<on the other hand, my definition of a breeder may not be the same as yours. To me, having a few litters doesn't make one a breeder........>> I think many peoples definition of "breeder" varies. I agree having a few litters does not make one a breeder. What is a few? I also feel having lots of litters doesn't make one a breeder, maybe by Websters but not in my personal definition. If it did puppy millers would be breeders. To me they are millers not breeders. The term breeder holds little value to me as it has such varying definitions. Or is everyone who breeds dogs a breeder but sub classifications come into play like good breeder, bad breeder, experienced breeder, long time breeder, new breeder, etc..) Regardless, when people ask me if I am a breeder I reply that we have bred one litter and plan to breed on occassion in the future. If I do this for 50 years and 50 litters I will probably never want to be referred to as a "breeder" mainly because I do not want to be associated with some of the behaviours and practices that some viewed as "long time seasoned breeders" or "serious breeders" adhere to. The term "Breeder" provides far less value in determining the quality of dogs someone produces then the evaluation of the actions (or lack there of) surrounding the breeding of those same dogs. Peggy wrote: <<Why every discussion on this list turns into a name calling contest is beyond me...it doesn't happen on my other lists>> Many lists are restrictive and limited to people who think and act alike. Those who match the opinions of being worthy of whomever runs the list. These lists will tend to have less contested discussion as the audiance is weaned of people with opinions formed from differing backgrounds. I think that is a shame and usually those setting up those forums care far less about learning and sharing information then they do in surrounding themselves with people of like mind who will re-enforce their opinions. I think Kim (and Cindy before) have done a fantastic job of assuring all types get a voice. On this list nobody has to be certified as worthy to post an opinion. I hope that never changes. Peggy wrote: << My advice to new breeders is to find an experienced breeder near you who is willing to HELP you...lots of people will>> This is truly the best advice. The only thing I would add is find one who is willing to help you without making you an indebted servant or insisting you mortgage your first 5 years of breeding to their benefit. Many will help you and ask nothing back in return. Those are the gems who really care. Myra wrote: << People who are respected enough to have been published, versus people who like to yak away on the email lists>> There is always someone who will publish a book for you if you have the money. There is no test or certification prerequisite. Some authors really know what they are talking about. So do some people who choose to share information via the internet forums. And in both forums there are some without a clue. Some of my opinions, for what they are worth Dave CastleMyst Cavaliers http://members.aol.com/CMystCavs ========================================================= "Magic Commands": to stop receiving mail for awhile, click here and send the email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]?body=SET%20CKCS-L%20NOMAIL to start it up gain click here: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]?body=SET%20CKCS-L%20MAIL E-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] for assistance. Search the Archives... http://apple.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ckcs-l.html All e-mail sent through CKCS-L is Copyright 2002 by its original author.
