I'm not asking that the Java legacy be hidden, just that a way be provided to support newcomers so they don't have to figure it all out to get going. Or that the bits they have to deal with are a little more clear. And as I said, I think that some environments are getting close to what I'm looking for.
What I'm looking for is certainly feasible. Processing does it beautifully and it's Java. Click a link in a browser to download. Simple install (in Mac OS X drag one icon to the Applications folder). Double click to launch. Get an IDE with an editor window. Enter some code, press the little play button and it runs. BTW another single click makes an applet with an html folder that loads it (but that's based on the applet-centric nature of Processing -- I wouldn't expect that for Clojure). There's plenty that a sophisticated developer might complain about, but it is trivial to get going with an environment in which you can also complete serious work, and it's all Java based but you never have to see a classpath or do any command line configuration or download extra stuff etc. Want to use another library? There's one place to put it and your Processing code will always find it there. Certainly some people will want to do things that demand a richer IDE or a more flexible way of managing resources, etc., but the beginner doesn't have to deal with that stuff and many real projects don't require dealing with anything more than what's provided in that first simple download. As I said, I think that a couple Clojure-related projects are getting close to this. I'm just arguing that going that final step to real simplicity of setup for a beginner would make a big difference for some real users. Jason: Your teaching methods might be great, but they're not the only way to go. When I teach Lisp or Scheme I generally start with a REPL, then move on to code in a single file, and then eventually a couple of files just to break things up. My students can be playing with ways to write interesting algorithms that do interesting things (e.g. big chunks of a standard AI curriculum) long before they would have any real reason to deal with the kind of setup procedures or environmental complexity that current Clojure environments require. -Lee On Jun 28, 2010, at 10:54 PM, Jason Smith wrote: > I just have to mention that what some people on this thread are asking > for may just not be feasible. The Java legacy behind Clojure can't > realistically be hidden. Nor should it be. > > Clojure is very tied to the JVM, with all its power and all its > complexities. Eclipse and IDEA and NetBeans are facts of life in this > arena. JARs and Maven and classpaths are also facts of life. > > I don't believe you help someone by working very hard to hide all > that. Java is what it is. > > If I were teaching Clojure in the classroom, I would start the > students with the template for a real project that was suitable to get > them started, rather than searching for something that hid all the > details. Maven, Subversion, Eclipse, and CounterClockwise. Check out > the base project, branch it, and go for it. > > If you are going to go to all the trouble to work with Clojure, you > might as well be exposed to the reality of a semi-production Clojure > project. Put the waterwings on the kid, but then throw him in the > deep end. If he can't swim, he isn't ready for macros anyway. > -- Lee Spector, Professor of Computer Science School of Cognitive Science, Hampshire College 893 West Street, Amherst, MA 01002-3359 lspec...@hampshire.edu, http://hampshire.edu/lspector/ Phone: 413-559-5352, Fax: 413-559-5438 Check out Genetic Programming and Evolvable Machines: http://www.springer.com/10710 - http://gpemjournal.blogspot.com/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Clojure" group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
