Hi Mike, I think this is more about convenience than simplicity. In both Unix and Java deployment is complex, and often complicated as well. In spite of this, small, one-off things should be convenient to deploy, and Unix does this better in some contexts.
There is no reason we can't make one-off scripting convenient in Clojure. The specific example you raised (deploying one-off scripts) could be addressed by a standard launcher. Several have been written, and we need to take the simplest design and include it in Clojure. There is already a ticket for this: https://www.assembla.com/spaces/clojure/tickets/366-multiplatform-command-line-clojure-launcher, and I would love to see it in the next release. That said, your example was one representative example of a general problem. Inconvenience bubbles up from the Java ecosystem in many places. Fortunately, these inconveniences are easier to fix in Clojure that elsewhere, since Clojure is such a simple language. :-) Cheers, Stu > On Fri, 10 Sep 2010 00:03:22 -0700 (PDT) > Meikel Brandmeyer <m...@kotka.de> wrote: > >> Hi, >> >> On 9 Sep., 20:46, Mike Meyer <mwm-keyword-googlegroups. >> 620...@mired.org> wrote: >> >>> The first problem with that is that this stuff seems show up >>> *everywhere* in Javaland. It's not just web apps, it's pretty much >>> anything. >> >> You just lost me completely with your argumentation. I wrote a small >> desktop utility (simple problem, simple solution, simple program) >> which is distributed to different locations in the company. It works >> on Windows and Unix w/o adaption to the system. Download jar and >> double-click / execute via java -jar. It works without library version >> hell, complicated Makefiles, system differences and other shenanigans. >> I'm quite willing to pay more complexity upfront to have it easier in >> the end. > > Ok, let's see how this goes: > > With simple things are simple tools, for a simple problem with a > simple solution and a simple program, the solution goes like this: > > 1) Write program in chosen unix-friendly interpreted language. > 2) Distribute program text file. > > Users can then run it via double-clicking (mac & windows), running it > directly on the command line (mac & unix) or - under extreme duress - > running it via the interpreter on the command line. > > As far as I can tell, to do the same thing with Java tools, the steps > are: > > 1) Write program in chosen language that runs on the JVM. > 2) Compile program to class file(s). > 3) Use some tool to create a manifest file. > 4) Run jar to create jar file. > 5) Distribute jar file. > > Users can then run it via double-clicking (mac & windows) or via the > interpreter on the command line (mac & unix). There is no option to > run it directly on the command line. > > Possibly some tool will do steps 3 and 4 in single step for you. So > the Javaland tools take at least twice as many steps, and deliver a > solution that's harder to use in some cases. Of course, I'm not as > familiar with Javaland tools as I am Unix tools, so maybe I got it > wrong. If so, *please* tell me the better way! > >> It is obvious that Clojure doesn't fit your needs. Then simply don't >> use it. > > Wrong. It may be that the Java infrastructure that Clojure runs in is > baroque enough that I won't be willing to use it. Then the same would > be true of any language running on the JVM. On the other hand, a > Clojure that ran on, oh, Parrot just for instance, wouldn't have any > of these problems. > > <mike > -- > Mike Meyer <m...@mired.org> http://www.mired.org/consulting.html > Independent Network/Unix/Perforce consultant, email for more information. > > O< ascii ribbon campaign - stop html mail - www.asciiribbon.org > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups "Clojure" group. > To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com > Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your > first post. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Clojure" group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
