One lesson I would share is that things are usually much quicker than we expect. Always prove it is too slow before believing your intuition.
On 13 January 2015 at 16:28, MS <5lvqbw...@sneakemail.com> wrote: > If I come up with anything that might usefully tie Clojure data structures > to JavaFX UI elements in a clean way, I may release it on github. For now > it's just one or two .clj files with all my random monkey-coding, using lots > of half-examples from various sources, which is pretty much how I learn. I > played around with Seesaw (Swing-based) for a little bit, but it started to > get a little too abstract for me, and anyway, as a friend of mine recently > said, Swing looks like ass, even if you set it to look like the native > platform, and I need my app to be "rich", etc. There's also a certain part > of me that feels that "all these" asynchronous libraries out there (react? > core.async? I really don't know what I'm talking about [I'm a hardware > engineer]), add a lot of overhead with threads, etc., and I may be wrong, > but it feels like there would need to be fewer layers between clicking the > mouse and having something show up. I believe any cad/drawing/design tool > needs to be as reactive and real-time as any game, so max 16ms latency. I'm > not saying I have any evidence these libraries are slow... I'm just saying > it feels like overkill when I'm not writing a big web server or anything. > I'm probably wrong. > > On Tuesday, January 13, 2015 at 8:05:40 AM UTC-8, tbc++ wrote: >> >> I've long thought that the Clojure world needs a JavaFX/React hybrid. >> JavaFX2's API is extremely consistent, making it quite easy to program >> against, but yes it still requires bindings and in-place mutation. >> >> However a React-like diff-ing engine on it would be quite impressive. But >> now you're into the fun land of writing a library in order to write your >> app. >> >> On Tue, Jan 13, 2015 at 8:15 AM, Colin Yates <colin...@gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>> Wow, there is a lot to deal with :), so let me throw out some ideas: >>> - have you considered building a web-app instead of a desktop app? If >>> so, have a look at one of the react based languages (om or reagent would be >>> my choice). Alternatively take a look at other >>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Functional_reactive_programming libraries. >>> >>> It is a different way of working, but its programming model restricts you >>> in a way that removes many problems (if you see what I mean). >>> >>> Also, I would be reaching for an in-memory database (assuming a server >>> isn't involved) about now, datatomic would be the obvious choice. >>> >>> I don't think what you are trying to do is stupid, I do think you might >>> want to do some thought experiments about different architectures and >>> paradigms (specifically FRP related paradigms). >>> >>> Oh, and have a quick scan through http://swannodette.github.io/, there >>> are a few "mind-changing" posts. >>> >>> On Monday, 12 January 2015 18:53:07 UTC, MS wrote: >>>> >>>> (Cross-posted on StackOverflow) >>>> >>>> I'm trying to design a desktop UI for schematics, layout, drawing stuff. >>>> Just looking for high level advice from actual software designers. >>>> >>>> Assuming an in-memory "database", (clojure map of arbitrary depth for >>>> all user data, and possibly another one for application preferences, etc.), >>>> I'm examining how to do the model-view-controller thing on these, where the >>>> data may be rendered *and modified by* any one or more of: >>>> >>>> 1. A standalone text field that shows a single parameter, such as box >>>> width. >>>> 2. An "inspector" type of view that shows multiple parameters of a >>>> selected object, such as box width, height, color, checkboxes, etc. >>>> 3. A table/spreadsheet type of view that shows multiple parameters of >>>> multiple objects, potentially the whole database >>>> 4. A graphical rendering of the whole thing, such as both schematic and >>>> layout view. >>>> >>>> Modifying any one of these should show up immediately in every other >>>> active view, both text and graphical, not after clicking "ok"... so no >>>> modal >>>> boxes allowed. If for some reason the table view, an inspector view, and a >>>> graphical rendering are all in view, dragging the corner of the box >>>> graphically should immediately show up in the text, etc. >>>> >>>> The platform in question is JavaFX, but I'd like a clean separation >>>> between UI and everything else, so I want to avoid `bind`ing in the JFX >>>> sense, as that ties my design data very tightly to JFX Properties, >>>> increases >>>> the graininess of the model, and forces me to work outside the standard >>>> clojure functions for dealing with data, and/or deal heavily with the whole >>>> `getValue`/`setValue` world. >>>> >>>> I'm still assuming at least *some* statefulness/mutability, and the use >>>> of built-in Clojure functionality such as the ability to `add-watch` on an >>>> atom/var/ref and let the runtime signal dependent functions. >>>> >>>> Platform-specific interaction will rest tightly with the actual UI, such >>>> as reifying `ActionListener`s, and dealing with `ObservableValue`s etc., >>>> and >>>> will attempt to minimize the reliance on things like JavaFX `Property` for >>>> actual application data. I'm not entertaining FRP for this. >>>> >>>> I don't mind too much extending JFX interfaces or making up my own >>>> protocols to use application-specific `defrecord`s, but I'd prefer for the >>>> application data to remain as straight Clojure data, unsullied by the >>>> platform. >>>> >>>> The question is how to set this all up, with closest adherence to the >>>> immutable model and minimal (or well-bounded) dependence on JFX. I see a >>>> few options: >>>> >>>> 1. Fine-grain: Each parameter value/primitive (ie Long, Double, >>>> Boolean, or String) is an atom, and each view which can modify the value >>>> "reaches in" as far as it needs to in the database to change the value. >>>> This could suck as there could potentially be thousands of individual >>>> values >>>> (for example points on a hand-drawn curve), and will require lots of >>>> `(deref...)` junk. I believe this is how JFX would want to do this, with >>>> giant arrays of Properties at the leaf nodes, etc., which feels bloated. >>>> With this approach it doesn't seem much better than just coding it up in >>>> Java/C++. >>>> 2. Medium-grain: Each object/record in the database is an atom of a >>>> Clojure map. The entire map is replaced when any one of its values >>>> changes. >>>> Fewer total atoms to deal with, and allows for example long arrays of >>>> straight-up numbers for various things. But this gets complicated when >>>> some >>>> objects in the database require more nesting than others. >>>> 3. Coarse-grain: There is just one atom: the database. Any time >>>> anything changes, the entire database is replaced, and every view needs to >>>> re-render its particular portion. This feels a bit like using a hammer to >>>> swat a fly, and a naive implementation would require everything to >>>> re-render >>>> all the time. But I still think this is the best trade off, as any >>>> primitive has a clear access path from the root node, whether it is >>>> accessed >>>> on a per-primitive level or per-record level. >>>> >>>> I also need the ability for one data template to be instantiated many >>>> times. So for example if the user changes a symbol or shape which is used >>>> in multiple places, a single edit will apply everywhere. I believe this >>>> also requires some type of "pointer"-like behavior. I think I can store a >>>> atom to the model, then instantiate as needed, and it can work in any of >>>> the >>>> above grain models. >>>> >>>> Any other approaches? Is trying to do a GUI editor-like tool in a >>>> functional language just stupid? >>>> Thanks >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "Clojure" group. >>> To post to this group, send email to clo...@googlegroups.com >>> Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with >>> your first post. >>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>> clojure+u...@googlegroups.com >>> For more options, visit this group at >>> http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en >>> --- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >>> "Clojure" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >>> email to clojure+u...@googlegroups.com. >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >> >> >> >> >> -- >> “One of the main causes of the fall of the Roman Empire was that–lacking >> zero–they had no way to indicate successful termination of their C >> programs.” >> (Robert Firth) > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups "Clojure" group. > To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com > Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your > first post. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en > --- > You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the > Google Groups "Clojure" group. > To unsubscribe from this topic, visit > https://groups.google.com/d/topic/clojure/Ut-HkNTqRUo/unsubscribe. > To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to > clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Clojure" group. 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