On Fri, Sep 11, 2015 at 9:54 PM, Adam Miller <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Fri, Sep 11, 2015 at 6:09 PM, Victor Costan <[email protected]> wrote: > > On Fri, Sep 11, 2015 at 12:59 PM, Adam Miller > > <[email protected]> wrote: > >> > >> I'm pretty neutral on B or C. I don't really care and also don't think > it > >> should even remotely be a concern of ours. Not only do we not have > >> testing for it but we don't even have the building blocks in place to > >> work towards testing it. VirtualBox is bad and those who use it should > >> feel bad.[0] > > > > > > I think this attitude is detrimental to advancing Fedora's vision [1], > > particularly the "widespread" in "free culture is welcoming and > widespread", > > and I will explain my reasoning below. > > > >> > >> This is probably not a popular opinion and I'm fine with that, but we > >> would have to install something that we very publicly speak out > >> against in order to test this. I'm not yet ready to throw out Fedora's > >> values for the sake of some OS X user's convenience but that's just > >> me. > >> > >> -AdamM > >> > >> [0] - https://lkml.org/lkml/2011/10/6/317 > > > > > > This paragraph dismisses a lot of complex realities as "some OS X user's > > convenience". > > > > First, I have little control over what my collaborators use, and I have a > > hard requirement that I have to be able to work with them. Vagrant and > > VirtualBox are the lesser evil I could find that lets my collaborators > > quickly build a Fedora staging environment on their computers, and this > is a > > hard requirement for being able to use Fedora in production. VirtualBox > > might be crappy code, so it violates the "First" core value [2], but > unlike > > the altrenatives, at least it doesn't violate "Freedom". > > > > Second, a user that is interested in Fedora's Vagrant images *wants* to > > deploy Fedora somewhere. I wouldn't care about the Vagrant images if I > > wouldn't plan to have Fedora in my production system. If I can run > Fedora in > > Vagrant, using VirtualBox, on an OS X development machine, then I'll end > up > > deploying it to many VMs or physical boxes, when I ship my software. > > > > For a multitude of non-trivial but boring reasons, I am stuck using OS X > on > > my dev machine for the near future. I use Fedora 22 in production, > however, > > meaning that I installed it on ~10 physical / virtual machines, and that > > most of my computation happens on a Fedora machine. The Vagrant > VirtualBox > > image for Fedora 23 is currently broken, and until that gets resolved, I > > won't be able to switch my projects to Fedora 23. > > > > I really, really want to use Fedora. However, if it ever gets too > painful, > > I'll have to switch away. In that case, my collaborators will not be > exposed > > to Fedora at all anymore, and my computation will be handled by something > > else. > > > > Please don't dismiss people like me. I think that network effects will > lose > > you more users than you think. > > It would be great if you'd read the entire thread. I've admitted I was > wrong and apologized for it multiple times. > > -AdamM > Sorry about that, and thank you! Victor
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