With due respect to all who contributed to this discussion, please note that
"how many angels can dance on a pinhead?" has been answered a long time ago.
Making ANY claims, pro/con, is not useful without a full disclosure of the
context.
The GPS signal strength is well known and relatively constant at sea level.
C/No: ~ 37 to 45dB-Hz.
What is different for every receiver/installation are the antenna gain and
noise, front end noise temperature and filter bandwidth, the quantization
schemes, the quality of signal processing, and so on. So, please do not try to
compare apples to tomatoes. (Both are fruits, but....)
I have a little knowledge of GPS, enough to make smart ass comments. But I
also been the telecommunication engineer on Topex that measured the sea level
to centimeter accuracy using GPS. That should be better then sleeping at a
particular hotel.
Leslie
retired JPL engineer.
--------------------------------------------
On Sat, 10/3/15, Tim Goodyear via CnC-List <cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:
Subject: Re: Stus-List IPad Question...
To: "cnc-list@cnc-list.com" <cnc-list@cnc-list.com>
Cc: "Tim Goodyear" <timg...@gmail.com>
Date: Saturday, October 3, 2015, 4:28 PM
Jerome,
practical experience from several sources is very different
to what you suggest. It works.
Tim
On Oct 3,
2015, at 6:11 PM, Jerome Tauber via CnC-List <cnc-list@cnc-list.com>
wrote:
OK - This is getting silly.
Do you really believe the tiny GPS chip and antenna in a
cell phone or Ipad is going to outperform a dedicated
handheld GPS and pick up signals where the handheld GPS will
not without some sort of assistance. For a navigation message to travel from
the
satellite to the receiver, they must be sent on a carrier
frequency. In the original GPS design, two frequencies were
utilized; one at 1575.42 MHz(10.23 MHz × 154) called L1;
and a second at 1227.60 MHz (10.23 MHz × 120), called
L2. The satellite output is about 25 watts. These
signals are quite weak when they reach earth and will not
penetrate the metal roof on your house or your car and may
be attenuated by the fiberglass roof on your boat to the
point where they may not be readable by an Iphone or
Ipad. That's why your handheld GPS will not work in
your basement. The only reason the Ipad or Iphone will
work is that it is assisted. Even it you don't have
a cellular connection you probably have wifi in your house
that is being used for the assist. A typical
A-GPS-enabled receiver will use a data connection
(Internet, cellular
or other) to contact the assistance server for aGPS
information. If it
also has functioning autonomous GPS, it may use standalone
GPS which does not depend on the wifi or
cellular network but then must depend
entirely on the GPS signal from the satellite and therefore
will not work if that signal is not strong
enough.
Some A-GPS devices do not have the option of falling back to
standalone or autonomous GPS. Many
mobile phones combine A-GPS and other location services
including Wi-Fi Positioning System and cell and sometimes a
hybrid positioning system. Accurate
location requires a fix on at least 3
satellites, and these signals do not
penetrate buildings (even the roof
of a car can attenuate the GPS
signal to where it is not useful). So,
if you are not in view of 3
satellites, A-GPS can estimate your location based on 2
satellites plus
cell tower data (less accurate). If you aren't in view
of at least 2
satellites, the iPhone uses internet
WiFi or cell-tower triangulation, which is
not very accurate. Jerry
-----Original
Message-----
From: Rick Brass via CnC-List <cnc-list@cnc-list.com>
To: cnc-list <cnc-list@cnc-list.com>
Cc: Rick Brass <rickbr...@earthlink.net>
Sent: Sat, Oct 3, 2015 3:38 pm
Subject: Re: Stus-List IPad Question...
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I have an IPad 3 which was a gift.
It has cellular capability (so it has a built in GPS), but
has never been connected to cellular service. The GPS
function operates perfectly below decks and everywhere else.
I have never had a problem receiving GPS data, even inside
my house which has a metal roof. I can’t say the same for
the handheld GPSs (multiple) that I carry on the boat as
backups for the ditch bag.
I have SKIPPER on the IPad for a
navigation app. (Selected that one because of a desire for
Bermuda charts when I was loading the IPad, and Bermuda
region is included as part of North America so there was no
cost.) Skipper uses NOAA charts, and the app checks for NOAA
updates to the charts that have been downloaded to the
tablet each time the app is turned on while connected to
WiFi. On the last two deliveries I made, I found that my
charts were more up to date than the charts on the boat’s
chartplotter. Plus I run the Active Captain Companion on the
IPad, which gives warnings about hazards to navigation that
are within a specified angle and distance from the boat’s
heading. One of the Raymarine plotters on a boat offered
this feature, but the charts were out of date. The tablet
was more accurate.
If you are getting your AIS
information off the net, you should be aware of a couple of
things: The information is not current, not all AIS
information is included, and the AIS repeaters on the
Internet have the capability of being hacked.
I seem to recall that a number of
manufacturers are making instruments and radios that can be
connected to tablets and phones by using Bluetooth. Why not
just use the Bluetooth connection instead of building a WiFi
network on the boat?
My IPad was a gift, so it cost me
nothing. I agree with Dennis. A WATERPROOF and shock
resistant Galaxy tablet is a bit more than $250, but still
less than half the cost of an IPad. Plus the software is
generally less expensive. I have more invested in the Otter
Box and LifePruf cases for my IPad than a galaxy tablet
would have cost me.
But the discussion started with
David’s question about using an old IPad for a plotter. If
the IPad had cellular capability (so it has a GPS) go for
it. You will spend something up to $50 (and maybe less) on
chart plotter software and charts, and most of the other
navigation apps you will want like Active Captain and Drag
Queen are free. If no built in GPS, put your music on the
IPad and buy a Galaxy tablet with cellular
capability.
Rick Brass
Washington, NC
From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com]
On Behalf Of Jerome Tauber via CnC-List
Sent: Friday, October 02, 2015 11:27 AM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Cc: Jerome Tauber <jrtau...@aol.com>
Subject: Re: Stus-List IPad Question...
GPS built into
phones and pads is limited and depends on cellular service
being available. Moreover, reception below decks is poor
to non-existent. Also, with wifi you can transmit AIS and
any other NMEA info such as wind speed, depth, and even
radar. It's a different ballgame entirely. You
can even receive on multiple Pads and from anywhere on the
boat. Your Ipad or Android becomes a complete navigation
system using an app such as INavx and is available anywhere
on the boat. Of course, you must have nmea sensors to plug
into the wifi router. Jerry J&J
-----Original Message-----
From: Dennis C. via CnC-List <cnc-list@cnc-list.com>
To: CnClist <cnc-list@cnc-list.com>
Cc: Dennis C. <capt...@gmail.com>
Sent: Fri, Oct 2, 2015 11:17 am
Subject: Re: Stus-List IPad Question...
or you can buy a 10" Samsung
Galaxy Tab with GPS for $250. Add Navionics for $10.
Poof! Chartplotter.
Dennis C.
On
Fri, Oct 2, 2015 at 10:08 AM, Jerome Tauber via CnC-List
<cnc-list@cnc-list.com>
wrote:
I have been looking into this and
there is an excellent solution. You can plug your onboard
GPS into a wifi transmitter and receive the signal anywhere
on your boat on your Ipad. This is compatible with INavx
and other software. You can also transmit AIS if you have
an AIS receiver and receive it on the Ipad (or any Android
device) through INavx or other software. This is the
future of onboard navigation. Here are some transmitters
though there are many others. Jerry -
J&J
Digital Yacht NavLink NMEA 200
Wireless Data Server
by Digital
Yacht
List Price: $833.92
Price: $495.77
You Save: $338.15 (41%)
Ships from and sold by OJ Commerce.
Digital Yacht NMEA to Wireless Wi-Fi
Adapter - 4800 Baud
by Digital
Yacht
List Price: $458.92
Price: $280.37
You Save: $178.55 (39%)
Ships from and sold by OJ Commerce.
1 - Digital Yacht iNAVConnect
Wireless Wi-Fi Router
by Digital
Yacht
Price: $232.67
Ships from and sold by TheFactoryDepot.
-----Original Message-----
From: David via CnC-List <cnc-list@cnc-list.com>
To: CNC CNC <cnc-list@cnc-list.com>
Cc: David <davidrisc...@msn.com>
Sent: Fri, Oct 2, 2015 10:37 am
Subject: Stus-List IPad Question...
OK...so I have this IPad I never
use. I'm thinking good for chartplotting software for
the 2X (maybe) a year that I need a chartplotter.
Needs a GPS. I shop and see "Bad Elf"s"
for $150+. Huh? I bought a GPS dongle for my laptop for
$20. Is this more of Apples proprietary product BS?
(sorry Apple users...I am not a big fan of Apple)
Are there other solutions this non-tech, non-Apple guy could
use?
Thank in advance!
David F. Risch
1981 40-2
(401) 419-4650
(cell)
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