Stiffness in yacht design refers to the vessel's ability to resist heel. Whether that arises from weight stability (deep draft ballast, e.g. C&C30) or from form stability (flat and wide hull shape, e.g. Jeanneau 50) is irrelevant in the true definition of stability.
But in terms of how the boat feels... If you plot the stability curves (x = heel angle °, y = righting moment) of both vessels, the C&C30 will have a gradual initial slope. The J50DS would have a very steep initial slope. So the J50DS resists heel initially because of its raft-like hull shape...it "feels" stiff. After about 20° heel, it really gets sloppy. The C&C30 on the otherhand will have almost constant resistance to heel until about 60-80°. The C&C30, from a stability standpoint is the safer vessel. However, displacement matters A LOT in sea way. Light vessels get much more unruly. That's not to say heavier is safer. But you will "feel" more in control. Riley Anderson Freight Train, C&C 38-2 North Cove Old Saybrook, CT USA On Fri, Sep 26, 2025, 7:28 PM Jim Watts via CnC-List <cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote: > Stiff to me is the ability to stand up under sail and it depends on its > design and construction. Strong will ideally be part of the equation. > Our C&C 29-2 was a more tender boat than our 35. A stiff boat isn't > necessarily a fast boat; we could sail rings around a C&C30-1 in our 29, > but we did it at ten degrees more heel. *Yacht Design According to Perry *or > Steve Killing's *Yacht Design Explained* are both very informative > reads. > > Jim Watts > Paradigm Shift > C&C 35 Mk III > Victoria, BC > > > On Fri, 26 Sept 2025 at 15:29, David Knecht via CnC-List < > cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote: > >> Hi John and John- Looks like another C&C Rendezvous like the old days >> when Edd Shillay was around. I will be at Ft Rachel again this year, >> sometime in November, so it would be fun to hook up. I have a friend at >> TYC who is looking for a Freedom after Crockers wrecked his Freedom >> dropping it off a lift. Not sure which one he had (35 I think), but one >> thing I didn't like on his was the club footed jib that he had to go >> forward to put away. That looked like a PITA in rough conditions. I >> suspect some Freedom's have a different rig. I certainly think a self >> tacking is something to consider to make handling the boat easier, but I >> was thinking more like the Hanse track self-tacker or Sabre Spirit that you >> can furl. Not sure what the plus/minus of a jib boom vs. the Hanse track. >> Also, his Freedom was a relatively slow boat. I don't know if that was him >> or the boat. Not sure how that relates to your dad's Bermuda 1-2 (WOW) >> experience. >> >> BUT- can someone please define STIFF for me in this context. I don't >> even know if it is the right term for what I am thinking about because I >> have never seen it defined. I could Google it, but I would rather hear >> from sailors what you think it means. Is it literally how strong the boat >> is, or is it more about its ability to handle difficult conditions well. >> Those seem to me to be different design challenges. >> >> David Knecht >> Emeritus Rear Commodore/Thames Yacht Club >> Emeritus Professor/University of Connecticut >> Basketball Capital of the World >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Sep 26, 2025, at 4:44 PM, John Read via CnC-List < >> cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote: >> >> David. Will you haul at Fort Rachel again? The Jenny 44 will as well. >> Mccrea and I will.as well. John Read >> >> On Fri, Sep 26, 2025, 4:08 PM John McCrea via CnC-List < >> cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote: >> >>> My dad is 86 and has 100k on his Freedom 32. Raced singlehanded to >>> Bermuda 15 times in a row and did the Atlantic circle in it. My mom has not >>> been on the boat in over a decade, but he still sailed it all over Maine >>> singlehanded each year (including this one)The 40 is also a great boat. >>> They also made the Legacy powerboats, and they are pretty. >>> >>> >>> >>> Friends here in Mystic just bought a 2021 Jenny 44. It has power and is >>> as stiff as nails. Since you are local, I can connect you if you want. >>> >>> >>> >>> John McCrea >>> >>> Talisman >>> >>> 1979 36-1 >>> >>> >>> >>> *From:* Don Kern via CnC-List <cnc-list@cnc-list.com> >>> *Sent:* Friday, September 26, 2025 3:50 PM >>> *To:* David Knecht via CnC-List <cnc-list@cnc-list.com> >>> *Cc:* Don Kern <don-k...@cox.net> >>> *Subject:* Stus-List Re: Is there a new boat in my future? >>> >>> >>> >>> David, >>> >>> If you are no longer racing, have you considered a Freedom. One of my >>> racing crew has a Freedom 38. This summer he and his wife (both late 60s) >>> cruised from Bristol, RI to the coast of Maine, all the way to Bar Harbor >>> (Acadia). They only dropped one day of sailing by staying in port due >>> inclement weather (drizzle & fog). >>> >>> I have avoided sailing on his boat, because my wife would want to come >>> along. That would be a disaster for me since I am still racing my boat. >>> I'm in my early 80s, sail as the helmsman and try to avoid >>> grinding/tailing. That's for the racing crew, all over 55. I do cruise >>> with wife, flying just my only roller furl sail (135%). >>> >>> Don Kern >>> *Fireball*, C&C 35 Mk2 >>> Bristol, RI >>> >>> On 9/26/2025 1:14 PM, David Knecht via CnC-List wrote: >>> >>> I have had my C&C 34/36 WK for 12 years and I love the boat. I race it >>> frequently single or double handed and cruise with my wife for a week or >>> two every summer. But at 72 and not getting any stronger, I am starting to >>> think about my next/last boat. Perhaps I need to be talked down by more >>> experienced sailors because this issue was precipitated by our last >>> cruise. I am by nature and experience a dinghy sailor and only came to >>> keel boats late in life, so I have limited experience on different keel >>> boats aside from mine and Caribbean charters. I don't have much of a sense >>> of how different designs and sizes of boats perform in challenging >>> conditions. >>> >>> >>> >>> Last week, my wife and I cruised from New London to Cape Cod and back. >>> On the first day it was blowing 15+ from the east (so upwind route) when we >>> left and I had a 110 genoa and a single reef in the main. All was well >>> until we left Fishers Island Sound (relatively protected and calm) and >>> entered Block Island Sound (essentially the Atlantic-chop and large waves). >>> First the main reefing line broke and I was able to stow the main so we >>> sailed the rest of the way with just the 110 genoa. It was rough enough >>> for my wife to get seasick, but the boat was doing 6+ knots close hauled, >>> so no big problem. However, the thought I kept having was that it was >>> "only" blowing 18 knots true. If it had been 20-30 knots it would have >>> been much worse and much more difficult to control the boat single handed >>> and no way to further depower. We ended up motoring part way, but that was >>> no fun either. I have never tried furling the 110 partially and it >>> certainly is not designed with that in mind. >>> >>> >>> >>> Thinking about this experience afterwards I was reminded of a charter we >>> did in the Caribbean on a Jeanneau 50DS years ago. I was sailing the boat >>> myself in nearly 30 knots of wind with main and genoa under total control, >>> healing a bit, and having a great time. The water was not rough, but I was >>> confident I could sail that boat in much stronger winds and waves and be >>> fine. I had never really understood the concept of a "stiff boat" but I >>> presume this is what it means. The Jeanneau was a stiff boat and mine was >>> not. >>> >>> >>> >>> On the return trip, it was all downwind and I had just the main up, and >>> it was supposed to blow 10-12 but by the time we hit Block Island Sound it >>> was blowing 20-30 with large following seas. It was a real challenge to >>> steer the boat in those conditions and I was running on fumes from hand >>> steering for hours by the time we hit Block Island. I didn't think the >>> wheel pilot was going to be able to handle it and never tried. I don't >>> know if any type of boat/keel/rig makes that situation easier to handle. >>> >>> >>> >>> Obviously the 34+ was designed to have 4-6 people on the rail for >>> ballast and sailing it single handed is going to have some compromises. Up >>> to 15 knots, it is no problem, but as it approaches 20, things get more >>> challenging. So I am thinking that I might need to start looking for a >>> different boat for the future. Something stiffer (is that the right term?) >>> so I don't have to be concerned about going out when it is blowing 20-30 >>> (beyond that I just won't go out by choice). But I am unclear on what >>> characteristics to look for. Is it mostly sail area/displacement ratio >>> that determines this? Is it possible to have good performance in various >>> conditions and not be overpowered in 20-30 knots? How much of a factor is >>> size or design? Can a boat be "stiff" and reasonably fast in a variety of >>> conditions? I still want to race and PHRF should compensate somewhat for >>> performance, but in my experience, "slow" boats lose to "fast" boats in >>> PHRF racing. Perhaps that is just the price I will have to pay. >>> >>> Anyway, I would love to hear the thoughts of the group on any aspect of >>> this issue. Thanks- Dave >>> >>> >>> >>> David Knecht >>> >>> S/V Aries >>> >>> 1990 C&C 34+ >>> >>> New London, CT >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Your contributions help pay the fees associated with this list and help to >>> keep it active. Please help by making a small contribution using PayPal >>> at: https://www.paypal.com/paypalme/stumurray All contributions are >>> greatly appreciated. >>> >>> >>> Your contributions help pay the fees associated with this list and help >>> to keep it active. Please help by making a small contribution using PayPal >>> at: https://www.paypal.com/paypalme/stumurray All contributions are >>> greatly appreciated. >> >> Your contributions help pay the fees associated with this list and help >> to keep it active. Please help by making a small contribution using PayPal >> at: https://www.paypal.com/paypalme/stumurray All contributions are >> greatly appreciated. >> >> >> Your contributions help pay the fees associated with this list and help >> to keep it active. Please help by making a small contribution using PayPal >> at: https://www.paypal.com/paypalme/stumurray All contributions are >> greatly appreciated. > > Your contributions help pay the fees associated with this list and help to > keep it active. Please help by making a small contribution using PayPal > at: https://www.paypal.com/paypalme/stumurray All contributions are > greatly appreciated.
Your contributions help pay the fees associated with this list and help to keep it active. Please help by making a small contribution using PayPal at: https://www.paypal.com/paypalme/stumurray All contributions are greatly appreciated.
