Regarding “a stiff boat isn’t necessarily a fast boat,” I think wind speed is a factor. I’ve seen more tender boats e.g. Santana 20s, Capri 22s heeling hard in wind that doesn’t even give me weather helm. And at 9,000 pounds, I generally get whooped in light air races by boats weighing 25-75% less than mine. But when it’s blowing 25, I can carry full sail and almost touch 8 knots while my competition is reefing to stay under control. That’s due to the stiffness of the 30 MK I.
Cheers, Randy > On Sep 26, 2025, at 5:49 PM, Riley Anderson via CnC-List > <cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote: > > Stiffness in yacht design refers to the vessel's ability to resist heel. > Whether that arises from weight stability (deep draft ballast, e.g. C&C30) or > from form stability (flat and wide hull shape, e.g. Jeanneau 50) is > irrelevant in the true definition of stability. > > But in terms of how the boat feels... > If you plot the stability curves (x = heel angle °, y = righting moment) of > both vessels, the C&C30 will have a gradual initial slope. The J50DS would > have a very steep initial slope. So the J50DS resists heel initially because > of its raft-like hull shape...it "feels" stiff. After about 20° heel, it > really gets sloppy. The C&C30 on the otherhand will have almost constant > resistance to heel until about 60-80°. > > The C&C30, from a stability standpoint is the safer vessel. However, > displacement matters A LOT in sea way. Light vessels get much more unruly. > That's not to say heavier is safer. But you will "feel" more in control. > > > Riley Anderson > Freight Train, C&C 38-2 > North Cove > Old Saybrook, CT USA > > On Fri, Sep 26, 2025, 7:28 PM Jim Watts via CnC-List <cnc-list@cnc-list.com > <mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>> wrote: >> Stiff to me is the ability to stand up under sail and it depends on its >> design and construction. Strong will ideally be part of the equation. >> Our C&C 29-2 was a more tender boat than our 35. A stiff boat isn't >> necessarily a fast boat; we could sail rings around a C&C30-1 in our 29, but >> we did it at ten degrees more heel. Yacht Design According to Perry or Steve >> Killing's Yacht Design Explained are both very informative reads. >> >> Jim Watts >> Paradigm Shift >> C&C 35 Mk III >> Victoria, BC >> >> >> On Fri, 26 Sept 2025 at 15:29, David Knecht via CnC-List >> <cnc-list@cnc-list.com <mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>> wrote: >>> Hi John and John- Looks like another C&C Rendezvous like the old days when >>> Edd Shillay was around. I will be at Ft Rachel again this year, sometime >>> in November, so it would be fun to hook up. I have a friend at TYC who is >>> looking for a Freedom after Crockers wrecked his Freedom dropping it off a >>> lift. Not sure which one he had (35 I think), but one thing I didn't like >>> on his was the club footed jib that he had to go forward to put away. That >>> looked like a PITA in rough conditions. I suspect some Freedom's have a >>> different rig. I certainly think a self tacking is something to consider >>> to make handling the boat easier, but I was thinking more like the Hanse >>> track self-tacker or Sabre Spirit that you can furl. Not sure what the >>> plus/minus of a jib boom vs. the Hanse track. Also, his Freedom was a >>> relatively slow boat. I don't know if that was him or the boat. Not sure >>> how that relates to your dad's Bermuda 1-2 (WOW) experience. >>> >>> BUT- can someone please define STIFF for me in this context. I don't even >>> know if it is the right term for what I am thinking about because I have >>> never seen it defined. I could Google it, but I would rather hear from >>> sailors what you think it means. Is it literally how strong the boat is, >>> or is it more about its ability to handle difficult conditions well. Those >>> seem to me to be different design challenges. >>> >>> David Knecht >>> Emeritus Rear Commodore/Thames Yacht Club >>> Emeritus Professor/University of Connecticut >>> Basketball Capital of the World >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>> On Sep 26, 2025, at 4:44 PM, John Read via CnC-List <cnc-list@cnc-list.com >>>> <mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>> wrote: >>>> >>>> David. Will you haul at Fort Rachel again? The Jenny 44 will as well. >>>> Mccrea and I will.as <http://will.as/> well. John Read >>>> >>>> On Fri, Sep 26, 2025, 4:08 PM John McCrea via CnC-List >>>> <cnc-list@cnc-list.com <mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>> wrote: >>>>> My dad is 86 and has 100k on his Freedom 32. Raced singlehanded to >>>>> Bermuda 15 times in a row and did the Atlantic circle in it. My mom has >>>>> not been on the boat in over a decade, but he still sailed it all over >>>>> Maine singlehanded each year (including this one)The 40 is also a great >>>>> boat. They also made the Legacy powerboats, and they are pretty. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Friends here in Mystic just bought a 2021 Jenny 44. It has power and is >>>>> as stiff as nails. Since you are local, I can connect you if you want. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> John McCrea >>>>> >>>>> Talisman >>>>> >>>>> 1979 36-1 >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> From: Don Kern via CnC-List <cnc-list@cnc-list.com >>>>> <mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>> >>>>> Sent: Friday, September 26, 2025 3:50 PM >>>>> To: David Knecht via CnC-List <cnc-list@cnc-list.com >>>>> <mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>> >>>>> Cc: Don Kern <don-k...@cox.net <mailto:don-k...@cox.net>> >>>>> Subject: Stus-List Re: Is there a new boat in my future? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> David, >>>>> >>>>> If you are no longer racing, have you considered a Freedom. One of my >>>>> racing crew has a Freedom 38. This summer he and his wife (both late >>>>> 60s) cruised from Bristol, RI to the coast of Maine, all the way to Bar >>>>> Harbor (Acadia). They only dropped one day of sailing by staying in port >>>>> due inclement weather (drizzle & fog). >>>>> >>>>> I have avoided sailing on his boat, because my wife would want to come >>>>> along. That would be a disaster for me since I am still racing my boat. >>>>> I'm in my early 80s, sail as the helmsman and try to avoid >>>>> grinding/tailing. That's for the racing crew, all over 55. I do cruise >>>>> with wife, flying just my only roller furl sail (135%). >>>>> >>>>> Don Kern >>>>> Fireball, C&C 35 Mk2 >>>>> Bristol, RI >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On 9/26/2025 1:14 PM, David Knecht via CnC-List wrote: >>>>> >>>>> I have had my C&C 34/36 WK for 12 years and I love the boat. I race it >>>>> frequently single or double handed and cruise with my wife for a week or >>>>> two every summer. But at 72 and not getting any stronger, I am starting >>>>> to think about my next/last boat. Perhaps I need to be talked down by >>>>> more experienced sailors because this issue was precipitated by our last >>>>> cruise. I am by nature and experience a dinghy sailor and only came to >>>>> keel boats late in life, so I have limited experience on different keel >>>>> boats aside from mine and Caribbean charters. I don't have much of a >>>>> sense of how different designs and sizes of boats perform in challenging >>>>> conditions. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Last week, my wife and I cruised from New London to Cape Cod and back. >>>>> On the first day it was blowing 15+ from the east (so upwind route) when >>>>> we left and I had a 110 genoa and a single reef in the main. All was >>>>> well until we left Fishers Island Sound (relatively protected and calm) >>>>> and entered Block Island Sound (essentially the Atlantic-chop and large >>>>> waves). First the main reefing line broke and I was able to stow the main >>>>> so we sailed the rest of the way with just the 110 genoa. It was rough >>>>> enough for my wife to get seasick, but the boat was doing 6+ knots close >>>>> hauled, so no big problem. However, the thought I kept having was that >>>>> it was "only" blowing 18 knots true. If it had been 20-30 knots it would >>>>> have been much worse and much more difficult to control the boat single >>>>> handed and no way to further depower. We ended up motoring part way, but >>>>> that was no fun either. I have never tried furling the 110 partially and >>>>> it certainly is not designed with that in mind. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Thinking about this experience afterwards I was reminded of a charter we >>>>> did in the Caribbean on a Jeanneau 50DS years ago. I was sailing the >>>>> boat myself in nearly 30 knots of wind with main and genoa under total >>>>> control, healing a bit, and having a great time. The water was not >>>>> rough, but I was confident I could sail that boat in much stronger winds >>>>> and waves and be fine. I had never really understood the concept of a >>>>> "stiff boat" but I presume this is what it means. The Jeanneau was a >>>>> stiff boat and mine was not. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On the return trip, it was all downwind and I had just the main up, and >>>>> it was supposed to blow 10-12 but by the time we hit Block Island Sound >>>>> it was blowing 20-30 with large following seas. It was a real challenge >>>>> to steer the boat in those conditions and I was running on fumes from >>>>> hand steering for hours by the time we hit Block Island. I didn't think >>>>> the wheel pilot was going to be able to handle it and never tried. I >>>>> don't know if any type of boat/keel/rig makes that situation easier to >>>>> handle. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Obviously the 34+ was designed to have 4-6 people on the rail for ballast >>>>> and sailing it single handed is going to have some compromises. Up to 15 >>>>> knots, it is no problem, but as it approaches 20, things get more >>>>> challenging. So I am thinking that I might need to start looking for a >>>>> different boat for the future. Something stiffer (is that the right >>>>> term?) so I don't have to be concerned about going out when it is blowing >>>>> 20-30 (beyond that I just won't go out by choice). But I am unclear on >>>>> what characteristics to look for. Is it mostly sail area/displacement >>>>> ratio that determines this? Is it possible to have good performance in >>>>> various conditions and not be overpowered in 20-30 knots? How much of a >>>>> factor is size or design? Can a boat be "stiff" and reasonably fast in a >>>>> variety of conditions? I still want to race and PHRF should compensate >>>>> somewhat for performance, but in my experience, "slow" boats lose to >>>>> "fast" boats in PHRF racing. Perhaps that is just the price I will have >>>>> to pay. >>>>> >>>>> Anyway, I would love to hear the thoughts of the group on any aspect of >>>>> this issue. Thanks- Dave >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> David Knecht >>>>> >>>>> S/V Aries >>>>> >>>>> 1990 C&C 34+ >>>>> >>>>> New London, CT >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Your contributions help pay the fees associated with this list and help >>>>> to keep it active. Please help by making a small contribution using >>>>> PayPal at: https://www.paypal.com/paypalme/stumurray All contributions >>>>> are greatly appreciated. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Your contributions help pay the fees associated with this list and help >>>>> to keep it active. Please help by making a small contribution using >>>>> PayPal at: https://www.paypal.com/paypalme/stumurray All contributions >>>>> are greatly appreciated. >>>> Your contributions help pay the fees associated with this list and help to >>>> keep it active. Please help by making a small contribution using PayPal >>>> at: https://www.paypal.com/paypalme/stumurray All contributions are >>>> greatly appreciated. >>> >>> Your contributions help pay the fees associated with this list and help to >>> keep it active. Please help by making a small contribution using PayPal >>> at: https://www.paypal.com/paypalme/stumurray All contributions are >>> greatly appreciated. >> Your contributions help pay the fees associated with this list and help to >> keep it active. Please help by making a small contribution using PayPal at: >> https://www.paypal.com/paypalme/stumurray All contributions are greatly >> appreciated. > Your contributions help pay the fees associated with this list and help to > keep it active. Please help by making a small contribution using PayPal at: > https://www.paypal.com/paypalme/stumurray All contributions are greatly > appreciated.
Your contributions help pay the fees associated with this list and help to keep it active. Please help by making a small contribution using PayPal at: https://www.paypal.com/paypalme/stumurray All contributions are greatly appreciated.
