> > Thomas L Roche wrote: > > >Struts can do pure-XML: see > > > >http://www.javaworld.com/javaworld/jw-02-2002/jw-0201-strutsxslt_p.html > > > >But can Cocoon be made to handle JSPs? Why I ask: > > > >Yes, Cocoon is cool, and JSPs are icky-poo. If one is developing a new > >site, from scratch, Cocoon would seem to be the way to go. However, > >there are a lotta JSPs out there, and one can reasonably surmise that > >the vast majority of Java-ish websites have at least some legacy JSPs. > >So consider the possible thought processes of members of two groups of > >Javans as they plan future activity: > > > > > Like this (haven't tried it myself)? > > http://xml.apache.org/cocoon/userdocs/generators/jsp-generator.html > > >* site developers/maintainers > > > > Unfortunately only a tiny minority are at present fully XML/XSL > > compliant. (I suspect: feel free to confirm/confront with real > > data.) One suspects the vast majority are "vanilla" Model 1, with a > > minority having gone to something like Struts, Velocity, etc. These > > folks aren't especially stupid or lazy, but they've got other things > > to do, and they've got legacy that is "good enough." > > > > If a "typical enduser" is motivated enough to go XML-centric, > > wouldn't it be a lot easier and less risky to migrate toward > > something like Struts (2 or 2x), than to Big Bang straight to > > Cocoon? (I know about Struts--I neglect Velocity etc because I know > > so little about them.) Or is it Real Easy to migrate JSPs to XSPs? > > > > > Cocoon is what I like to think of as 2.0-centric. Meaning it has a > higher "initial cost" but if used well, should > reduce your cost of maintaining it over time. Its not the first release > that usually hurts, its the second...third...etc. > Costs go up as your software continues to develop. Cocoon can help with > this by more completely seperating > your style, data, logic, etc. (as you cross the learning curve of > Cocoon and use it in a couple apps, that learning curve goes down) > > Is Cocoon appropriate for you farm of dreamweaver users? Probably not. > But Really if you think about it neither is JSP. > (I hear Velocity is nice for that) I suspect as the tools improve > Cocoon will be better for this as you can seperate your applications > more as far as logic and style and content, etc. XSLT has a bit of a > learning curve, but I often wonder if I'd find it so hard if I were less > of a programmer type. I think there is a lot more opportunity for > non-programmers to work with the style XSLT in the end. But case in > point. . . those tools aren't there yet. > > I don't feel that its any less risky to adopt Struts and migrate to > Cocoon than just goto Cocoon with maybe JSPs running through the JSP > generator (based on the assumption that the JSP generator is a workable > solution) and migrate those to XSPs/etc over time. The areas I'm most > concerned with Cocoon have to do with performance under load. Then > again, if its good enough for NASA...... (no mars lander jokes or you > get thwapped!) > > >* tools builders > > > > I'd like to work on Cocoon tooling, and I suspect many managers > > would too. But they've gotta think about how much resource they can > > devote to any particular project, and what the market for their > > product would be. And, again, incrementality (of effort) and > > marketing (of product) would both seem (IMHO) to favor going toward > > Struts 2x. > > > >These concerns would be mitigated if there was an easier migration > >path to Cocoon. (I.e. a larval stage before going to pupa :-) > >Is there? Or am I missing something? > > > > > Above, you see the JSP-generator. Next I give you XML-Form which even > states that its heavily influenced by struts. > http://xml.apache.org/cocoon/howto/xmlform-wizard/howto-xmlform-wizard.html > -- Danger, its work in progress. This is the last major hole in > Cocoon, its nearly plugged (hence the .81 version number), but it may > change a bit. > > * Principal flaws in Cocoon * > > The documentation is getting better but still sucks. > > The community that supports it is composed of XML and Avalon folks who > only occasionally delve into english explanations of what the heck > things are, preferring to speak XML-ian and Avalonian most of the time. > (Watch a mail list and you'll see what I mean, in fact I don't think > any of them go a whole sentence without using SoC or IoC...and if you > don't know what those stand for well you'll feel pretty lost), where the > Struts folks are generally more geared towards the rest of us. > > Marketing problem. What is Cocoon? An XML Framework? (well your > sources nor your output, nor your transformations necessarily have to be > in XML...really only the sitemap has to be XML...but then again IIRC > struts has XML config files too...), A publishing framework? (that > begs the question on what is publishing), you can have forms and reports > coming out of Cocoon. > Where, Struts is an MVC framework for JSPs simple to say. > > Heavy. Cocoon is heavier than JSP (assuming precompilation). On the > other hand, I'll bet the caching and pooling pays off under load, but it > has a heavy init time. The load testing I've done is very promising though. > > In summary, If you are satisfied with *ick* JSPs (Java-ASPs, Inverted > Servlets) and think its the greatest thing since sliced bread and never > could need or want for more stick with Struts. > > If you've got multiple content input types and sources, transformation > types, styles, output types, etc. and want to lower cost of development > over time, I'll bet you'll probably win with Cocoon once you've mastered > XSLT and friends. Do me a favor, don't develop a major application > around it without first understanding the concepts (and making sure the > team does). There is nothing MORE cryptic than bad XSLT (and there are > even examples of it within Cocoon). > > Granted, if I were to work with a bunch of people today, this very > moment, who all knew JSP, and I had ambitious performance and load > requirements, I'd probably not choose Cocoon yet. I've not used it in a > number of production situations like I have JSP. I don't know what will > happen if I add 1.5 million requests. (where I do know what will happen > with JSP). But if I had a small->medium internal app that I would have > to continue to maintain over time.. I'd probably use Cocoon. Or if I > had a small website with a reasonable and/or predictable number of hits, > where maintainability was a principal concern I'd use Cocoon. > > Cocoon versus JSP is much like the PERL (or VB) versus Java argument if > today was 1998 or so. > > Anyhow, like I said, I feel its time to start moving toward Cocoon and > XML/XSLT. Approach it like any other new technology. > Here are the sites using it, perhaps one would offer up the statistics > http://xml.apache.org/cocoon/link/livesites.html. I've given you more > reasons not to use Cocoon in this than TO, don't get me wrong, I think > JSP totally and completely sucks, but I wouldn't use Cocoon unless I had > the right team in place to make proper use of it and had passed the > proper learning curve. (at least not for a major, high load, mission > critical application). > > Cocoon is showing a lot of momentum, and I think is the future if not > the present. I think anyone who isn't looking into it and its > underlying technologies is really doing themselves a disservice. > > I'm slowly migrating what little web-development I do these days towards > Cocoon and investing in learning its underlying technologies. I even go > so far to advocate its use in certain situations. (and maintain as I've > always maintained, that JSP sucks nearly as much as its parent...ASP). > Some folks may think I'm jumping the gun. Had the same problem when I > moved from VB to Java in 1998. (still did some VB until around mid-1999). > > (So now I shall be flamed by the Cocoon-crowd and the JSP crowd alike. . > . Thats how I shall know I'm right ;-) ) > > -Andy > > PS - Cocoon is not the hammer, no matter the tool one can always create > crappy applications. The question is whether you have to fight your > tool to create good ones. I would argue you do for JSP. (maybe others > feel differently) > > >_______________________________________________ > >Juglist mailing list > >[EMAIL PROTECTED] > >http://lists.denveronline.net/mailman/listinfo/juglist > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Juglist mailing list > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > http://lists.denveronline.net/mailman/listinfo/juglist -- http://www.superlinksoftware.com - software solutions for business http://jakarta.apache.org/poi - Excel/Word/OLE 2 Compound Document in Java http://krysalis.sourceforge.net/centipede - the best build/project structure a guy/gal could have! - Make Ant simple on complex Projects! The avalanche has already started. It is too late for the pebbles to vote. -Ambassador Kosh
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