Hi, I am new in this forum and in cocoon, but it seems very promising. I found your reply very interesting and complete too.
I also think that JSP are far from being the best solution, even with struts. but I was using struts with velocity and it worked very well. The doubts that I have about cocoon are performance and tools. I work with XMLSpy from altova and it supports very well XML in general and XSLT in particular. It is not integrated with cocoon but it is a very good tool for the task (XSLT), so the only thing that I am dubitious is performance: is there a benchmark or a comparison against something else somewhere? thanks for any commentary Jorge DeFlon ----- Original Message ----- From: "Andrew C. Oliver" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "cocoon users" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Thursday, June 13, 2002 8:05 PM Subject: Re: [Juglist] Struts 2x vs larval Cocoon? > > > > Thomas L Roche wrote: > > > > >Struts can do pure-XML: see > > > > > >http://www.javaworld.com/javaworld/jw-02-2002/jw-0201-strutsxslt_p.html > > > > > >But can Cocoon be made to handle JSPs? Why I ask: > > > > > >Yes, Cocoon is cool, and JSPs are icky-poo. If one is developing a new > > >site, from scratch, Cocoon would seem to be the way to go. However, > > >there are a lotta JSPs out there, and one can reasonably surmise that > > >the vast majority of Java-ish websites have at least some legacy JSPs. > > >So consider the possible thought processes of members of two groups of > > >Javans as they plan future activity: > > > > > > > > Like this (haven't tried it myself)? > > > > http://xml.apache.org/cocoon/userdocs/generators/jsp-generator.html > > > > >* site developers/maintainers > > > > > > Unfortunately only a tiny minority are at present fully XML/XSL > > > compliant. (I suspect: feel free to confirm/confront with real > > > data.) One suspects the vast majority are "vanilla" Model 1, with a > > > minority having gone to something like Struts, Velocity, etc. These > > > folks aren't especially stupid or lazy, but they've got other things > > > to do, and they've got legacy that is "good enough." > > > > > > If a "typical enduser" is motivated enough to go XML-centric, > > > wouldn't it be a lot easier and less risky to migrate toward > > > something like Struts (2 or 2x), than to Big Bang straight to > > > Cocoon? (I know about Struts--I neglect Velocity etc because I know > > > so little about them.) Or is it Real Easy to migrate JSPs to XSPs? > > > > > > > > Cocoon is what I like to think of as 2.0-centric. Meaning it has a > > higher "initial cost" but if used well, should > > reduce your cost of maintaining it over time. Its not the first release > > that usually hurts, its the second...third...etc. > > Costs go up as your software continues to develop. Cocoon can help with > > this by more completely seperating > > your style, data, logic, etc. (as you cross the learning curve of > > Cocoon and use it in a couple apps, that learning curve goes down) > > > > Is Cocoon appropriate for you farm of dreamweaver users? Probably not. > > But Really if you think about it neither is JSP. > > (I hear Velocity is nice for that) I suspect as the tools improve > > Cocoon will be better for this as you can seperate your applications > > more as far as logic and style and content, etc. XSLT has a bit of a > > learning curve, but I often wonder if I'd find it so hard if I were less > > of a programmer type. I think there is a lot more opportunity for > > non-programmers to work with the style XSLT in the end. But case in > > point. . . those tools aren't there yet. > > > > I don't feel that its any less risky to adopt Struts and migrate to > > Cocoon than just goto Cocoon with maybe JSPs running through the JSP > > generator (based on the assumption that the JSP generator is a workable > > solution) and migrate those to XSPs/etc over time. The areas I'm most > > concerned with Cocoon have to do with performance under load. Then > > again, if its good enough for NASA...... (no mars lander jokes or you > > get thwapped!) > > > > >* tools builders > > > > > > I'd like to work on Cocoon tooling, and I suspect many managers > > > would too. But they've gotta think about how much resource they can > > > devote to any particular project, and what the market for their > > > product would be. And, again, incrementality (of effort) and > > > marketing (of product) would both seem (IMHO) to favor going toward > > > Struts 2x. > > > > > >These concerns would be mitigated if there was an easier migration > > >path to Cocoon. (I.e. a larval stage before going to pupa :-) > > >Is there? Or am I missing something? > > > > > > > > Above, you see the JSP-generator. Next I give you XML-Form which even > > states that its heavily influenced by struts. > > http://xml.apache.org/cocoon/howto/xmlform-wizard/howto-xmlform-wizard.html > > -- Danger, its work in progress. This is the last major hole in > > Cocoon, its nearly plugged (hence the .81 version number), but it may > > change a bit. > > > > * Principal flaws in Cocoon * > > > > The documentation is getting better but still sucks. > > > > The community that supports it is composed of XML and Avalon folks who > > only occasionally delve into english explanations of what the heck > > things are, preferring to speak XML-ian and Avalonian most of the time. > > (Watch a mail list and you'll see what I mean, in fact I don't think > > any of them go a whole sentence without using SoC or IoC...and if you > > don't know what those stand for well you'll feel pretty lost), where the > > Struts folks are generally more geared towards the rest of us. > > > > Marketing problem. What is Cocoon? An XML Framework? (well your > > sources nor your output, nor your transformations necessarily have to be > > in XML...really only the sitemap has to be XML...but then again IIRC > > struts has XML config files too...), A publishing framework? (that > > begs the question on what is publishing), you can have forms and reports > > coming out of Cocoon. > > Where, Struts is an MVC framework for JSPs simple to say. > > > > Heavy. Cocoon is heavier than JSP (assuming precompilation). On the > > other hand, I'll bet the caching and pooling pays off under load, but it > > has a heavy init time. The load testing I've done is very promising though. > > > > In summary, If you are satisfied with *ick* JSPs (Java-ASPs, Inverted > > Servlets) and think its the greatest thing since sliced bread and never > > could need or want for more stick with Struts. > > > > If you've got multiple content input types and sources, transformation > > types, styles, output types, etc. and want to lower cost of development > > over time, I'll bet you'll probably win with Cocoon once you've mastered > > XSLT and friends. Do me a favor, don't develop a major application > > around it without first understanding the concepts (and making sure the > > team does). There is nothing MORE cryptic than bad XSLT (and there are > > even examples of it within Cocoon). > > > > Granted, if I were to work with a bunch of people today, this very > > moment, who all knew JSP, and I had ambitious performance and load > > requirements, I'd probably not choose Cocoon yet. I've not used it in a > > number of production situations like I have JSP. I don't know what will > > happen if I add 1.5 million requests. (where I do know what will happen > > with JSP). But if I had a small->medium internal app that I would have > > to continue to maintain over time.. I'd probably use Cocoon. Or if I > > had a small website with a reasonable and/or predictable number of hits, > > where maintainability was a principal concern I'd use Cocoon. > > > > Cocoon versus JSP is much like the PERL (or VB) versus Java argument if > > today was 1998 or so. > > > > Anyhow, like I said, I feel its time to start moving toward Cocoon and > > XML/XSLT. Approach it like any other new technology. > > Here are the sites using it, perhaps one would offer up the statistics > > http://xml.apache.org/cocoon/link/livesites.html. I've given you more > > reasons not to use Cocoon in this than TO, don't get me wrong, I think > > JSP totally and completely sucks, but I wouldn't use Cocoon unless I had > > the right team in place to make proper use of it and had passed the > > proper learning curve. (at least not for a major, high load, mission > > critical application). > > > > Cocoon is showing a lot of momentum, and I think is the future if not > > the present. I think anyone who isn't looking into it and its > > underlying technologies is really doing themselves a disservice. > > > > I'm slowly migrating what little web-development I do these days towards > > Cocoon and investing in learning its underlying technologies. I even go > > so far to advocate its use in certain situations. (and maintain as I've > > always maintained, that JSP sucks nearly as much as its parent...ASP). > > Some folks may think I'm jumping the gun. Had the same problem when I > > moved from VB to Java in 1998. (still did some VB until around mid-1999). > > > > (So now I shall be flamed by the Cocoon-crowd and the JSP crowd alike. . > > . Thats how I shall know I'm right ;-) ) > > > > -Andy > > > > PS - Cocoon is not the hammer, no matter the tool one can always create > > crappy applications. The question is whether you have to fight your > > tool to create good ones. I would argue you do for JSP. (maybe others > > feel differently) > > > > >_______________________________________________ > > >Juglist mailing list > > >[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > >http://lists.denveronline.net/mailman/listinfo/juglist > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Juglist mailing list > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > http://lists.denveronline.net/mailman/listinfo/juglist > -- > http://www.superlinksoftware.com - software solutions for business > http://jakarta.apache.org/poi - Excel/Word/OLE 2 Compound Document in > Java > http://krysalis.sourceforge.net/centipede - the best build/project > structure > a guy/gal could have! - Make Ant simple on complex Projects! > The avalanche has already started. It is too late for the pebbles to > vote. > -Ambassador Kosh > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > Please check that your question has not already been answered in the > FAQ before posting. <http://xml.apache.org/cocoon/faq/index.html> > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > For additional commands, e-mail: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- Please check that your question has not already been answered in the FAQ before posting. <http://xml.apache.org/cocoon/faq/index.html> To unsubscribe, e-mail: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> For additional commands, e-mail: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
