I haven't found the ODMG way to be very slow. Are we comparing specs to tools? Most things can auto-deploy schemas, but very few of my clients will use such a feature.
We've used several ODMG based solutions to take advantage of a particular vendors enhancements, or J2C connectors. I can say that in the past my team of 3 have used these techniques to deliver maintainable, workable solutions very quickly.
If you're persisting classes that you don't have control over, nor access to the class files (don't you need access to manipulate them?) then I'd be worried about version management and coupling.
But, I'll have another look. Last thing, it's too bad that with JDO they have introduced 3 query languages, rather than have one that works for JDO, CMP-EJB, etc.
Cheers,
Thor HW
On Sunday, February 9, 2003, at 04:56 PM, Robert Simmons wrote:
Yes. That is part of the specification. The enhancement is to byte code, not
to native versions of the code. Therefore any JVM can read the enhanced
files. You might look at Jakarta's BCEL project to get an idea about how byte
code enhancement works.
As for the ODMG vs. byte code enhancement, Id have to disagree. The thing I
want out of a persistence project is a fire and forget solution. As a
consultant, I don't get paid for providing persistence solutions. I get paid
for working on what makes my clients money. Be that web purchasing or genetic
engineering. I am far better off having solutions where I need to invest only
small amounts of thought in how to persist data and do object to relational
mapping.
In addition, there are instances, many of them, where you have neither
control of the data that needs to be stored, nor access to the class files
defining these data objects. At which point the JDO approach is far superior.
Lastly the JDO approach provides the ability to reverse engineer schemas into
the cross JDO vendor portable JDO metadeta files. This gives enormous power
when working with legacy databases.
-- Robert
----- Original Message -----
From: "Thor Heinrichs-Wolpert" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, February 10, 2003 1:37 AM
Subject: Re: A note about the "best(?) (cocoon-) development environment" ...
Have you found that it works well for you across JVM versions and
implementations? The ODMG JDO works everywhere.
On Sunday, February 9, 2003, at 05:22 AM, Robert Simmons wrote:
Point of correction. Class enhancement is not generation per se. The actual class files are enhanced in place. In other words the byte code enhancers go into the class files and alter them. The solution elegantly solves some nasty problems.-- Robert ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert Simmons" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Saturday, February 08, 2003 10:59 PM Subject: Re: A note about the "best(?) (cocoon-) development environment" ...Sun JDO JSR-12. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Thor Heinrichs-Wolpert" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Saturday, February 08, 2003 10:22 PM Subject: Re: A note about the "best(?) (cocoon-) development environment"...
Which JDO? The ODMG JDO (like what Castor uses) or the after class
generation muck about that is in the Sun JDO?
Jetty has been using JMX long before Tomcat, it fully supports the
spec
... and I'm thinking it supports it before the reference
implementation
does (like the classpath stuff). Is it superior, I can't say for sure
(but it is the default / preferred servlet engine in JBoss. I like it
because it takes me less screwing around with jar clashes between
applications and what the server itself uses (making me less dependent
on their support cycle and changes in where the JDK wants things).
Cheers,
Thor HW
On Saturday, February 8, 2003, at 01:05 PM, Robert Simmons wrote:
I use JBoss but not jetty. Are you saying the Jetty-JBoss combo is
superior
to the Tomcat-JBoss combo? If so, I will definitely go try it.
Perhaps
it
will fix my classpath in XSP issue. Bugzilla Reference:
http://nagoya.apache.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=16580.
Kodo JDO is an implementation of the JDO specification and MORE. It
basically
rules. Go through the tutorials and you will love it. Create an
object
model
using your favorite problem domain. Then create the JDO mapping file
(raw XML
or with IDE plug-in) and then just say "uhh, make a schema for me"
and
it
just does it. Its amazing! No more screwing around with persistence
and
schema manipulation.
I have the commercial version of that product and will be talking
about using
it in the book that I am writing.
-- Robert
----- Original Message -----
From: "Thor Heinrichs-Wolpert" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Saturday, February 08, 2003 9:47 PM
Subject: Re: A note about the "best(?) (cocoon-) development
environment" ...
Robert:
Have a look at Jetty, or JBoss/Jetty (aka JBossWeb). No nasty "must
copy things to endorsed directories, etc.)". You take Cocoon
(2.0/2.1)
and drop it in your deploy directory and POOF it's there. It's nice
when the servlet engine actually uses the libs you define and not its
own first as the default ... isn't that in the spec ... and will be
available in Tomcat at some point.
If you want any extra libs in cocoon-2.1 you add them in the lib
tree,
add them to jars.xml and the cocoon build adds them to the Manifest
...
Jetty/Jboss just eats 'em up in the right place.
I'm off to look for Kudo JDO (which hopefully follows the ODMG JDO
and
not Sun's) ... how does this rank against Castor or Jakarta-OJB ?
Cheers,
Thor HW
On Saturday, February 8, 2003, at 11:42 AM, Robert Simmons wrote:
Hy, all; During the last months of activities i learned a lot from this mailing list. while i followed the discussions i started getting my development environment a bit up to date. I plan to setup a Wiki page on this theme. Although this may be a bit off topic, it still would be great, if someone could comment on this issue. the tools collection -------------------- Here is what i have put together so far. Of course this is driven at least partially by what i do for my customers... free tools: 1.) OS: linux and solaris (maybe a mater of taste)Go linux. Instead of spending money on licenses, you spend money on support contracts. Cheaper. In addition, Solaris is primitive compared to Linux.2.) apache 1.3.26 (mod_jk2, mod_SSL)Duh ;)Yes, but you can go one step further. Get JBoss with integrated3.) tomcat 4.1.18
tomcat. JBoss
will handle all sorty of nasty things like deploying to clusters for
you. As
a bonus, you get the ability to integrate with EJB based programs.
4.) cocoon-2.0.42.1 Hopefully soon!5.) eclipseSee my previous message about eclopse vs netbeans.6.) sunbow eclipse tools (xml/sitemap)URL ?I have 15 million of them in my damn appartment, want a few? Oh ...7.) ant
you mean
Jakarta ant? Ok, nevermind then. =) Im currently looking at
Krysalis'
extensions to ant. http://www.krysalis.org/centipede/quickstart.html
8.) java-1.3.1 (sun JDK on all platforms)No no .. 1.4.1!!!!!! In 1.4 there are so many COOOL things that I couldnt live without anymore.9.) Secureway LDAP Server (i'll switch to Open LDAP soon)Im an LDAP idiot so Ill trust you there. Tools you didnt talk about: CVS - Use it over clearcase. its powerful, free, and a pleasure to use. BugZilla - Great program!!!!! Lousy looking interface. We should start a project to port it to cocoon. =) However bugzilla is a great and free bugtracking system.commercial tools: 10.) clearcase cms (see below)Garbage.11.) xml-spyGood but confusing.all you need is Mysql baby.12.) several DB-Systems
Ones you didnt talk about:
13) Together control center. If you can afford it, it absolutely
kills
any
other IDE on the planet.
14) eXcelon Stylus Studio. A great XML editor. It has a bonus of
being
easy
to use and allot less confusing than XML Spy.
15) User editors for creating static content. (FrameMaker?
OpenOffice?
Im
still working on this one)
16) Kodo JDO. Dont leave home without it. All that nasty persistence
stuff
just goes POOOF.
Shouldnt be tough, just run tomcat (or JBoss) in debug mode with anotes about the collection -------------------------- * All tools mentioned above fit tightly together. I use apache/tomcat since about three years now. The above combination also works fine with SSL. * After i got eclipse setup in tomcat debugging mode, i could at least double my productivity. Thanks to the tomcat site it was a matter of seconds to get it up see: http://jakarta.apache.org/site/idedev-rdtomcat.html * I also managed to setup eclipse with Cocoon in less than 10 minutes. OK, i did a lousy trick, but for debugging and learning how cocoon internals work it's absolutley satisfying...
socket
attach. Then you can remote attach to the socket and you are on your
way!
* about SCM in general and Clearcase in particular:
Clearcase is a quite expensive and known to be very slow
SCM tool. On the other hand it is super easy to integrate.
Due to exposing the data within a "virtual filesystem" you
just don't see it from the users viewpoint (except checkin
checkout your files).
Having the clearcase integration kit for eclipse up and
running comes near to a developers dream. I hope, after
Rational has been incorporated into IBM, clearcase or a
derivate of it will eventually find it's way into the
ongoing eclipse efforts to build just another SCM. See
http://www.eclipse.org/technology/index.html
follow the link to "stellation" at the bottom of the page.
Another interesting new SCM could be subversion from
http://subversion.tigris.org/ ...
All of these SCM's provide directory versioning
(something once you got it, you'll never want to miss again...)
* I happen to use XML-Spy since a couple of years now.
Maybe i just got used to it. I like it, although i have
to pay for the license. At least it helps me getting
my XSCHEMA's generated in no time.
My personal SAXESS story ...
----------------------------
SAXESS stands for "System AXESS", just to get this clear;-)
I write this down, mainly because i got very very satisfied
with this especially when i compare this to what i was used
to in former times when open source was something, nobody
ever heard of...
I'm running my webserver on some linux box and my webapps
on solaris driven by tomcat. All of my code is dropped
into a company wide multiplatform SCM system. I'm developing
with the eclipse IDE right on my Desktop machine. I'm running
Cocoon for the visualisation part of my projects. This is just
a great XML publishing tool, and i'm still only using the
basics of it for now. By saving my work to the SCM,
my testwebapp gets autodeployed on a solaris box, which
happens to be our testenvironment. I can setup remote debuggig
sessions from my desktop directly into the heart of my
webapplications...
Once i checked in my work into the SCM, my webapp gets
autodeployed on linux, which happens to be our website
server. And i bet, after fiddeling around a bit, i could
setup a debugging session on my customers site, while sitting
somewhere at a beach, quickfix a bug, and then turn back to
the real life just beeing happy for the rest of the day...
A personal thank to the Open Source comunity
--------------------------------------------
Folks, Thank you very much all you, who have contributed to get
such a powerfull toolset up and running. I just get very excited
seeing this developer's dream becoming reality...
And sad enough i'm not sitting at a beach, but in
"good ol'e germany" getting to much rain and too
few sun (solaris is not good for everything...).
thanks for your attention, if your patience lasted until here ;-)
regards, Hussayn
--
Dr. Hussayn Dabbous
SAXESS Software Design GmbH
Neuenhöfer Allee 125
D-50935 Köln
tel.:+49 221 56011 0
fax.:+49 221-56011 20
email:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
------------------------------------------------------------------ -
--
Please check that your question has not already been answered in
the
FAQ before posting.
<http://xml.apache.org/cocoon/faq/index.html>
To unsubscribe, e-mail:
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
For additional commands, e-mail:
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
------------------------------------------------------------------- -
-
Please check that your question has not already been answered in
the
FAQ before posting.
<http://xml.apache.org/cocoon/faq/index.html>
To unsubscribe, e-mail:
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
For additional commands, e-mail:
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
-------------------------------------------------------------------- -
Please check that your question has not already been answered in the
FAQ before posting. <http://xml.apache.org/cocoon/faq/index.html>
To unsubscribe, e-mail: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
For additional commands, e-mail: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
-------------------------------------------------------------------- -
Please check that your question has not already been answered in the
FAQ before posting. <http://xml.apache.org/cocoon/faq/index.html>
To unsubscribe, e-mail: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
For additional commands, e-mail: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--------------------------------------------------------------------- Please check that your question has not already been answered in the FAQ before posting. <http://xml.apache.org/cocoon/faq/index.html> To unsubscribe, e-mail: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> For additional commands, e-mail: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> --------------------------------------------------------------------- Please check that your question has not already been answered in the FAQ before posting. <http://xml.apache.org/cocoon/faq/index.html> To unsubscribe, e-mail: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> For additional commands, e-mail: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>--------------------------------------------------------------------- Please check that your question has not already been answered in the FAQ before posting. <http://xml.apache.org/cocoon/faq/index.html> To unsubscribe, e-mail: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> For additional commands, e-mail: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>--------------------------------------------------------------------- Please check that your question has not already been answered in the FAQ before posting. <http://xml.apache.org/cocoon/faq/index.html> To unsubscribe, e-mail: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> For additional commands, e-mail: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> --------------------------------------------------------------------- Please check that your question has not already been answered in the FAQ before posting. <http://xml.apache.org/cocoon/faq/index.html> To unsubscribe, e-mail: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> For additional commands, e-mail: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--------------------------------------------------------------------- Please check that your question has not already been answered in the FAQ before posting. <http://xml.apache.org/cocoon/faq/index.html> To unsubscribe, e-mail: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> For additional commands, e-mail: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
