Hi Paulo,

Just keep trying is all I can say.  I am starting a codec sandbox
package.  Could you help me scour other projects for this?  I am
starting with the Base64 class from httpclient, but I know that there is
a lot of code out there.

Scott

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Paulo Gaspar [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] 
> Sent: Wednesday, January 23, 2002 3:02 PM
> To: Jakarta Commons Developers List
> Subject: RE: To fork or not to fork (was: AltRMI Tasks if 
> anyone want to take them)
> 
> 
> > Just go full steam ahead with 4).  You contributed your 
> packaged code 
> > to the logging discussion, which helped me very much.  The 
> only thing 
> > that stopped me from actually using it was a [PATCH] against the 
> > current impl.  I apologize if you think you were ignored.  
> I heard you 
> > loud and clear.
> 
> Hi Scott,
> 
> 
> My problem is not exactly that I am not heard - hey, I got a lot of 
> replies all the time! The real issue is another one.
> =;o)
> 
> I will also explain why I did not submit a patch.
> 
> 
> Perspective:
>   - Since I forked a lot of Avalon stuff I ended up trying to 
>     "improve" their Common Logging Interface... just to find out 
>     that the original was always better than my "improvements". 
> 
>  - I also took a look at the Commons stuff and I just found out 
>    that it had NOTHING that could help;
> 
>  - The only other interesting logging bits I found were in 
>    Velocity (BTW: some of it from Jon).
> 
> 
> When I noticed how the Commons were ignoring the GREAT Avalon 
> work I talked about it and I posted the repackaging I was using.
> 
> Now, I always made clear that this was from Avalon. So, I know I 
> am not the one being ignored.
> 
> 
> After posting that code twice, insisting a lot and getting several 
> evasives, I finally got this reply when remarking yet AGAIN 
> on how the Commons were reinventing all of Avalon wheels from scratch:
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: robert burrell donkin [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> > Sent: Friday, January 11, 2002 7:44 PM
> > Subject: Re: how should log levels work? [Was Re: [Logging] default 
> > log level]
> > 
> > ...
> > 
> > <sigh> i'd hoped that i wouldn't have to get into this </sigh>
> > 
> > i know peter's views on logging pretty well. i think that 
> the only way
> > that we'll ever achieve what we need - a minimal component-oriented 
> > logging system - is by ignoring them and going back to 
> first principles.
> > 
> > i've said before that i'd be very happy to consider your 
> suggestion as 
> > a
> > 'second generation commons logging package' but anything with 
> > peter's name 
> > anywhere near it is too divisive for me to even consider as a first 
> > generation solution.
> 
> So, THIS IS MY PROBLEM.
> 
> 
> And my problem is not just with Robert since EVEN after this was 
> posted everybody went around just getting the Avalon code.
> 
> Some people picked some pieces from it or learned something from 
> it that applied to the Commons stuff. But that was it.
> 
> Everybody accommodated Robert's personal problems with Peter 
> with a huge waste of energy and time.
> 
> 
> Look, I had (and keep having) huge flame wars with Jon and that 
> does not stop me from:
>  - Learning from him (when he is readable);
>  - Agreeing with him;
>  - Using his code.
> 
> Jon also NEVER flamed me on a technical issue except when he 
> clearly has a different opinion. It was NEVER "I do not agree 
> because it is Paulo saying" and I NEVER felt it that way. 
> (Ok, this does not apply to less objective matters.)
> 
> 
> My problem is this "I do not agree because it is from X".
> Even I and Jon can avoid this!
> 
> Get personal and have a good fight, but only outside the 
> "school", ok kids?
> 
> 
> Now, I considered submitting a patch... but how could I? If I 
> would patch the commons my patch would HAVE TO include Peter 
> Donald's name! Most of this code is not mine. All of the core 
> code is from him.
> 
> But then it seems obvious that Robert would have a problem with 
> this.
> 
> 
> But now lets consider this facts:
>  - The current Commons interface is almost a copy of Avalon's 
>    interface; 
>  - It was quite a bit guided by my suggestions (hey, they were 
>    accepted!);
>  - And (at least) Craig took a look at it for one of the 
>    wrappers.
> 
> Look: Craig placed my name on the DynaBean code because of 
> this kind of opinion-contribution.
> 
> 
> === FINALLY THE "WHAT I REALLY WANT" PART ===
> 
> I do not want my name on the Commons Logging stuff BUT I WANT 
> Peter Donald's NAME THERE AS A CONTRIBUTOR! It was his 
> knowledge that was used trough me.
> 
> And I would appreciate very much if this kind of spoiled brat 
> behavior would not be silently accommodated in the future!
> 
> 
> Thanks for your attention and have fun,
> Paulo Gaspar
> 
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Scott Sanders [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> > Sent: Wednesday, January 23, 2002 8:52 PM
> > To: Jakarta Commons Developers List
> > Subject: RE: To fork or not to fork (was: AltRMI Tasks if 
> anyone want 
> > to take them)
> > 
> > 
> > Just go full steam ahead with 4).  You contributed your 
> packaged code 
> > to the logging discussion, which helped me very much.  The 
> only thing 
> > that stopped me from actually using it was a [PATCH] against the 
> > current impl.  I apologize if you think you were ignored.  
> I heard you 
> > loud and clear.
> > 
> > Cheers,
> > Scott (Trying to erase the bad blood between Avalon and commons)
> > 
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Paulo Gaspar [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> > > Sent: Wednesday, January 23, 2002 5:24 AM
> > > To: Jakarta Commons Developers List
> > > Subject: RE: To fork or not to fork (was: AltRMI Tasks if 
> > > anyone want to take them)
> > > 
> > > 
> > > Sam, I first tried 4) and 1) with the Common Logging Interface.
> > > 
> > > Since that was frustrating I am now going trough 2).
> > > =;o)
> > > 
> > > The waste of 3) is in this case harder to accept. Even Jon
> > > agrees with that (when it is not me saying it, at least).
> > > 
> > > 
> > > What I would like from 2) is that there is more people
> > > agreeing that it is better to fork code in the conditions I 
> > > described instead of just re-implementing it from scratch. It 
> > > seems that the later is becoming current practice.
> > > 
> > > I would not spend so much energy on this if I did not care
> > > about Apache.
> > > 
> > > 
> > > Thanks anyway: adult advice is much nicer to hear (read) than
> > > the alternative.
> > > 
> > > 
> > > Have fun,
> > > Paulo Gaspar
> > > 
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: Sam Ruby [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> > > > Sent: Wednesday, January 23, 2002 1:41 PM
> > > >
> > > > Paulo Gaspar wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Thanks Sam, but my mood about this is too bad to relax.
> > > >
> > > > You read my intentions correctly.  But there is a deeper
> > > message. if
> > > > you care to look.  The problems that you are pointing 
> out are not
> > > > unique to Jon, Peter, yourself, commons, Jakarta, or 
> even Apache.
> > > >
> > > > Generally, if you see something you believe is wrong, plain
> > > wrong, as
> > > > obvious as the nose on your face, to the point where it 
> amazes you
> > > > that others don't see the problem, there are several 
> things you can 
> > > > do:
> > > >
> > > >    1) you can patiently try to work with others to get them
> > > to address the
> > > >    problem  Quite frankly, this doesn't always work.
> > > >
> > > >    2) you can yell or pout.  Believe it or not, this 
> actually works
> > > >    sometimes too.  But not always.
> > > >
> > > >    3) you can accept the current state as it is.  Sometime
> > > this isn't
> > > >    possible.
> > > >
> > > >    4) or, you can engage.
> > > >
> > > > As always, the choice is yours.
> > > >
> > > > - Sam Ruby
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail:
> > > > <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > > For additional commands, e-mail: 
> > > > <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > >
> > > 
> > > 
> > > --
> > > To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
> > > <mailto:commons-dev-> [EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > For
> > > additional commands, 
> > > e-mail: <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > 
> > > 
> > 
> > --
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
> > <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > For additional commands, e-mail:
> > <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > 
> 
> --
> To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
> <mailto:commons-dev-> [EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> For 
> additional commands, 
> e-mail: <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> 
> 

--
To unsubscribe, e-mail:   <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
For additional commands, e-mail: <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

Reply via email to