On Tue, Jul 08, 2003 at 12:58:17AM -0700, Greg Stein wrote:
I'd do it when they'll donate Python itself ;-) Does wishful thinking work?
Believe me, I suggested that years ago. The Python Software Foundation was started instead (Dick Hardt and I crafted the PSF bylaws based on the ASF's bylaws). The main backers of a PSF effort thought that the ASF was still too confusingly tied to the Apache HTTP Server (despite my protests). I think if we asked again, today, that the answer would be that Apache stands for much more. But the PSF has got its own momentum now, so there wouldn't be much benefit for them to fold up and merge the Python assets into the ASF.
I can understand that they think the general perception is that Apache == HTTPD. Perhaps measures are already in place to help educate people on the distinction, e.g. you think if Apache asked Python to merge with it again today, they would accept, but perhaps active marketting measures need to be taken to enhance/protect the Apache brand?
Perhaps I'm getting too commercial or what not, but I've seen just 'Apache' in many places where they meant 'Apache HTTPD' so I can certainly understand the Python community's hestitation.
E.g. the FreeBSD ports collection, the 'Powered by Apache 2.0' logo on my FreeBSD port-installed HTTPD server (is there a 2.0 version of the foundation?). Other things that come to mind are distro installers like RedHat, or even cygwin, let me install 'apache-xxx'.
Even the Apache HTTPD FAQ, which I just checked to see how it handles the definitions, the first question, is:
Q: "What is Apache?" A: "The Apache httpd server"
The entire thing refers to "Apache" as synonymous for the HTTPD server project.
And I'm sure this happens elsewhere on the net, as well. E.g. anytime a news site mentions it. Even slashdot had the other day 'Software Code Quality of Apache Analyzed', which was where some commercial code quality compared compared the HTTPD 2.0 code to some commercial web server.
(The front page of the httpd.apache.org site also refers to itself as 'Apache HTTP Server', which is a little misleading, as there is another HTTP server, Tomcat, and you don't see it masquerading as the 'Apache HTTP Server' which it can claim, history of the HTTPD project asside, just as legitimately. Perhaps this opens up a can of political worms, but I think strictly branding HTTPD as HTTPD and not 'Apache' or even 'Apache HTTP Server' is a good idea.)
The reverse of this is that I don't often see Jakarta, Tomcat, Ant, Velocity, Xerces or Xalan referenced as Apache XXX. So, it looks like the people cannot stick two words together and still be a brand.
Side Note: It reminds me of the GNU/Linux stuff (or even GNU Emacs). It simply doesn't stick.
I usually say: I work in Jetspeed, an Apache Jakarta project. But even so, people loose track easily.
What if some one/a group of people were to form a watchdog group that would bring to the attention of people who get this wrong, e.g. news articles, older articles around the Apache/HTTPD site, the FreeBSD ports collection, the distro makers, etc., that they should infact use 'Apache HTTPD' instead of just 'Apache'.
It might be good preparation for the next X project that comes along but still things the general public/developer things Apache == HTTPD (because they do, IMHO, even if it's better than before) and so we lose the opportunity.
In the spirit of 'submit a patch,' I'd volunteer to at least be a part of this watchdog group; I'm a little leery of the political side of what it would take to get it formed and the respect for people to listen to it. But if people think its a good idea and higher ups in ASF like it, I'm willing to tag along and help out.
I copy community (on political principles). If you want to raise awareness of such an "Apache wide" fact, don't do it in a "java only" place like Jakarta.
- Stephen
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-- Santiago Gala High Sierra Technology, S.L. (http://hisitech.com) http://memojo.com?page=SantiagoGalaBlog
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