If one makes e.g. something like Hydra, one has already almost all at hand.
There is the work of Ken Thompson, of the Deep Blue team, the work of Frans
Morsch, Ed Schroeder... There is an industrial quality infrastructure,
databases, interfaces, there are people who have already learned their
lesson.... One is a dwarf standing on the shoulders of giants.
The Polaris team had not such an infrastructure, but they build it over many
years and with a lot of effort for themself. The effort is comparable to the
big chess projects. Not in money terms, but from the man-power investments.
In Go their is neither. There is no infrastructure, one is a dwarf standing
on the shoulders of dwarfs and their is not such a team like the Polaris one
so far. Maybe the INRA group succeeds to make something similar. I have no
idea, but I can't see at the moment nobody who works like the Polaris or
Deep Blue team.
One can discuss, if Go or Poker is harder. Its definetly harder than chess.
But I am also convinced, that Go is not that hard, its this poor state of
the affairs which makes the problem that hard.
Chrilly
----- Original Message -----
From: "Harri Salakoski" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "computer-go" <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2007 11:44 AM
Subject: Re: [computer-go] U. of Alberta bots vs. the Poker pros
think poker is more difficult than Go and of course chess.
I have only studied poker AI basics and coded game rules, learned play
slightly winning net poker.
But however dare to say my opinion that I totally disagree. Sounds like
somekind of poker hype that
it is as tough problem than Go game AI 19*19 table. It is offcourse very
complex interaction problem but
my opinion is that it is still lot of easier problem.
It is maybe even possible that it can't be proven and that theory you are
right, because poker can be iterated forever and
that in theory propably there is _no_ best strategy. I see it very
same/similar thing than in super simple iterated prisoners dilemma
problem. There just is no best strategy, any strategy has some other
dominating strategy, so I have understanded it.
But there is very good strategies, every bet when you but your money in
table you play even stronger(bluff), play normally or slow play present
weaker hand than you actually have. That thing iterated, remembering what
opponents have done earlier (like in prisoners dilemma) it is tough
problem, but saying it harder than go game is not true at least in
practise.
In practise I see it so that computers have advantage in poker other
things than this complex interaction, where advantage is in humans. As
computers can actually calculate odds and propabilities exactly, that
advantage is maybe slight, but something which similar don't exist in
go-game.
But yep just started poker AI in my project
http://sourceforge.net/projects/narugo, coded there SimpleActionGenerator,
in estimated couple years work it is gonna plays better poker than starter
player :|
So imho if somebody states that poker is harder AI problem than go-game,
it sounds poker hype.
t. Harri
----- Original Message -----
From: "chrilly" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "computer-go" <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2007 10:32 AM
Subject: Re: [computer-go] U. of Alberta bots vs. the Poker pros
This is a remarkable result. I think poker is more difficult than Go and
of course chess. My hypothesis (its just a hypothesis) for the success
is. There is someone - Dave Billings - who worked for many years very
consequently on the topic. And he is able to motivate a lot of other good
people to go along with him. And he gets probably also a lot of support
from his boss, J.Schaeffer. And of course, there is some prospect to win
fame and money.
The conditions for solving a problem are always at least as important
than the problem itself. Maybe are the conditions in Poker better than in
Go. As said above, I think the problem is in Poker harder. They have of
course not solved the whole problem. Heads-Up limit Hold'Em is the - for
computers - easiest game. But its nevertheless remarkable that they are
on-par with the Poker-GMs.
Chrilly
----- Original Message -----
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2007 6:02 AM
Subject: [computer-go] U. of Alberta bots vs. the Poker pros
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Humans beat poker bot ... barely:
<http://cosmiclog.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/07/25/289607.aspx>
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