Raymond,

Playing a strong game of go is a combination of many factors, not just
reading ladders.    You could probably isolate out any particular skill
and write some code that does it pretty well.   But the question will
always be:  "How well does it actually play the game?"

As has been stated here many times,  improving some specific skill could
actually hurt the overall strength.    What you want is the best program
overall - one that knows how to win games.   I don't care if you can
make a great ladder reader if the program sucks.


Raymond Wold wrote:
> On Tue, 2007-12-11 at 13:45 -0500, Don Dailey wrote:
>   
>> Do you know of an approach that evaluates go positions perfectly?    You
>> are attacking the fact that MC programs have errors in their probability
>> estimates but completely ignoring the fact that SO DOES EVERY OTHER
>> EVALUATION FUNCTION.  
>>     
>
> I can code an algorithm that evaluates simple ladders correctly.
>
> I'll repeat that. I can code a program that reads ladders better than a
> pure MC program without knowledge of ladders. I can beat it. Human
> knowledge programmed into a computer that does that one thing, that
> basic go skill, better than the MC program.
>
> Are you saying that there is absolutely no way to combine such with an
> MC program to make it better? Not just that no one has done it (I don't
> know if anyone has) but that it is impossible? Are you saying that
> attempts to do so are wasted? If you are, I'd appreciate it if you did
> so clearly.
>   
This is the course MC programs have been taking all along,  adding
domain specific (and otherwise) knowledge to the play-outs.    Of course
you can add ladder code.

But what does this have to do with anything?   What we are "arguing"
about is whether it's good to try to estimate probabilities.   That's
what you have been critical of.   Adding ladder code will improve any
evaluation function if done correctly but that's not relevant if you
believe estimating probability is foolish.

To the contrary, I believe it is brilliant - in my opinion it is a key
factor in the success of these programs and I would call it a key
breakthrough.     

- Don


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