Yes. And while worrying about what happens after a win rate of 97% sounds like splitting hairs, I think we're talking about an awkward way of measuring something that's of practical interest.
Suppose Hideki's experiment were repeated, giving GNU GO a four stone handicap. If Zen plateau'd out at the same time-per-move, that would suggest a real limit in strength improvement against dissimilar opponents. If Zen plateau'd out at the same ELO point, that might suggest that a few percent of the games involved tactical situations that GNU GO could understand but Zen couldn't, even with much more time. The second possibility could be tested more efficiently by Zen taking the handicap. - Dave Hillis -----Original Message----- From: Erik van der Werf <[email protected]> To: computer-go <[email protected]> Sent: Sun, Jan 17, 2010 8:06 am Subject: Re: [computer-go] scalability analysis with pachi Oh, ok. I was a bit surprised. Last time I checked my program scaled uite nicely against GnuGo, at least for low numbers of simulations up o about 97% winning rate. I suppose there could be some kind of lateau when nearing 100% due to some missing knowledge/skills that nly GnuGo has. Erik 010/1/16 <[email protected]>: Well, I thought "there seems to be a picture emerging" was sufficiently hedged that it would be construed as a conjecture, not a conclusion. :) I am thinking, in particular, of the scalability studies with Zen that Hideki reported to this list in Oct. 2009. > BTW, recently I've measured the strength (win rate) vs time for a move > curves with Zen vs GNU Go and Zen vs Zen (self-play) on 19 x 19 board. > Without opening book, it saturates between +400 and +500 Elo against > GNU but doesn't upto +800 Elo in self-play. That's somewhat > interesting (detail will be open soon at GPW-2009). > Hideki There was a bit more information provided in a sequence of posts to this list during that month. I wonder if the paper is out now. - Dave Hillis -----Original Message----- From: Erik van der Werf <[email protected]> To: computer-go <[email protected]> Sent: Sat, Jan 16, 2010 12:55 pm Subject: Re: [computer-go] scalability analysis with pachi 2010/1/15 <[email protected]> > > Thank you for posting these interesting results There seems to be > a picture emerging that MCTS engines scale very well in self play, and > apparently against other MCTS engines, but not so well against the non-MCTS > version of Gnugo. > - Dave Hillis Do you have any data to back that conclusion? Erik _______________________________________________ computer-go mailing list [email protected] http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ _______________________________________________ computer-go mailing list [email protected] http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ______________________________________________ omputer-go mailing list [email protected] ttp://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
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