Did everyone forget the fact that stronger playouts don't necessarily lead to an better evaluation function? (Yes, that what playouts essential are, a dynamic evaluation function.) This is even under the assumption that we can reach the same number of playouts per move.
> On 08 Dec 2015, at 10:21, Álvaro Begué <alvaro.be...@gmail.com> wrote: > > I don't think the CPU-GPU communication is what's going to kill this idea. > The latency in actually computing the feed-forward pass of the CNN is going > to be in the order of 0.1 seconds (I am guessing here), which means finishing > the first playout will take many seconds. > > So perhaps it would be interesting to do something like this for > correspondence games, but not for regular games. > > > Álvaro. > > > > On Tue, Dec 8, 2015 at 12:03 PM, Petr Baudis <pa...@ucw.cz > <mailto:pa...@ucw.cz>> wrote: > Hi! > > Well, for this to be practical the entire playout would have to be > executed on the GPU, with no round-trips to the CPU. That's what my > email was aimed at. > > On Tue, Dec 08, 2015 at 04:37:05PM +0000, Josef Moudrik wrote: > > Regarding full CNN playouts, I think that problem is that a playout is a > > long serial process, given 200-300 moves a game. You need to construct > > planes and transfer them to GPU for each move and read result back (at > > least with current CNN implementations afaik), so my guess would be that > > such playout would take time in order of seconds. So there seems to be a > > tradeoff, CNN playouts are (probably much) better (at "playing better > > games") than e.g. distribution playouts, but whether this is worth the > > implied (probably much) lower height of the MC tree is a question. > > > > Maybe if you had really a lot of GPUs and very high thinking time, this > > could be the way. > > > > Josef > > > > On Tue, Dec 8, 2015 at 5:17 PM Petr Baudis <pa...@ucw.cz > > <mailto:pa...@ucw.cz>> wrote: > > > > > Hi! > > > > > > In case someone is looking for a starting point to actually implement > > > Go rules etc. on GPU, you may find useful: > > > > > > > > > https://www.mail-archive.com/computer-go@computer-go.org/msg12485.html > > > <https://www.mail-archive.com/computer-go@computer-go.org/msg12485.html> > > > > > > I wonder if you can easily integrate caffe GPU kernels in another GPU > > > kernel like this? But without training, reimplementing the NN could be > > > pretty straightforward. > > > > > > On Tue, Dec 08, 2015 at 04:53:14PM +0100, Michael Markefka wrote: > > > > Hello Detlef, > > > > > > > > I've got a question regarding CNN-based Go engines I couldn't find > > > > anything about on this list. As I've been following your posts here, I > > > > thought you might be the right person to ask. > > > > > > > > Have you ever tried using the CNN for complete playouts? I know that > > > > CNNs have been tried for move prediction, immediate scoring and move > > > > generation to be used in an MC evaluator, but couldn't find anything > > > > about CNN-based playouts. > > > > > > > > It might only be feasible to play out the CNN's first choice move for > > > > evaluation purposes, but considering how well the performance of batch > > > > sizes scales, especially on GPU-based CNN applications, it might be > > > > possible to setup something like 10 candidate moves, 10 reply > > > > candidate moves and then have the CNN play out the first choice move > > > > for those 100 board positions until the end and then sum up scores > > > > again for move evaluation (and/or possibly apply some other tried and > > > > tested methods like minimax). Given that the number of 10 moves is > > > > supposed to be illustrative rather than representative, other > > > > configurations of depth and width in position generation and > > > > evaluation would be possible. > > > > > > > > It feels like CNN can provide a very focused, high-quality width in > > > > move generation, but it might also be possible to apply that quality > > > > to depth of evaluation. > > > > > > > > Any thoughts to share? > > > > > > > > > > > > All the best > > > > > > > > Michael > > > > > > > > On Tue, Dec 8, 2015 at 4:13 PM, Detlef Schmicker <d...@physik.de > > > > <mailto:d...@physik.de>> wrote: > > > > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > > > > > Hash: SHA1 > > > > > > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > > > > > as somebody ask I will offer my actual CNN for testing. > > > > > > > > > > It has 54% prediction on KGS 6d+ data (which I thought would be state > > > > > of the art when I started training, but it is not anymore:). > > > > > > > > > > it has: > > > > > 1 > > > > > 2 > > > > > 3 > > > > >> 4 libs playing color > > > > > 1 > > > > > 2 > > > > > 3 > > > > >> 4 libs opponent color > > > > > Empty points > > > > > last move > > > > > second last move > > > > > third last move > > > > > forth last move > > > > > > > > > > input layers, and it is fully convolutional, so with just editing the > > > > > golast19.prototxt file you can use it for 13x13 as well, as I did on > > > > > last sunday. It was used in November tournament as well. > > > > > > > > > > You can find it > > > > > http://physik.de/CNNlast.tar.gz <http://physik.de/CNNlast.tar.gz> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If you try here some points I like to get discussion: > > > > > > > > > > - - it seems to me, that the playouts get much more important with > > > > > such > > > > > a strong move prediction. Often the move prediction seems better the > > > > > playouts (I use 8000 at the moment against pachi 32000 with about 70% > > > > > winrate on 19x19, but with an extremely focused progressive widening > > > > > (a=400, a=20 was usual). > > > > > > > > > > - - live and death becomes worse. My interpretation is, that the > > > > > strong > > > > > CNN does not play moves, which obviously do not help to get a group > > > > > life, but would help the playouts to recognize the group is dead. > > > > > (http://physik.de/example.sgf <http://physik.de/example.sgf> top > > > > > black group was with weaker move > > > > > prediction read very dead, with good CNN it was 30% alive or so :( > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > OK, hope you try it, as you know our engine oakfoam is open source :) > > > > > We just merged all the CNN stuff into the main branch! > > > > > https://bitbucket.org/francoisvn/oakfoam/wiki/Home > > > > > <https://bitbucket.org/francoisvn/oakfoam/wiki/Home> > > > > > http://oakfoam.com <http://oakfoam.com/> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Do the very best with the CNN > > > > > > > > > > Detlef > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > code: > > > > > if (col==Go::BLACK) { > > > > > for (int j=0;j<size;j++) > > > > > for (int k=0;k<size;k++) > > > > > { > > > > > for (int l=0;l<caffe_test_net_input_dim;l++) > > > > > data[l*size*size+size*j+k]=0; > > > > > //fprintf(stderr,"%d %d %d\n",i,j,k); > > > > > int pos=Go::Position::xy2pos(j,k,size); > > > > > int libs=0; > > > > > if (board->inGroup(pos)) > > > > > libs=board->getGroup(pos)->numRealLibs()-1; > > > > > if (libs>3) libs=3; > > > > > if (board->getColor(pos)==Go::BLACK) > > > > > { > > > > > data[(0+libs)*size*size + size*j + k]=1.0; > > > > > //data[size*size+size*j+k]=0.0; > > > > > } > > > > > else if (board->getColor(pos)==Go::WHITE) > > > > > { > > > > > //data[j*size+k]=0.0; > > > > > data[(4+libs)*size*size + size*j + k]=1.0; > > > > > } > > > > > else if > > > > > (board->getColor(Go::Position::xy2pos(j,k,size))==Go::EMPTY) > > > > > { > > > > > data[8*size*size + size*j + k]=1.0; > > > > > } > > > > > } > > > > > } > > > > > if (col==Go::WHITE) { > > > > > for (int j=0;j<size;j++) > > > > > for (int k=0;k<size;k++) > > > > > {//fprintf(stderr,"%d %d %d\n",i,j,k); > > > > > for (int l=0;l<caffe_test_net_input_dim;l++) > > > > > data[l*size*size+size*j+k]=0; > > > > > //fprintf(stderr,"%d %d %d\n",i,j,k); > > > > > int pos=Go::Position::xy2pos(j,k,size); > > > > > int libs=0; > > > > > if (board->inGroup(pos)) > > > > > libs=board->getGroup(pos)->numRealLibs()-1; > > > > > if (libs>3) libs=3; > > > > > if (board->getColor(pos)==Go::BLACK) > > > > > { > > > > > data[(4+libs)*size*size + size*j + k]=1.0; > > > > > //data[size*size+size*j+k]=0.0; > > > > > } > > > > > else if (board->getColor(pos)==Go::WHITE) > > > > > { > > > > > //data[j*size+k]=0.0; > > > > > data[(0+libs)*size*size + size*j + k]=1.0; > > > > > } > > > > > else if (board->getColor(pos)==Go::EMPTY) > > > > > { > > > > > data[8*size*size + size*j + k]=1.0; > > > > > } > > > > > } > > > > > } > > > > > if (caffe_test_net_input_dim > 9) { > > > > > if (board->getLastMove().isNormal()) { > > > > > int > > > > > j=Go::Position::pos2x(board->getLastMove().getPosition(),size); > > > > > int > > > > > k=Go::Position::pos2y(board->getLastMove().getPosition(),size); > > > > > data[9*size*size+size*j+k]=1.0; > > > > > } > > > > > if (board->getSecondLastMove().isNormal()) { > > > > > int > > > > > j=Go::Position::pos2x(board->getSecondLastMove().getPosition(),size); > > > > > int > > > > > k=Go::Position::pos2y(board->getSecondLastMove().getPosition(),size); > > > > > data[10*size*size+size*j+k]=1.0; > > > > > } > > > > > if (board->getThirdLastMove().isNormal()) { > > > > > int > > > > > j=Go::Position::pos2x(board->getThirdLastMove().getPosition(),size); > > > > > int > > > > > k=Go::Position::pos2y(board->getThirdLastMove().getPosition(),size); > > > > > data[11*size*size+size*j+k]=1.0; > > > > > } > > > > > if (board->getForthLastMove().isNormal()) { > > > > > int > > > > > j=Go::Position::pos2x(board->getForthLastMove().getPosition(),size); > > > > > int > > > > > k=Go::Position::pos2y(board->getForthLastMove().getPosition(),size); > > > > > data[12*size*size+size*j+k]=1.0; > > > > > } > > > > > } > > > > > > > > > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > > > > > Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux) > > > > > > > > > > iQIcBAEBAgAGBQJWZvOlAAoJEInWdHg+Znf4t8cP/2a9fE7rVb3Hz9wvdMkvVkFS > > > > > 4Y3AomVx8i56jexVyXuzKihfizVRM7x6lBiwjYBhj4Rm9UFWjj2ZvDzBGCm3Sy4I > > > > > SpG8D01VnzVR6iC1YTu3ecv9Wo4pTjc7NL5pAxiZDB0V7OTRklfZAYsX4mWyHygn > > > > > cr1pIb79/9QfBf/johmuutXJIwYfVG9ShR1+udbxs3aU3QDAbJJ4eTs8oj+NqFpg > > > > > JolEEEg3wY693e77SqbUbjxR3kSsysoz9h1nKnR/ZjHByqlwNvSz9ho9eU0rKhaK > > > > > GSQ22/c1VPIZhr24FYBbYNYweOzDtonLpuUFCPSnYVels3h/I/LlqV3MeDo6wuZ2 > > > > > QCPp5+11o4JzvEt7A4zfJCtEOEH0W2/+IjRcIkAVOo65OV/pPsz2EjHehMU6PC6m > > > > > vXA/kPx0jqUm1qSb0qCgMq5ZvSqfpcCY7JOlkEwkDBS1fty9sU0hqst3zXR0KGtn > > > > > rFuoREmQYi/mkjZfS2Q4AHiZUDbDZUKzRegUA+gR/eKAmJsmWeTDEI9ZAXgxL0cB > > > > > p1HGBNDEUKGk+ruq0gIe5vYygyBcJV0BbbBnweDjeZnlG8vLUAVoMF6V/q3gkZb1 > > > > > P61rfE4d9dohfGBsZ+UWltRyWMj09ieR2G2zCDpIXyxEuoV6CTAlLzDuhmqFa2ma > > > > > Fp3lK/uLhOucXwBtStdx > > > > > =E47K > > > > > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > Computer-go mailing list > > > > > Computer-go@computer-go.org <mailto:Computer-go@computer-go.org> > > > > > http://computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go > > > > > <http://computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go> > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > Computer-go mailing list > > > > Computer-go@computer-go.org <mailto:Computer-go@computer-go.org> > > > > http://computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go > > > > <http://computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go> > > > > > > -- > > > Petr Baudis > > > If you have good ideas, good data and fast computers, > > > you can do almost anything. -- Geoffrey Hinton > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Computer-go mailing list > > > Computer-go@computer-go.org <mailto:Computer-go@computer-go.org> > > > http://computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go > > > <http://computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go> > > > _______________________________________________ > > Computer-go mailing list > > Computer-go@computer-go.org <mailto:Computer-go@computer-go.org> > > http://computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go > > <http://computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go> > > > -- > Petr Baudis > If you have good ideas, good data and fast computers, > you can do almost anything. -- Geoffrey Hinton > _______________________________________________ > Computer-go mailing list > Computer-go@computer-go.org <mailto:Computer-go@computer-go.org> > http://computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go > <http://computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go> > _______________________________________________ > Computer-go mailing list > Computer-go@computer-go.org > http://computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go
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