First time I used Vista, I couldn't find menus in most of the programs. Then I hit the ALT key and the menus appeared--JUST LIKE IN *DOS*. Now THAT'S really archaic.

You guys are SO used to arguing the rabid PC vs Mac (Hatfield vs. McCoys?) that you automatically assume if someone criticizes one computer system then he/ she is a fan boy of the other.

I was not doing that ... I was just trying to point out some design issues with Aqua that seem blatantly bad to me... that the Mac ... " the better computer" has some surprisingly poorly thought out, "unintuitive" / archaic features...

Can't we have that kind of discussion?

Yes VISTA/ 7 are have features which are absolutely archaic and IGNORANT!. Particularly the fact that MS has started to hide all the menus in their interfaces for the last couple of years .. something that is really bothersome and DUMB but at least you can turn off. They now seem to think the interface is a piece of art that one hangs on the wall or something... it's not ... it's a tool and tools have their controls exposed so they are easily and quickly available to do the work that is their purpose.

Apple menus change because the apps have different purposes. Different menus are good. Fitting "square pegs into round holes" as a menu metaphor is pointless.
All menus are different ... it's just that PC and Linux menus remain intuitively attached to the item they belong to ... so that no one has to give that issue any thought/ confusion or extra clicks about it. Mac menus are only "attached" if you understand how they work ... in other words ... you don't know what they are about intuitively.
It's more efficient for workflow to leave programs open in the background to go back and forth even where windows aren't always open. I usually have five or six programs running and use them all. No need to close and reopen programs that are being used most of the time anyway, unless you don't care about wasting time--that's just bad design. My Mac has enough memory and a fast processor to handle the traffic.
I would point out that the majority of computer users are not experienced pros like us and this Apple menu feature bedevils the majority of average users until the point that they become relatively experienced users.

The "magic" and unattached Apple menu make is so much more difficult to train the uninitiated ... and it causes a number of complications re: what's running?, RAM depletion and file backup.

You may be used to it, understand it completely and take it for granted but it's not a metaphor / design that the brain takes to easily / intuitively. (YES IT WAS when the alternative was DOS but it's not now). You will note that Linux ... a newer system designed by very tech savvy people .. borrows heavily from both Win and Mac but when it came to Menus and Taskbars/ Docks design they didn't go with Mac's whimsical, primitive design initially thought out around 1980 (?) ... they went with the more advanced design that leapfrogged it ... the better concept that windows used in 1995.

My first computer was a Mac ... and I still work with them almost every day ... but because the Dock/Finder/menu systems slows me down so much in handling the large numbers of concurrent windows and programs that I normally juggle, my personal computer is always a win or a linux machine.

Just seems stupidly quirky, sentimental and anachronistic for the great Apple design teams to stay with such outmoded design when at the same time they are doing such brilliant cutting edge work.

I'm willing to bet the Apple engineers' would have long ago redesigned the Menu/Finder/Dock but Job's probably is hopelessly enamored with his "baby" ... as he long was known to be with the 1 button mouse.

In fact, I think the OS X dock was an attempt to catch up the Mac interface design ... which was torpedoed unfortunately by the pride of keeping it substantially different at the same time.

And the newer Mac add-ons to expose the desktop, find the current window, find all the windows, switch windows, more easlily find your program executable are laboriously clumsy and cluged work-arounds that could just be solved by fixing the instruments that were originally designed to perform those functions ... the Finder, dock, and menus

Automobiles used to have starting systems, shift levers, headlight dimmer, horns ... you name it ... all working differently and located all over the interior of the car with each manufacturer. But guess what?... they all work all most identically now and they are all located in the same relative place. By and large better utility won out.... probably because in the case of autos ... form REALLY followed function ... it was dangerous to continue otherwise...

Apple would be better off in its own right if they would give a little now and then when someone else has a better design element...

IMHO,

db


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