Hi, I received the following e-mail from an -- as he says -- non-technical conkeror user. He writes about his view of Conkeror, Debian, Emacs and other things.
When I talked about that mail on IRC, many others thought of a troll or at least a flamebait. I have not the feeling that the purpose is to just bother some developers but that someone really tries to get comfortable with Conkeror, but stumbles a little bit. And I even think so although the first mail was bascially an empty mail with an attached text file called "conk-rant.txt". In my experience, rants help a lot to understand some of your own misconceptions, because people tend to defend their "child" and write detailed explanations why you are wrong. It's those details you seldom get with just asking. :-) And yeah, he's surely not right with a few things, but I think this is possibly caused by missing or maybe misleading documentation. So let's fix that. I will reply to his mail, too, with Cc to the list and suggest him to subscribe to the list. ----- Forwarded message from Lawrence Barnes <[email protected]> ----- From: Lawrence Barnes <[email protected]> Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2009 12:57:34 +0700 Reply-To: [email protected] Subject: Debian's direction To: [email protected] User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.18 (2008-05-17) Dear Mr. Beckert: This message is addressed to you because you are the author of the Debian Conkeror package, and because your posts at noone.org suggest that you may be receptive to a few observations from a Debian user. Please forgive my imposition on your time. I am writing to express a few opinions regarding Conkeror and related matters; accordingly it would be best if I introduce myself. What I am not is actually more important than what I am: I am not a formal student of IT, not an IT professional, and not a computer hobbyist. I am a computer user whose tasks include communicating by e-mail, gathering information from the internet, writing and editing texts, and publishing a tiny free newsletter in HTML format. My other uses for a computer are trivial. My experience began with DOS before the advent of Windows, but I never set out to learn any aspect of programming. Over ten years ago, many problems with Windows led me to ask about Linux, and I was told I am too stupid to use that OS. That led me to install SuSE on a laptop. I have learned a few things, but I remain what I call "an eternal newbie." I do not like using the GUI or the mouse, and am increasingly unhappy with Iceweasel in whatever version. I prefer to work from the command line. I use Xemacs (instead of Emacs because Xemacs highlights marked text) rather than any word processor, and I continue to expand my (limited) capabilities in TeTeX/LaTeX. So I hoped to make Conkeror part of my toolkit. As I read about Conkeror, I became enthusiastic, but I was dismayed to discover that I must have some ability in JavaScript. A little investigation told me this skill is not trivial, and, beyond giving me access to Conkeror, would be of no help with my tasks. (To me, a computer is a tool, a kind of super-typewriter. It's not a field of study such as history or philosophy.) Then, in my attempt to download and install the latest version of your Debian package, I discovered that my apt sources list had problems. On updating, I was causing an (apparently) infinite task to begin: my computer was attempting to resolve deficiencies in Testing. A review of sources on the internet regarding pinning and the use of multiple sources was of no help. Following the instructions, in other words, was useless. This leads me to ask you two questions: 1. Would it not be a good idea to tell those investigating Conkeror that they will have to write instructions in JavaScript? It seems to me that fact should be placed near the beginning of any description of Conkeror. 2. Can we assume that there are other "eternal newbies" like me, Debian users who are disenchanted with the GUI, Iceweasel, and the mouse, and who would love to use Conkeror? I believe we can, and I think these folks could use some help. I suggest that Conkeror take the Mutt approach. There are lots of config files on the internet for Mutt, so newbies don't have to solve the puzzle anew. One copies, cuts and pastes, and starts using Mutt. Mutt, sophisticated as it is, is for everybody because its developers and users want it that way. That leads to a third question that has an indirect connection to Conkeror: why can't the Debian community have a current, accurate set of instructions that actually WORKS for sources.list? I note the wonderful HOWTO by rickh on the Debian Forum, but it is out of date. Now if some poor newbie (like me) wants Conkeror, and is willing to set apt up properly so he can run Lenny and use the Testing/Unstable version of Conkeror, can't someone take pity on him and tell him how to do it these days? I suggest strongly that Conkeror's documentation should include instructions on taking care of the apt sources.list so that it does not run amok. As a very ordinary user, I feel excluded by applications that require skills I do not have the time or desire to acquire (such as writing JavaScript). I have work to do; that work does not allow time for me to study for weeks to learn something I won't use twice. I have to feel that because I am not in the "1337," I am prevented from running an app that I probably would love. And I am puzzled by the attitude of Debian insiders who seem to be comfortable with the idea that I can't have a pretty straightforward option in my box because I'm not qualified. I think if we take a close look at that concept, we'll see that it is bankrupt and even dangerous to those who hold it. Consider what could happen. Debian (and Linux) users in general may find that they can enjoy a reasonable range of choices only if they become adept in arcane skills that are utterly unnecessary to the task. Eventually they are going to ask questions like, "Who must be a coder in order to use the GUI? Who has to know Lisp to use Emacs?" If users who are trying to simplify their apps and get rid of the eye candy and nonsense can do so only after they master what I would call non-essential skills, where is Linux headed? To answer my own question: into esoteric strata where those simply wishing to use the tools created by software developers are not welcome. Is that what we want? Didn't the Debian community make a conscious decision to include rather than exclude people when it created the deb and apt concepts? The wisdom of Debian's choices was made clear when big rpm-based distros like SuSE adopted apt. Debian's tradition is to make the tools of computing accessible; other distros make the tools and procedures downright off-putting. I believe something like one-third of all distros were either Debian or Debian-based, the last time I looked. We have a tradition that others respect, and it seems to me we should honor it. I recall telling my nephew that he was making a mistake to go on the internet with Windows, and that he should install Linux on his box. His response stunned me: "Yeah, but don't you have to learn a foreign language to use Linux?" Today I find there was an element of unfortunate truth in his ignorant question. I hope my comments have been provocative, even if they include a number of factual errors and misconceptions. Please understand that I felt motivated to write you because some hours spent searching and studying left me feeling disappointed...and then concerned. I would hate to see Debian retreat behind a barrier that keeps people like me out. And yes, I do understand that the more I know, the more I can do; it's just that I have the feeling that I am being excluded for a very silly, very unnecessary, and very counterproductive reason. Again: why should anyone have to know Lisp to use Emacs? When Debian users start asking that question, it will be because too many Debian apps are excluding all but hard-core IT wizards. Debian will become a niche distro, which won't help anybody. The world needs only one Slackware. (I don't mean to ridicule Patrick and his people. I have long said, "If you have a tough Linux question that is not distro-specific, ask a Slackware user.") Thank you very much indeed for taking the time to read this. I do not want or expect a reply. My intent is simply to ask you to consider comments that come from a segment of the Debian community that does not want to be pushed aside as irrelevant. Gratefully, Lawrence Barnes ----- End forwarded message ----- I also got his permission to post it to the mailing list: ----- Forwarded message from Lawrence Barnes <[email protected]> ----- From: Lawrence Barnes <[email protected]> Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2009 17:49:13 +0700 Reply-To: [email protected] Subject: Debian's direction To: Axel Beckert <[email protected]> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.18 (2008-05-17) On Thu, Sep 24, 2009 at 11:11:18AM +0200, Axel Beckert wrote: > Dear Mr. Barnes, > If you allow me, I would also like to forward your mail to at least > other Conkeror developers or the Conkeror users mailing list for a > more open discussion of your points. Yes, of course you have my permission! I do think it would be best if the entire text were passed along, though. I would like everyone to have a copy of the full message. Thanks in advance. If you wish to respond in detail, I'll be pleased to read your remarks. > I definitely appreciate your feedback, especially because it is from a > non-technical user and it shows that Conkeror is even interesting for > them. I confess surprise: it seems to me a browser of this sort would be of interest to a lot of non-technical users. > With regards to Debian: The goal of Debian is to be a universal > operating system which also includes software most people can't use or > control. (Of course that shouldn't count for web browsers. :-) The > goal you described is surely existent in Debian, but I'm not sure if > it's really the highest priority. I would rather expect that this goal > is the highest priority in Ubuntu -- which also comes with the Debian > Conkeror package with just a little lag. And Ubuntu makes an effort to provide a working rcfile in JavaScript, so the Ubuntu user can start Conkeror? I doubt it. I could find no sample rcfile for Conkeror on the internet. Again, consider the example of Mutt. -- I'm repeating myself. > One more thing now: The next conkeror package (which will come in the > next days) will for the first time include some Debian and Ubuntu > specific webjumps so that Debian and Ubuntu users don't need to add > them theirself. Jumps are great, but I can't get Conkeror to display because there are no settings for the display. Evidently I have to put those settings into the rcfile. In JavaScript. But I'm not sure, because the instructions don't deal with all the circumstances. All the best, Lawrence ----- End forwarded message ----- Regards, Axel (Maintainer of the Debian conkeror package) -- Axel Beckert - [email protected], [email protected] - http://noone.org/abe/ _______________________________________________ Conkeror mailing list [email protected] https://www.mozdev.org/mailman/listinfo/conkeror
