------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~-->
Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar.
Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free!
http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/GSaulB/TM
--------------------------------------------------------------------~->
There are 25 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1. new conlang- B�huenagwon
From: Rodlox <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2. Re: A noun class system
From: Carsten Becker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3. Re: Flag: Volunteer needed
From: PMVA <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4. Hebrew spelling
From: David H <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5. Getting a job in the Linguistics sector ... ?
From: Carsten Becker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6. Re: Article wierdness
From: Doug Dee <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7. Re: Flag: Volunteer needed
From: Rodlox <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8. Re: Orthographic miscellanea (was: Chinese Romanization etc)
From: Tamas Racsko <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9. Re: Chinese Romanization (was: USAGE: Help with Chinese phrase)
From: Tamas Racsko <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10. Re: Spanish ll in different dialects
From: Tamas Racsko <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11. Re: Conlang Flag: Voting
From: "Adrian Morgan (aka Flesh-eating Dragon)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12. Re: Article wierdness
From: Philippe Caquant <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13. Re: Getting a job in the Linguistics sector ... ?
From: John Cowan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14. Re: The fourteen vowels of English?
From: Benct Philip Jonsson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15. Re: The fourteen vowels of English?
From: "Mark J. Reed" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16. Re: The fourteen vowels of English?
From: "Thomas R. Wier" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17. Re: Article wierdness
From: John Cowan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18. Re: Getting a job in the Linguistics sector ... ?
From: And Rosta <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19. Re: Article wierdness
From: "Mark J. Reed" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20. Re: Article wierdness
From: John Cowan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21. Re: Article wierdness
From: Philippe Caquant <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22. Re: More orthographic miscellanea (was: Chinese Romanization)
From: Tamas Racsko <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23. Re: Conlang Flag: Voting
From: Arthaey Angosii <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24. Re: Flag: Volunteer needed
From: Robert B Wilson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25. Re: Flag: Volunteer needed
From: PMVA <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 1
Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2004 14:03:12 +0200
From: Rodlox <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: new conlang- B�huenagwon
starting out here...hi.
Some suffixes that may or may not be Verbs:
Volcanic:
Heat:
Bake -�rr
Dry-baked 'ea
Sun-baked 'eo
Oven-baked 'eu
Bowl-baked 'ei
Volcano -�r
Erupt 'oa
Steam 'ou
Flow 'oi
Explode 'oe
Dormant 'oy
Dry
Dehydrate 'ye
Heat Haze 'ya
Cool:
Cool -�t
Breeze 'ae
Frost 'ao
Cold -�s
Ice 'yi
Snow 'yo
Sedimentary:
Earth:
Clays stye
-
-
- (silts?)
Stones
-
-
-
Calcium
- bones
- shells
Metals
-
-
-
(?)
to do = yols
to make = yels
to shape = yals
and [simaltaneously] = ch�k
and [plural] = ch�k
and [following, therefore] = chak
from part of the Babel Text: 'to shape and sunbake clay' = stye-�rr'eo
yols-e chak
Word order is Subject-Verb-Etc.
�����������������������ܢ��Pf�����Ѫ��_�irSSRRSrRuUrSsrSss - alt351.
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 2
Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2004 12:46:44 +0200
From: Carsten Becker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: A noun class system
Hello!
On Thursday 09 September 2004 22:06, David Peterson wrote:
> I've noticed that it's near impossible to make short
> words, i.e., monosyllabic words. I don't think there are
> any monosyllabic nouns in Zhyler (well, maybe one or two),
> whereas in a language like English, most "basic" words are
> monosyllabic.
I've got the same problem:
In Ayeri, names would have *at least* 3 syllables. Most
nouns are two-syllabic, and when you have a name that
consists of two compounds (which is very likely) the
syllable count grows and grows. There may be following one
of the suffixes for boys' or girls' names. Ayeri does not
divide into m/f/n but into ani/inan.
E.g. "Mooneye" would be Colunniva (colun = moon; niva =
eye), and when it's a boy you maybe have -co, -dan, or -yan
(yan = boy), when it's a girl you maybe have -lai/lay(ra)
(layra = girl) or -vae (vae = maiden): Colunnivaco,
Colunnivadan, Colunnivayan; Colunnivalai, Colunnivalay,
Colunnivalayra, Colunnivae. Plus family name, which is put
in front one's name. Nevertheless, compared with Indian or
Sri-Lankese names, this would be short. But there are still
the case markers (picking the longest version):
_Colunnivalayr�ris_. Maybe I should better put the case
marker in front, e.g. sth. like _sira ca Colunnivalayra_?
(_ca_ is the linker morpheme, like Tagalog _ng_) ...
Mooneye goes into the forest: Colunnivalayrin manga cong
vinimea ang saraiy�. -- English is much more efficient,
basta!
Carsten
--
Eri silvev�ng aibannama padangin.
Nivaie evaenain eri ming silvoiev�ng caparei.
- Antoine de Saint-Exup�ry, Le Petit Prince
-> http://www.beckerscarsten.de/?conlang=ayeri
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 3
Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2004 13:56:07 +0200
From: PMVA <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Flag: Volunteer needed
Adrian Morgan (aka Flesh-eating Dragon) ta nugatu-r:
> Having created the account and uploaded the relevant files, I can't
> figure out where the hell they are!
> If the FTP host is username.freeserverhost.net and the Access Path is
> /www/ then surely the URL should be
> http://username.freeserverhost.net/www/nameofpage.php
> Where should I be looking?
Try:
http://username.freeserverhost.net/nameofpage.php
http://www.freeserverhost.net/~username/nameofpage.php
--
/\ P. M. Arktayg pmva[na]avenned.org /\
\/ "rubba s.idqin ka:na ?akd_aba min kid_bin" \/
\/\/ 'cz�sto prawda jest bardziej k�amliwa ni� k�amstwo' \/\/
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 4
Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2004 08:01:46 -0400
From: David H <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Hebrew spelling
Hello. I would like to know which is the correct spelling for the
word "akhshav" (now), I have seen two versions of this word, one
spelt "ayin, kaf, shin vav" and "ayin kaf shin YOD vav", I would like to
know why this extra yod is added in unvocalised spelling, because I have
certainly never heard it pronounced akhshayv. Also, is there any specific
rule as to when I should spell unovcalised words with an extra yod?
Thanks
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 5
Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2004 14:29:10 +0200
From: Carsten Becker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Getting a job in the Linguistics sector ... ?
Hey!
WARNING! THIS MAY VIOLATE THE "NO CROSS/NO CROWN" RULE!!
So my parents and me together wrote to the Deutsche
Bibelgesellschaft just to find out if it is possible to
combine Linguistics with working in the Christian sector.
I take the freedom to translate the two mails into English.
I have the strange feeling my father, who sent the original
mail, added some little things without asking me *mad at my
dad*
However, according to what Mr M�ller writes, I think I
should better work as something else, because it would
be an immense effort (sp?) to study and major in Theology
and Linguistics. Addidtionally, it would cost much money
and even more time. I'd need a stipendium and 15 years when
I'm quick, my parents said. OTOH, my parents assume I would
have a safe job, because it would be so specific that there
are not many people who'd do things like that.
Ralf Mueller wrote on Fri, 10 Sep 2004 10:46:32 +0200:
> Dear Mr Becker,
>
> You might also want to ask at the Translation Dept. of
> the United Bible Societies (Coordinator Phil Noss)
> www.biblesociety.org <http://www.biblesociety.org> or at SIL
International www.sil.org <http://www.sil.org>.
> Worldwide, there are about 600 translation projects at the
> moment. The Deutsche Bibelgesellschaft demands finished
> studies of Theology and secondary studies (plus a
> doctorate). Here, we only translate into German.
>
>
> Sincerely yours,
> Ralf Thomas M�ller
>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: **** at beckerscarsten dot de
>> Sent: Sun, 22 August 2004 17:41
>> To: ******* at dbg dot de
>> Subject: (Contact Form)
>>
>> Message via Contact Form
>>
>> --------------------------------------------------------
>> Name, Surname: Becker, Carsten
>> Address: ************** 5, 34497 Korbach
>> Telephone: 05***-******
>> E-Mail: **** at beckerscarsten dot de
>> --------------------------------------------------------
>> Ladies and Gentlemen,
>>
>> I'm now going to be in 12th grade of the local grammar
>> school and will most probably pass my A-Levels in
>> May/June 2006. I am writing to you, because I have some
>> questions concerning a possible occupation in the sector
>> of Bible translations.
>>
>> For a while, I am interested in languages in general
>> (English, German)
=> I did not mean only German & English!
>> and especially Linguistics. So I find
>> participating at the "Conlang
>> Mailinglist" (listserv.brown.edu/archives/conlang.html)
>> and at the "Zompist Bulletin
>> Board" (http://www.spinnoff.com/zbb) very interesting.
>> Both are forums that deal with the invention of
>> languages. Here I already have contributed things about
>> my own projects (www.beckerscarsten.de/?goto=conlanging
<http://www.beckerscarsten.de/?goto=conlanging>).
>> Furthermore, I am active in my congregation (Evangelische
>> Gemeinschaft, Korbach and Christian Endeavour).
>>
>> My question: Could you please give me a competent person
>> to contact who can give me information in how far both
>> things -- study of languages and working in the Christian
>> (linguistic) sector -- are combinable?
>>
>> I am imagining a job where I can do research on languages
>> (Field Linguistics) and do work on them mulitimedically
DAAAAD! Why has everything to be "multimedically" when it
comes to what I maybe could work as?
>> resp. accompany the work on the languages e.g. for making
>> a translation of the Bible possible for them.
>>
>> Further questions I have got are, which professions are
>> there that go into that direction, which requirements are
>> needed and what would I have to learn to get nearer to my
>> choice of career?
>>
>> Many thanks for answering soon.
>> Carsten Becker, Korbach
Cheers,
Carsten
--
Eri silvev�ng aibannama padangin.
Nivaie evaenain eri ming silvoiev�ng caparei.
- Antoine de Saint-Exup�ry, Le Petit Prince
-> http://www.beckerscarsten.de/?conlang=ayeri
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 6
Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2004 08:45:32 EDT
From: Doug Dee <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Article wierdness
In a message dated 9/11/2004 12:00:59 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
>"It isn't a bowl of lion's eye soup unless it contains the eye of a lion."
>This morning it struck me that it's a wierd peculiarity of English to
>use the definite article before 'eye' in that context. Lions, after
>all, have two eyes, so logic dictates that the article should be
>indefinite. However, when a part of a whole is an ingredient in a
>recipe, it seems that we use the definite article to refer to the part
>(this doesn't apply to measurements - it's "the eye of a lion", but
>it's "a cup of water").
>Is there a deeper layer of logic here? Has this phenomenon been
>studied?
It seems to me that similar usages occur in other contexts in English, and
also in other languages.
If I recall my French correctly, the usual way to raise "Raise your hand," is
"Levez la main" literally "Raise the hand," even though most of us have two
hands, so that perhaps "Raise a hand" would seem more logical.
In English, I see nothing peculiar about a sentence like "Some jerk threw a
brick through the window in my living room," even if in fact my living room has
more than one window (so that I could have said "a window"). This seems to
me to be essentialy parallel to the "lion's eye" example.
Doug
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 7
Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2004 16:26:30 +0200
From: Rodlox <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Flag: Volunteer needed
----- Original Message -----
From: PMVA <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Saturday, September 11, 2004 1:56 PM
Subject: Re: Flag: Volunteer needed
> > http://username.freeserverhost.net/www/nameofpage.php
> http://username.freeserverhost.net/nameofpage.php
>
> http://www.freeserverhost.net/~username/nameofpage.php
all three of these give "page cannot be found" results.
sorry.
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 8
Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2004 14:35:02 +0100
From: Tamas Racsko <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Orthographic miscellanea (was: Chinese Romanization etc)
On 9 Sep 2004 Ray wrote:
> [...]
Finally we are in accord.
> But the fact that Pinyin renders palatal glides in codas as |i| should
> make it clear that |y| is not a glide here, but part of a graphy whereby
> |yu| = [y].
It is true and I do not want to argue with you, but in another
syllogism (i.e. in mine), the solution can be another. E.g. when
|u| occurs in VV sequence (V = vowel or glide), it always denotes a
glide.
> One German visitor who stayed with us several years ago told me that
> |�|, |�| and |�| should be written as |AE|, |OE| and |UE| when writing
> in block capitals. I don't know whether this is universally true or just
> a habit of hers.
I do not know the German way of handwriting but originally a
small |e| was used instead of the umlaut (trema, diaeresis) as an
accent (in Hungary until the middle if 18th century; in Germany,
too, but I do not know the date of its ceasing). This is the
historical reason of interchangeability of |�| ~ |oe|, |�| ~ |ue|
and in German |�| ~ |ae| as well (i.e. diacritic was written either
on the base letter or after it in line; cf. Greek usage on iota
substriptum vs. adscriptum).
In my Slovak-Hungarian-German dictionary from 1871, typesetted
German capitals have no accent but they are replaced by digraphs
|Ae|, |Oe| and |Ue| (|e| is lowercase). However in a German-French
dictionary from 1929, diacritical mark is used also on capitals. I
have a sample chart of "Gothic" current handwriting of Ludwig
S�tterlin. It was thought in schools in Germany between 1915-1941.
In this script captitals had accent (however in form of double
acute instead of double dots).
According to the above, it seems that accents were used on German
capitals from the beginning of 20th century, but it is possible
that digraphs survived until now in special applications and/or in
usage of special (cultural) groups. (N.B. Neither of my above
examples was black capital, but typesetted and cursive handwriting;
and they were
all "Gothic".)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 9
Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2004 13:03:51 +0100
From: Tamas Racsko <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Chinese Romanization (was: USAGE: Help with Chinese phrase)
On 9 Sep 2004 11:48:43 "Isaac A. Penzev" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> One more side note: the Turkish alphabet is an adaptation (sic!) of
> Azeri "New Alphabet" ("Yenalif"), that was designed in 1920s by Soviet
> linguists.
It is very convincing.
> Just a side note: Romanian was written with Cyrillic letters till 1859.
> Latin orthography was introduced after independent Romanian state
> came to existence, as a symbol of Westernization and being a "Romance"
> country. So in 1930s Moldovan Romanians simply returned to their native
> orthography (that I personally find very aesthetic).
Just a side note from me: Azeris changed their Yenalif to
Cyrillic in 1939/40. Tadjiks, Bashkirs etc. in USSR changes their
Latin script also in 1939/40, almost almost every Soviet nation
introduced Cyrillic orthography in 1939/40. And "suprisingly"
Moldovans returned back to their "native" orthography just in the
same time. I do not feel this sudden Pan-Soviet change a natural,
spontaneous process...
Rumanian was no a literary language (there was nor a common
standard) until the middle of 19th century (i.e until Vasile
Alecsandi). Earlier Rumanian was a folk-speech, because the
language of the royal chancellary and nobility was Church Slavonic
until 18th century, later Greek and French were used in the Regat
(in Moldavia and Wallachia), or Latin, Hungarian and German in
Transsylvania.
Therefore there was no Rumanian "orthography" until 1859, at all.
The conventions used were only transcriptions on the basis of
another language. That was Church Slavonic, and Latin in
Transsylvania.
The first attempts for creation a literary language came from the
|S,coala Ardeleana(| 'Transsylvanian School' on the turn of the 18-
19th century and they had Latin traditions as citizens of Hungary.
This was the reason that Latin script was used for the freshly
developed literary language of a freshly founded state (Moldavia
and Wallachia were united in this year, and this was the first de
facto independent Rumanian state after 14th cenrury). Moreover
previous Cyrillic tranditions were based on Church Slavonic, while
Moldavian orthography
was a mutation of the post-1917 Russian script.
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 10
Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2004 15:18:08 +0100
From: Tamas Racsko <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Spanish ll in different dialects
On 9 Sep 2004 Mark Reed <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I wonder if you don't really mean y + circumflex, which is not in
> Latin-1.
You are absolutely right, I meant y with circumplex (this was the
reason of notation |y^|) but wrote erroneously y with acute.
> Can you not send accented characters from freemail.hu? both n+tilde (�)
> and y+acute (�) are standard Latin-1 characters that pass unscathed
> through even our wonky listserv software.
I use Latin-2 (Central European) codeset here. I have "y with
acute" but "n with tilde" is actually "n with acute" here.
Moreover, there were cases when my |�|'s (o with umlaut) and |�|'s
(u with umlaut) were replaced by they quote-printable
reprezentations |=F6| and |=FC|. Therefore I decided to avoid any
diacritics as much as possible.
> From the lack of mention of dialectical limitations I would guess that
> it is probably a feature that doesn't characterize certain dialects so
> much as appear in several; nevertheless I'm sure it is mostly limited to
> a certain subset.
I am not in the position to argue with you. But it is somehow
disturbing for me that the textbook I cited did not mention that
|y| in the given positions could be pronounced otherwise but as an
affricate |y^|. (N.B. According to the phonetical transciption, it
is not exactly the voiced pair of |ch| /tS/, rather a Spanish |y|
/j\/ starting from a plosive phase.)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 11
Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2004 22:42:35 +0930
From: "Adrian Morgan (aka Flesh-eating Dragon)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Conlang Flag: Voting
You can test the beta version of the voting form at:
http://gzarondar.freeserverhost.net/flagvote.php
All feedback gratefully received. Try submitting both valid votes and
invalid votes, and see if you think the form responds appropriately
and informatively.
Adrian.
(P.S. The earlier difficulty was a result of my not uploading the
files to the correct directory. In the end I found this out by asking
for help at the support centre.)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 12
Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2004 07:09:23 -0700
From: Philippe Caquant <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Article wierdness
--- Doug Dee <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> If I recall my French correctly, the usual way to
> raise "Raise your hand," is
> "Levez la main" literally "Raise the hand," even
> though most of us have two
> hands, so that perhaps "Raise a hand" would seem
> more logical.
I guess that usually, when a Frenchman is told to
"lever la main", he raises the most usual one
(statistically, the right one). Maybe the left-handed
people will raise their left hand, I have done no
particular study on that topic. But to me the English
way sounds rather odd: raise "your" hand ? Why, of
course, I won't raise my neighbour's one...
One says: "Serrons-nous la main for "let's shake
hands"; do the English shake four hands ?
On the other hand, if I may speak so, there is an
expression "crachons dans nos mains !" ("let's spit in
our [both] hands", then rub them together, before
starting a hard job). I had a teacher who used to say
it in a more precise way: "crachons dans nos mains,
chacun dans les siennes !" (let's spit in our hands,
every one in his owns). This precision seems useful,
because some might understand it in a reciprocal
meaning.
=====
Philippe Caquant
Barbarus hic ego sum, quia non intellegor illis (Ovidius).
Populus me sibilat, at mihi plaudo (Horatius).
Interdum stultus opportune loquitur (Henry Fielding).
Scire leges non hoc est verba earum tenere, sed vim ac potestatem (Somebody).
Melius est ut scandalum oriatur, quam ut veritas relinquatur (Somebody else).
Ceterum censeo *vi* esse oblitterandum (Me).
_______________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Shop for Back-to-School deals on Yahoo! Shopping.
http://shopping.yahoo.com/backtoschool
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 13
Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2004 10:19:29 -0400
From: John Cowan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Getting a job in the Linguistics sector ... ?
Carsten Becker scripsit:
> WARNING! THIS MAY VIOLATE THE "NO CROSS/NO CROWN" RULE!!
Of course not. It neither argues nor advocates religion.
John Cowan, Lord of the Instrumentality of Conlang
--
A: "Spiro conjectures Ex-Lax." John Cowan
Q: "What does Pat Nixon frost her cakes with?" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
--"Jeopardy" for generative semanticists http://www.ccil.org/~cowan
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 14
Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2004 16:19:28 +0200
From: Benct Philip Jonsson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: The fourteen vowels of English?
Paul Bennett wrote:
> Be aware my IPA transcription is untutored, and may be iffy. However, I
> need to study the vowels of English if I'm ever to get this script
> underway. It's definitely going to be onset/peak/coda and not
> onset/peak+coda, as I originally planned. One glyph for each phoneme of
> English, as dialect-agnostic as possible.
The only way to reasonably achieve this is to reconstruct English
pronunciation before The Great Divide, i.e. the common ancestor of
all modern dialects somewhen in the early 17th century, plus catering
for major splits that have occurred somewhere since then. It is not
actually as hard as it may seem, since standard orthography reflects
a state much closer to The Great Divide, though not identical.
--
/BP 8^)
--
B.Philip Jonsson -- melroch at melroch dot se
Solitudinem faciunt pacem appellant!
(Tacitus)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 15
Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2004 10:19:17 -0400
From: "Mark J. Reed" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: The fourteen vowels of English?
On Sat, Sep 11, 2004 at 10:03:02AM -0000, Christian Thalmann wrote:
> Hmmm... so you don't say "dayum" for "damn"? ;-)
Heh. Not genrally. Only in the set phrase "Well, dayum!" :)
-Marcos
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 16
Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2004 09:19:49 -0500
From: "Thomas R. Wier" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: The fourteen vowels of English?
From: Trebor Jung <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Well, here's my 'lect's vocalic inventory (including diphthongs):
>
> heed /i/ ; *heared /ir\/ [Is there such a word at all??] ; hid /I/;
> head /E/ ; haired /Er\/ [Is that even a word??]
Yes: as in "brown-haired"
> had /&/ ; heard, herd /r\=/ ; hawed /A/; hard /Ar\/; HUD /V/
> [Would anyone be so kind as to look through their dictionary to see
> if there are any words [hVd]?]
Besides the American federal bureacracy of that name already
mentioned, I seem to recall reading of an obscure term for the
skin of a peanut spelled and pronounced this way.
> A quick question: I've seen /EI)/, e.g., as well as /Ej)/. Is there
> a difference?
It depends on the language and at what level of organization
you're speaking. There are languages which have palatal glides
like /j/ which nonetheless treat such an offglide phonemically
as /i/. So, do as you see fit.
-----------------------------------------------------------
From: Steven Williams
> I have a funny little split I noticed in my dialect
> (standard American, mild Southern influence). In
> certain words, I pronounce [&] something like [&@],
> and in others, it's straight [&]. Examples:
>
> /man/ [m&@n] (or [mn=] in compounds where it's
> unstressed)
> /fare/ [f&r\] or [fEr\]
> /nab/ [n&@b]
> /nap/ [n&p]
> /hang/ [h&N] or [hEN]
> /nag/ [n&@g]
> /had/ [h&@d]
> /has/ [h&z]
> /ham/ [h&@m]
[...]
> Anyone else have this speech characteristic? It's very
> common around where I live (central Florida) and seems
> to be just a general American phonetic phenomenon.
These features are very common in most Southern American
dialects. In my dialect, as in many Southern ones, all
front vowels are raised before nasals, as well as before
/r/, which explains the distribution you see here. In
all English dialects of which I'm aware, vowels are slightly
lengthened before voiced consonants, which explains your
pronunciation of "nab". The fact that, unlike many Southern
dialects, you do not lengthen the vowel in all monosyllabic
words as you do not in "nap", suggests to me that maybe
these aren't precisely schwas you're saying, but just mainly
the vowel length. (I'd have to hear myself to be sure.)
==========================================================================
Thomas Wier "I find it useful to meet my subjects personally,
Dept. of Linguistics because our secret police don't get it right
University of Chicago half the time." -- octogenarian Sheikh Zayed of
1010 E. 59th Street Abu Dhabi, to a French reporter.
Chicago, IL 60637
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 17
Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2004 10:30:38 -0400
From: John Cowan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Article wierdness
Doug Dee scripsit:
> If I recall my French correctly, the usual way to raise "Raise your
> hand," is "Levez la main" literally "Raise the hand," even though
> most of us have two hands, so that perhaps "Raise a hand" would seem
> more logical.
This is why I keep arguing that the French "definite" article isn't
really definite any more; it's been bleached of most of its definiteness
and serves mostly as the default determiner, the one that applies when
there is no specific reason to use anything else.
English though is notable for its insistence on redundant possessive
determiners: "He put his hands in his pockets" is the only idiomatic
way of saying that, even though it's obvious that people normally
put their own hands in their own pockets.
<rant>
I was reading Rickard's _History of the French Language_, and it
struck me forcibly how Old French is essentially Modern English with
Romance words; the word order feels very natural in English, and
even such contrasts as "mange pain" vs. "mange du pain" match English
"eat bread" vs "eat of the bread" exactly; that is, the last (which
is the only form in ModF) is used only when some specific bread
has already been mentioned.
Rickard points out that learning OF requires first forgetting ModF;
in particular, masculine nouns take -s in the singular and drop it
in the plural.
--
Only do what only you can do. John Cowan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--Edsger W. Dijkstra's advice http://www.reutershealth.com
to a student in search of a thesis http://www.ccil.org/~cowan
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 18
Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2004 15:41:27 +0100
From: And Rosta <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Getting a job in the Linguistics sector ... ?
----- Original Message -----
From: "Carsten Becker" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> So my parents and me together wrote to the Deutsche
> Bibelgesellschaft just to find out if it is possible to
> combine Linguistics with working in the Christian sector.
> I take the freedom to translate the two mails into English.
> I have the strange feeling my father, who sent the original
> mail, added some little things without asking me *mad at my
> dad*
> However, according to what Mr M�ller writes, I think I
> should better work as something else, because it would
> be an immense effort (sp?) to study and major in Theology
> and Linguistics.
I have had students go off to work for SIL and for the
Wycliffe Foundation (www.wycliffe.org). If their experience
is anything to go by, your contribution would be greatly
appreciated.
As for the studies, I believe those organizations provide
in-house training, so prior studies are not a prerequisite.
As for combining Linguistics and Theology, I don't know
anything about German degree programmes, but it should be
possible to find somewhere in the UK where they can be
combined (where I used to teach, you could combine
Theology with English Linguistics, but General Linguistics
was not offered).
--And.
> Addidtionally, it would cost much money
> and even more time. I'd need a stipendium and 15 years when
> I'm quick, my parents said. OTOH, my parents assume I would
> have a safe job, because it would be so specific that there
> are not many people who'd do things like that.
>
>
> Ralf Mueller wrote on Fri, 10 Sep 2004 10:46:32 +0200:
>
> > Dear Mr Becker,
> >
> > You might also want to ask at the Translation Dept. of
> > the United Bible Societies (Coordinator Phil Noss)
> > www.biblesociety.org <http://www.biblesociety.org> or at SIL
> International www.sil.org <http://www.sil.org>.
> > Worldwide, there are about 600 translation projects at the
> > moment. The Deutsche Bibelgesellschaft demands finished
> > studies of Theology and secondary studies (plus a
> > doctorate). Here, we only translate into German.
> >
> >
> > Sincerely yours,
> > Ralf Thomas M�ller
> >
> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> From: **** at beckerscarsten dot de
> >> Sent: Sun, 22 August 2004 17:41
> >> To: ******* at dbg dot de
> >> Subject: (Contact Form)
> >>
> >> Message via Contact Form
> >>
> >> --------------------------------------------------------
> >> Name, Surname: Becker, Carsten
> >> Address: ************** 5, 34497 Korbach
> >> Telephone: 05***-******
> >> E-Mail: **** at beckerscarsten dot de
> >> --------------------------------------------------------
> >> Ladies and Gentlemen,
> >>
> >> I'm now going to be in 12th grade of the local grammar
> >> school and will most probably pass my A-Levels in
> >> May/June 2006. I am writing to you, because I have some
> >> questions concerning a possible occupation in the sector
> >> of Bible translations.
> >>
> >> For a while, I am interested in languages in general
> >> (English, German)
>
> => I did not mean only German & English!
>
> >> and especially Linguistics. So I find
> >> participating at the "Conlang
> >> Mailinglist" (listserv.brown.edu/archives/conlang.html)
> >> and at the "Zompist Bulletin
> >> Board" (http://www.spinnoff.com/zbb) very interesting.
> >> Both are forums that deal with the invention of
> >> languages. Here I already have contributed things about
> >> my own projects (www.beckerscarsten.de/?goto=conlanging
> <http://www.beckerscarsten.de/?goto=conlanging>).
> >> Furthermore, I am active in my congregation (Evangelische
> >> Gemeinschaft, Korbach and Christian Endeavour).
> >>
> >> My question: Could you please give me a competent person
> >> to contact who can give me information in how far both
> >> things -- study of languages and working in the Christian
> >> (linguistic) sector -- are combinable?
> >>
> >> I am imagining a job where I can do research on languages
> >> (Field Linguistics) and do work on them mulitimedically
>
> DAAAAD! Why has everything to be "multimedically" when it
> comes to what I maybe could work as?
>
> >> resp. accompany the work on the languages e.g. for making
> >> a translation of the Bible possible for them.
> >>
> >> Further questions I have got are, which professions are
> >> there that go into that direction, which requirements are
> >> needed and what would I have to learn to get nearer to my
> >> choice of career?
> >>
> >> Many thanks for answering soon.
> >> Carsten Becker, Korbach
>
> Cheers,
> Carsten
>
> --
> Eri silvev�ng aibannama padangin.
> Nivaie evaenain eri ming silvoiev�ng caparei.
> - Antoine de Saint-Exup�ry, Le Petit Prince
> -> http://www.beckerscarsten.de/?conlang=ayeri
>
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 19
Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2004 10:45:50 -0400
From: "Mark J. Reed" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Article wierdness
On Sat, Sep 11, 2004 at 10:30:38AM -0400, John Cowan wrote:
> Doug Dee scripsit:
>
> > If I recall my French correctly, the usual way to raise "Raise your
> > hand," is "Levez la main" literally "Raise the hand," even though
> > most of us have two hands, so that perhaps "Raise a hand" would seem
> > more logical.
>
> This is why I keep arguing that the French
/Spanish/Italian/etc
> "definite" article isn't
> really definite any more; it's been bleached of most of its definiteness
> and serves mostly as the default determiner, the one that applies when
> there is no specific reason to use anything else.
>
> English though is notable for its insistence on redundant possessive
> determiners: "He put his hands in his pockets" is the only idiomatic
> way of saying that, even though it's obvious that people normally
> put their own hands in their own pockets.
This entire area is ripe with idiomatic differences. For instance,
the Spanish for "The girls all washed their faces" is literally
"The girls all washed the face". Note the singular, because each girl
has only one face.
-Marcos
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 20
Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2004 11:01:17 -0400
From: John Cowan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Article wierdness
Mark J. Reed scripsit:
> > This is why I keep arguing that the French
>
> /Spanish/Italian/etc
No, I think French is really different here.
--
When I'm stuck in something boring John Cowan
where reading would be impossible or (who loves Asimov too)
rude, I often set up math problems for [EMAIL PROTECTED]
myself and solve them as a way to pass http://www.ccil.org/~cowan
the time. --John Jenkins http://www.reutershealth.com
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 21
Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2004 08:40:15 -0700
From: Philippe Caquant <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Article wierdness
--- John Cowan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> This is why I keep arguing that the French
> "definite" article isn't
> really definite any more; it's been bleached of most
> of its definiteness
> and serves mostly as the default determiner, the one
> that applies when
> there is no specific reason to use anything else.
Mmmmhhh (expressing dubitativeness).
Suppose the incipit of a novel is: "Un chat sauta sur
la table." (A cat jumped onto the table). This makes
the reader already kind of familiar with "the" table,
while "un" chat is something yet unknown, foreign.
The author might have written : "Un chat sauta sur une
table". This would look rather weird for the beginning
of a novel, because the reader looks at both of the
items "cat" and "table" from the outside, he doesn't
feel really concerned. The whole thing seems far away:
somewhere, some cat jumped onto some table. Well, not
very exciting, is it ?
"Le chat sauta sur une table" is hardly better.
Nothing interesting in that table, just some table,
any table. Boring too.
"Le chat sauta sur la table". Ah, in that case, the
reader is thrown right into the story, just like he
already knew both the cat and the table. He just sees
the cat and the table in front of him. A writer would
probably prefer this style, except for special
purposes (choice 1 also could be a possibility).
So the choice between "a" or "the", at least in an
incipit, is something very important; and "the" is
much more marked, and expressive, that "a", in English
like in French, I guess.
> English though is notable for its insistence on
> redundant possessive
> determiners: "He put his hands in his pockets" is
> the only idiomatic
> way of saying that, even though it's obvious that
> people normally
> put their own hands in their own pockets.
I know some exceptions. For ex the Finance Minister.
> I was reading Rickard's _History of the French
> Language_, and it
> struck me forcibly how Old French is essentially
> Modern English with
> Romance words; the word order feels very natural in
> English, and
> even such contrasts as "mange pain" vs. "mange du
> pain" match English
> "eat bread" vs "eat of the bread" exactly; that is,
> the last (which
> is the only form in ModF) is used only when some
> specific bread
> has already been mentioned.
>
??? To me, "mange du pain" just expresses a partitive.
If you say "mange du pain" to a child sitting at a
table, it just means that some bread is supposed to be
around, and that the child is not supposed to eat the
whole of it. No need that bread has be mentioned
before.
> Rickard points out that learning OF requires first
> forgetting ModF;
> in particular, masculine nouns take -s in the
> singular and drop it
> in the plural.
??? I suppose it depends of what noun, and probably
what function inside the sentence (subject, direct or
indirect object). In my edition of "Lancelot du Lac"
(1225), anyway, I see many masculine plurals in -s [or
-z] (and also many singulars, true).
Ex:
"Ha ! sire, fait li vallez [singular], por Deu merci,
mout est ores miauz que ge muire que uns des prisiez
chevaliers [plural] de vostre ostel"
(Ah, Seigneur, dit le valet, pour l'amour de Dieu,
pardonnez-moi. Mieux vaut que je meure plutot que l'un
des chevaliers honore's de votre hotel).
Another sentence:
"Je ne puis estre delivree se par le chevalier
[singular] non que li rois [singular] laisa aler"
(Je ne peux etre delivre'e que par le chevalier que le
roi a laisse' partir)
Anyway, I guess that the language was far from
strictly codified then, and that there were lots of
concurrent dialects.
=====
Philippe Caquant
Barbarus hic ego sum, quia non intellegor illis (Ovidius).
Populus me sibilat, at mihi plaudo (Horatius).
Interdum stultus opportune loquitur (Henry Fielding).
Scire leges non hoc est verba earum tenere, sed vim ac potestatem (Somebody).
Melius est ut scandalum oriatur, quam ut veritas relinquatur (Somebody else).
Ceterum censeo *vi* esse oblitterandum (Me).
_______________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Shop for Back-to-School deals on Yahoo! Shopping.
http://shopping.yahoo.com/backtoschool
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 22
Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2004 17:03:37 +0100
From: Tamas Racsko <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: More orthographic miscellanea (was: Chinese Romanization)
On 10 Sep 2004 John Cowan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> If it were so, the Turks would surely have adopted it in the form
> of s-comma-below rather than s-cedilla.
I think any close distinction between these diacritics is a
relatively new process which was made possible by modern
typesetting facilities*.
E.g. in traditional Czech orthography "hacek" (wedge) was used on
light typefaces and tilde was used on bold ones, i.e. hacek and
tilde were allographs not distinct graphemes. In the middle of the
20th century Rumanian printing-houses were short of a-circumflex,
therefore they began to use i-circumflex instead (with the exeption
of etnomym |Roma^n| and some historic proper names). A-circumflex
was re-introduced again only in 1990's.
Therefore I do not think that Turks adopted either cedilla or
comma-below. They were used "stroke-below" and the stabilization of
its actual form was a later process both in Turk and Romanian (and
in other languages using stroke-below, etc. Latvian).
(* The most modern typesetting facilites tend the merge the two
variants again, Rumanian |s,| in defined as s-cedilla in Latin-2
codesets ISO-8859-2, Win-1250. Cedilla and comma-below are not
distinguished in other specifications, e.g. rfc-1345.)
> Yiddish continued to be written in the Hebrew
The list of resistants can be extended by Lituanian and Latvian.
But this is still a very small list and consists mainly of nations
having long independent cultural and/or western Judeo-Christian
traditions. And even some of these orthographies was "sovietized",
cf. the "phonetical" re-design of Yiddish in 1926, Armanian reform
in 1922.
> > But I believe the pre-1939 Romanized alphabets have been
> > re-established everywhere now.
>
> Sometimes with changes, as in Turkmenistan.
Finno-Ugric languages kept Cyrillic orthography, even Zyrien
which had its own "Abur" script. AFAIK Chuvash uses still Cyrillic.
(And what about Kazakh, Kirghiz? My book does not mention that they
would return to Latin in contrast with Turkmen, Tatar.)
It has to be said, though, the Romanized alphabets are also
Soviet creations in these nations. In case of Turkmens, Latin
script replaced Arab only in 1928 (as many southern Muslim
nations).
-----
On 10 Sep 2004 Ray Brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Yep - the earliest Rumanian text date from the 16th cent IIRC.
It is the letter of boyar |Neac,su| from 1521. Its facsimile is
available online at
<http://www.cimec.ro/Istorie/neacsu/eng/letter.htm>
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 23
Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2004 08:48:00 -0700
From: Arthaey Angosii <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Conlang Flag: Voting
Emaelivpeith Adrian Morgan:
> All feedback gratefully received. Try submitting both valid votes and
> invalid votes, and see if you think the form responds appropriately
> and informatively.
General display-related comments:
1. The giant single-row table is annoying. This is mostly that I
strongly dislike horizontal scrolling anywhere. I would suggest
including only variations of a design on the same row.
2. In the text field section, you refer to the flags by numerals. In
the flag section, you refer to them by letters. Oops? :) It looks like
it's really supposed to be letters, since entering numbers as my
choices is an "invalid identification code."
3. It *might* be a good idea to include a "Comments" text field with
each preference indication, so that we have more opinions to work with
when we get to the second stage of voting on the specific variation of
the winning flag. The downside is that we would have more opinions to
deal with. ;) But for example, I would use this to state that I prefer
flag B to A, but I prefer B-with-gold-line to B-as-is.
4. To lessen the chance of invalid data entry, you could change the
text fields to drop-down menus. To be even slicker, you could remove
all already-voted-for entries from the remaining menus as the user
votes, but that would require JavaScript perhaps? (I'm starting to
code up some JavaScript that would do this. I'll let you know the URL
when I'm done.)
5. As for presentation of the flag graphics themselves, I think the
table should have more cellpadding, so that flags in adjacent cells
don't run into each other. This is especially apparent with flags L,
M, and N.
6. Also WRT the graphics, resizing *all* of the to a standard size
would probably be a good idea, just for fairness of comparison's sake.
Voting script-related comments:
7. If you enter invalid data into the form and submit it, it displays
the errant items in reverse order -- that is, preference 24, then 23,
then 22, etc, with preference 1 at the bottom of the list.
8. You cannot have blank entries between otherwise valid entries. I
don't know how often people would be doing that, but perhaps it might
be common enough that users miss one entry that it would be worthwhile
for you to just ignore all blank entries. (Note that if you do support
blank entries, don't forget that if the next non-blank entry is "equal
in preference" to the "previous" entry, that means the previous
non-blank entry, not "thisEntry - 1".)
Thanks for volunteering to be in charge of the voting! :)
--
AA
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 24
Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2004 11:39:18 -0400
From: Robert B Wilson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Flag: Volunteer needed
On Sat, 11 Sep 2004 17:04:47 +0930 "Adrian Morgan (aka Flesh-eating
Dragon)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> Robert B Wilson wrote:
>
> > 100webspace.com offers free hosting with php 4.3.4... i've been
> using it
> > to host some perl scripts, since i can't use perl on free.fr...
>
> Having created the account and uploaded the relevant files, I can't
> figure out where the hell they are!
>
> If the FTP host is username.freeserverhost.net and the Access Path
> is
> /www/ then surely the URL should be
> http://username.freeserverhost.net/www/nameofpage.php
>
> Where should I be looking?
when you upload the files, you have to upload them to
/www/username.freeserverhost.net/, and then the url should be
http://username.freeserverhost.net/nameofpage.php
--
robert wilson (aka hotaru)
http://www.xanga.com/hotaru_01
http://www.nchan.tk/
http://www.kuvazokad.tk/
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 25
Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2004 18:14:14 +0200
From: PMVA <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Flag: Volunteer needed
Rodlox ta nugatu-r:
>> > http://username.freeserverhost.net/www/nameofpage.php
>> http://username.freeserverhost.net/nameofpage.php
>>
>> http://www.freeserverhost.net/~username/nameofpage.php
> all three of these give "page cannot be found" results.
> sorry.
^__^
Those are template addresses only.
--
/\ P. M. Arktayg pmva[na]avenned.org /\
\/ "rubba s.idqin ka:na ?akd_aba min kid_bin" \/
\/\/ 'cz�sto prawda jest bardziej k�amliwa ni� k�amstwo' \/\/
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links
<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/conlang/
<*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
<*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
------------------------------------------------------------------------
