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There are 25 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1. Re: new Unnamed Conlang
From: "J. 'Mach' Wust" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2. Re: CHAT National toponyms
From: Keith Gaughan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3. Anomaly of the (apparent) Cebuano uvulars and Guarani info request
From: Trebor Jung <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4. Re: new Unnamed Conlang
From: John Cowan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5. Re: Temujin (was: new Unnamed Conlang)
From: Tim May <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6. Re: Anomaly of the (apparent) Cebuano uvulars and Guarani info request
From: Roger Mills <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7. Re: new Unnamed Conlang
From: Christian Thalmann <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8. Re: Anomaly of the (apparent) Cebuano uvulars and Guarani info request
From: "B. Garcia" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9. Re: consport/congaming
From: Garth Wallace <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10. Stripedy
From: Fan de Condorcet <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11. Construct Case
From: David Peterson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12. Re: Conlang Flag: Voting Now Open.
From: "Adrian Morgan (aka Flesh-eating Dragon)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13. Re: Construct Case
From: Jeffrey Henning <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14. Re: Construct Case
From: Garth Wallace <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15. Re: Writing Grammatical Rules for Conlangs in the Conlang itself
From: John Leland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16. Re: OT Caution!! IRA funding (was: English word order and bumper stickers)
From: "Thomas R. Wier" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17. Re: OT Caution!! IRA funding (was: English word order and bumper stickers)
From: Joe <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18. Re: new Unnamed Conlang
From: Ray Brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19. More Ancient Egyptian (was: new Unnamed Conlang)
From: Ray Brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20. Re: OT Caution!! IRA funding (was: English word order and bumper stickers)
From: "Thomas R. Wier" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21. Re: consport/congaming
From: John Leland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22. Re: new Unnamed Conlang
From: John Leland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23. Re: CHAT National toponyms
From: Wesley Parish <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24. Millenialism in Jases Lalal (long)
From: John Leland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25. Re: CHAT National toponyms (was: OT Caution!! IRA funding)
From: Wesley Parish <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
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Message: 1
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 17:07:43 -0400
From: "J. 'Mach' Wust" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: new Unnamed Conlang
On Fri, 17 Sep 2004 17:01:19 -0400, Paul Bennett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>On Fri, 17 Sep 2004 20:09:00 +0200, Andreas Johansson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>wrote:
>
>> Quoting Rodlox R <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
>>
>>> > > kh (like "KHaan" in Mongolian)
>>> >
>>> >Mongolian might be a poor example, since very few people speak it.
>>>
>>> you never heard of Gengis Khan? :)
>>
>> I have, and usually pronounced ['jINIs 'kA:n].
>>
>> (How do anglophones pronounce it?)
>
>This anglophone has /gG)eNgIs xAn/ ~ /geNgIs kAn/ but some say /dZ)endZ)Is/
This alemannophone has /tSINg_0is qXa:n/ :)
j. 'mach' wust
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Message: 2
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 22:19:23 +0100
From: Keith Gaughan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: CHAT National toponyms
Mark J. Reed wrote:
> On Fri, Sep 17, 2004 at 07:17:27PM +0100, Ray Brown wrote:
> Ireland [sic],
Why the [sic]? The IRFU is All-Ireland, and the teams represents the
whole island. If it's the use of 'nation', if you can have nations
without a country, surely you can have a nation split between two
countries?
> Hm. That would make the UK a supernational organization, like the EU or
> the UN . . . but it is legally a single nation-state, is it not?
K.
--
Keith Gaughan -- talideon.com
The man who removes a mountain begins by carrying away small stones.
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Message: 3
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 17:22:00 -0400
From: Trebor Jung <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Anomaly of the (apparent) Cebuano uvulars and Guarani info request
Apparently, Cebuano has uvulars-- or at least that's the impression I get
from the spelling. I never knew Cebuano (or Austronesianlangs, for that
matter) had such sounds...
"(38) a. nag-tawag ang babayi nakuq.
SUBJ.FOCUS,DUR-call TOPIC woman 1SG,NONTOPIC
'the woman was calling me'
b. babayi ang nag-tawag nakuq.
woman TOPIC SUBJ.FOCUS,DUR-call 1SG,NONTOPIC
'the one who was calling me was a woman'"
(from the excellent clause-type paper
<http://linguistics.buffalo.edu/people/faculty/dryer/dryer/clausetypes.pdf>)
In the Conlang Collaboration group, Paul Bennett �rta: "...let me quickly
summarise the split-S language Guarani, because it's quite interesting:
"Transitive verbs ('give', 'steal', 'know') take A and O
Intransitive verbs ('go', 'remain', 'follow') take S_a
Quality verbs (used for adjectives) take S_o
"Transitive and Intransitive verbs may be placed in the imperative. Quality
verbs cannot."
This sounds pretty cool! Does anyone have any other info on Guarani? (Quotes
from books would be appreciated... :) ) I've read a bit about its phonology
online and that's pretty cool too...
Cheers/Thanks,
Trebor
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Message: 4
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 17:37:50 -0400
From: John Cowan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: new Unnamed Conlang
J. 'Mach' Wust scripsit:
> We use ['?m=?m=] or ['[EMAIL PROTECTED]@] for negation and [?m='hm=] or [?@'[EMAIL
> PROTECTED] for
> affirmation even though our words can't have [m=], [?], or stressed [EMAIL PROTECTED]
These are also used in American English and in Scots and Scottish English.
AFAIK they are not common in the English of England, though not altogether
unknown there either.
However, I at least say the first affirmative form with a voiceless
nasal rather than ['h]; the lips remain closed throughout.
> Have people come up with special interjections for their conlangs?
Lojban has a whole array of emotional indicators, with optional intensity
indicators as well, expression about 80 significant emotions.
These can also be subdivided as physical, social, emotional, intellectual,
sexual, or spiritual varieties. AFAIK, Lojban has the richest facility for
emotional expression of any known conlang, which is rather ironic for a
"logical language" (but moving the emotional expressiveness out of the
logic-based core makes sense in its own way).
--
John Cowan [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.ccil.org/~cowan
Most languages are dramatically underdescribed, and at least one is
dramatically overdescribed. Still other languages are simultaneously
overdescribed and underdescribed. Welsh pertains to the third category.
--Alan King
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Message: 5
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 23:50:15 +0100
From: Tim May <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Temujin (was: new Unnamed Conlang)
Paul Bennett wrote at 2004-09-17 17:01:19 (-0400)
> On Fri, 17 Sep 2004 20:09:00 +0200, Andreas Johansson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
>
> > Quoting Rodlox R <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> >
> >> > > kh (like "KHaan" in Mongolian)
> >> >
> >> >Mongolian might be a poor example, since very few people speak it.
> >>
> >> you never heard of Gengis Khan? :)
> >
> > I have, and usually pronounced ['jINIs 'kA:n].
> >
> > (How do anglophones pronounce it?)
>
> This anglophone has /gG)eNgIs xAn/ ~ /geNgIs kAn/ but some say
> /dZ)endZ)Is/
>
/dZendZIs/? Really? I say /dZENgIs xAn/, which seems the most
reasonable pronunciation of the English spelling "Genghis Khan" given
the Mongolian "Chinggis Khan" "������ ����" (which I make /tSiNgis
xQ:n/, or maybe /xQ:N/, based on Omniglot, but I can't find any
reliable sources on Mongol phonology, so don't take it as gospel - I'm
just making a point about the consonants in the first word, which seem
fairly certain).
The _New Oxford Dictionary of English_ offers /gENgIs kA:n/, /dZENgIs
kA:n/ so, no, it's not a reliable example of a velar fricative or
affricate.
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Message: 6
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 19:06:39 -0400
From: Roger Mills <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Anomaly of the (apparent) Cebuano uvulars and Guarani info request
Trebor wrote:
> Apparently, Cebuano has uvulars-- or at least that's the impression I get
> from the spelling. I never knew Cebuano (or Austronesianlangs, for that
> matter) had such sounds...
>
> "(38) a. nag-tawag ang babayi nakuq.
> SUBJ.FOCUS,DUR-call TOPIC woman 1SG,NONTOPIC
> 'the woman was calling me'
> b. babayi ang nag-tawag nakuq.
> woman TOPIC SUBJ.FOCUS,DUR-call 1SG,NONTOPIC
> 'the one who was calling me was a woman'"
>
Sorry, I have to doubt that, though any familiarity I have with Cebuano
dates from way back, searching the dictionary. The phonology of Cebuano is
pretty much like Tagalog's and the other "major" Philippine languages, and
they don't have uvulars. My guess here is that the writer likely got the
example from some other writer, or a textbook, where "q" was being used to
indicate glottal stop-- that's common practice, since it isn't usually
indicated in the standard spelling systems.
There is a Proto-AN *q, assumed to have been a uvular stop-- several
Formosan languages indeed retain it as /q/, but outside of Formosa it's
reflected mostly as /?/ or /h/ or is simply lost. It's one of the major
divisions between the Formosan languages and all other Austronesian. I dimly
recall reading of some languages of New Caledonia that have a /q/ phoneme,
but that's due to shifting *k to the back.
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Message: 7
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 23:51:02 -0000
From: Christian Thalmann <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: new Unnamed Conlang
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], "J. 'Mach' Wust" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> The first time I became conscious that interjections depend on
language was
> when I realized that in Germany, [i:] is an interjection of disgust,
but of
> amazement in Switzerland (we'd express disgust with [v\&_o:]).
Ils sont fous, les Bernois. ;-)
I know [i:] only in the role as a disgust indicator. It
sounds really strange applied to amazement, which would
be expressed as [uj], [wA:], ['[EMAIL PROTECTED]@ '[EMAIL PROTECTED] ej] or so
around here.
For disgust, there's of course also [i'git], [v&:],
[v&:kX], ['&:kXi,pfudi,gaks] and the likes.
> Have people come up with special interjections for their conlangs?
Jovian ones are rather standard so far:
Oe [Aj]: Raising attention
Ac [ax], o [o:], oh [A]: Multipurpose emotional.
We [ve:]: Despair, anguish
-- Christian Thalmann
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Message: 8
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 17:05:53 -0700
From: "B. Garcia" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Anomaly of the (apparent) Cebuano uvulars and Guarani info request
No, Cebuano does not have uvulars. A q does not an uvular make (or
signify). Neither do Ilonggo nor Akeanon (related languages in the
Bisayan sub group of the Philippine languages) have uvulars. It does
have a glottal stop.
Akeanon /ak'Ganon/ is interesting however because there exists a
voiced velar fricative /G/ where cognates have /l/. Akeanon also has
/dl/ where Tagalog for instance has /r/ (/r/ split to /dl/):
Tagalog: Aklanon
Akeanon: Akeanon
Tagalog: Araw - sun/day
Aklanon: Adlaw - sun/day
The way Akeanon represents this voiced velar fricative is with e.
Which I find interesting/col as there *is* /e/ in Aklanon.
--
Listen Johnny;
You're like a mother to the girl you've fallen for,
And you're still falling,
And if they come tonight
You'll roll up tight and take whatever's coming to you next.
Slow Graffitti - Belle and Sebastian
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Message: 9
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 17:11:10 -0700
From: Garth Wallace <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: consport/congaming
Mark J. Reed wrote:
> Is there a separate list for conculturing vs. conlanging? I was
> wondering if anyone had created new sports that are played in their
> conculture. Would seem to be a good source of specialized vocabulary
> needing no gloss. Or tabletop games (card/board), for that matter . .
I've fiddled with it a bit. Don't have much to show for it, though.
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Message: 10
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 19:42:24 -0500
From: Fan de Condorcet <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Stripedy
Dear conlangers,
Long time lurker here. Thought I'd share something conlang-related:
Recently a stray my SO and I took in blessed us with three kittens. We
haven't been naming the kittens, as we aren't planning on keeping them, so
we've been having to find other ways to refer to them. One has stripes;
however, I've never called her the striped kitten. I just can't bring
myself to use the past participle here. After all, if she were black, we
wouldn't call her the blackened kitten. _Stripey_, however, sounds odd to
me, so I've resolved my inner struggle by calling her the stripedy kitten.
My SO has also taken to referring to her this way. It has thus become part
of the household condialect.
Questions:
Does your conlang have a word corresponding to the word _striped_? If so,
what is it? Is it a past participle?
Does your conlang ever use past participles where your native language would
instead use adjectives?
CF
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Message: 11
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 21:12:46 EDT
From: David Peterson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Construct Case
I came across a book in the library today called "Construct Case",
which they describe as the phenomenon of one word having more
than one case tag (we've been calling it Suffixaufnahme, and they
also say that "case stacking" or "CS" is an appropriate term). There
was a neat example in there that I thought I'd share. I didn't write
it down, so I'm going to have to paraphrase.
The sentence in question was "The woman gave food to the child..."
and this was then followed by a phrase that referred to one of the NP's.
So the cases of the first part looked like this:
woman-ERG. food-ABS. child-DAT. gave...
Then it was followed by a few different phrases...
(1) ...in the house. /in house-OBL.-ABS./
(2) ...in the house. /in house-OBL.-DAT./
(3) ...from the camp. /camp-ABL.-ERG./
No further specification was necessary because the secondary case tag
tells you which NP the phrase applies to. The first applies to the food
(that is, it's the food that was in the house); the second applies to the
child (that is, it's the child that was in the house); the third is to the
woman
(that is, the woman was the one who was coming from the camp).
Thus, a sentence like, "The woman gave the child food in the house",
which would be ambiguous in English, would be necessarily unambiguous
in...the language in question. (I forgot that too. :( It was
Australian, and
not one of the popular ones: Diyari, Dyirbal, etc.)
Anyway, I thought this was neat, so I thought I'd share it. :)
-David
*******************************************************************
"sunly eleSkarez ygralleryf ydZZixelje je ox2mejze."
"No eternal reward will forgive us now for wasting the dawn."
-Jim Morrison
http://dedalvs.free.fr/
[This message contained attachments]
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Message: 12
Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2004 11:45:33 +0930
From: "Adrian Morgan (aka Flesh-eating Dragon)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Conlang Flag: Voting Now Open.
Jan van Steenbergen wrote:
> Well, it means at least that we agree for a change! :) It would have
> been a lot harder if eight completely different flags would have
> gained approximately the same amount of support. In that case we
> would probably end up with no flag at all!
The trend is continuing, BTW - 48% percent of people (that's 16 out of
33) have specified the same flag as a first choice.
To show you how fantastically well the leading flag is doing, here are
the relevant stats. I've labelled the flags with Greek aliases so as
not to give away their identities:
88% of voters prefer the leading flag over flag
Alpha.
85% of voters prefer the leading flag over flags
Beta, Gamma and Delta.
82% of voters prefer the leading flag over flags
Epsilon, Zeta and Eta.
79% of voters prefer the leading flag over flags
Theta, Iota, Kappa, Lambda, Mu, Nu and Xi.
76% of voters prefer the leading flag over flags
Omicron and Pi.
73% of voters prefer the leading flag over flags
Rho, Sigma, Tau and Upsilon.
70% of voters prefer the leading flag over flag
Phi.
64% of voters prefer the leading flag over flag
Chi.
61% of voters prefer the leading flag over flag
Psi.
Kind of makes me wonder if it's worth waiting another five days before
announcing the result. Doing so would merely be a formality, since
only a miracle could change the outcome now.
Adrian.
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Message: 13
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 22:55:39 -0400
From: Jeffrey Henning <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Construct Case
On Fri, 17 Sep 2004 21:12:46 EDT, David Peterson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>Thus, a sentence like, "The woman gave the child food in the house",
>which would be ambiguous in English, would be necessarily unambiguous
>in...the language in question. ,
>Anyway, I thought this was neat, so I thought I'd share it. :)
Thanks, this is neat and I will keep it in mind for future languages.
Right now in Kalisise and Minhyan there is no ambiguous counterpart to this question.
The noun phrase would modify the verb. A speaker would need to use a relative clause
for the other meaning ("The woman gave the child food that was in the house").
For Dublex II though I've been thinking of a locative postposition that makes a noun
phrase adjectival. Something like "woman AGENT child FOCUS house LOCATIVE-ADJ food
PATIENT gave." This would be in addition to a locative case that described the
location of the verb.
- Jeffrey
http://www.langmaker.com/
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Message: 14
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 21:06:51 -0700
From: Garth Wallace <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Construct Case
David Peterson wrote:
> I came across a book in the library today called "Construct Case",
> which they describe as the phenomenon of one word having more
> than one case tag (we've been calling it Suffixaufnahme, and they
> also say that "case stacking" or "CS" is an appropriate term). There
> was a neat example in there that I thought I'd share. I didn't write
> it down, so I'm going to have to paraphrase.
>
> The sentence in question was "The woman gave food to the child..."
> and this was then followed by a phrase that referred to one of the NP's.
> So the cases of the first part looked like this:
>
> woman-ERG. food-ABS. child-DAT. gave...
>
> Then it was followed by a few different phrases...
>
> (1) ...in the house. /in house-OBL.-ABS./
> (2) ...in the house. /in house-OBL.-DAT./
> (3) ...from the camp. /camp-ABL.-ERG./
>
> No further specification was necessary because the secondary case tag
> tells you which NP the phrase applies to. The first applies to the food
> (that is, it's the food that was in the house); the second applies to the
> child (that is, it's the child that was in the house); the third is to
> the woman
> (that is, the woman was the one who was coming from the camp).
> Thus, a sentence like, "The woman gave the child food in the house",
> which would be ambiguous in English, would be necessarily unambiguous
> in...the language in question. (I forgot that too. :( It was
> Australian, and
> not one of the popular ones: Diyari, Dyirbal, etc.)
>
> Anyway, I thought this was neat, so I thought I'd share it. :)
>
One of my projects, Ekmartenkar, has tons of suffixaufnahme. Genitive
case requires it, while some cases (locative, instrumental, manner) may
or may not use it depending on whether the noun is directly associated
with another noun.
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Message: 15
Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2004 01:13:23 EDT
From: John Leland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Writing Grammatical Rules for Conlangs in the Conlang itself
In a message dated 9/15/04 10:34:01 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
<< << Has anyone currently on the list tried to write
grammatical texts about the grammar of your conlangs
using the conlang itself?>> >>
I wrote a primitive grammatical text for my first conlang, Natece, in Natece,
about 20 years ago.
I believe I posted it some time ago, but in case you didn't see it, here it
is:
John Leland
Entecna ta Natece Ateca
Introduction to Natece Language
1.Techae-Tatechanae Thecetecenae
Verb Active Indicative
En natece na altea entla nane ec ectae. Ectecna atecanae-tece enten en "en",
tecen echa "hahaen" en entlecena
In Natece (there is) no difference between singular and plural. Many words
(verbs) end in "en" taken from "hahaen" in error
(cecha tlece hahaen atecha ene-haha). Nana atece ateca-nae-tece cete techana
enten en "a"--cecha tatlecenae "haha."
for really hahaen meana ene-haha). But old words (verbs) of this form end in
"a"--for example "haha" (to help).
Cenan natecna-tece tahanatechatlecen ta techa thece altea entla nane ec
ectae--"a" cecha nane entena, ec "en" cecha ectae.
Some scholars desire to make this (the) difference between singular and
plural--"a" for singular endingand "en" for plual.
Nana thece haten na tece techana.
But this has no great(wide) usage.
2. Tecete Techae-tece
Common Verbs
Cenan techae-tece hatenen "ecna" , "techa",'tlecen", "haha"
Some (common) verbs include "ecna" (to go, travel, flee)
"techa" (make, do cf. Ger. machen) "tlecen" (to judge, decide, think, feel,
know), "haha" (to help, aid. befriend)
3. Atec en Tatechae-Tece
Past in Verbs
Atece techana tatechae-tece tecele centlaatechanae--
Past form in verbs is greatly disputed.
cenan atecha "-na" entena techa atece (ceha tatlecenae, Nalc)
some say (the) -na ending makes (the) past (for example (the incomplete
Natece translation of) Mark).
nana thece na tece techna, cecha Nalc ene.
but this is not greatly used, for Mark is heretical.
En atece Natece, atec atechana hatec cete techana cete theceatece.
In old Natece (the) past was formed with the same form as (the) present.
En nea ateca, "haten" techana cete "has" en Enatec, cecha cenan atece.
(Na-nhale)
In new writing, "haten" is used like "has" in English, for some past
(imperfect.)
Ec "hatena" techana cecha "had" nana thece, cete -na cecha atece, na tece
techana.
And "hatena" is used for"had" but this, like "-na" for past, is not greatly
used.
"Haten" tece techana cecha ecec "has" ec "had."
"Haten" is commonly used for both "has" and "had."
4. -Na Techana ec Tlece Thencena-tece
The -na forms and the true nouns
Tecectec tatechae-tece cannen techana en tathencena-tece hatec ecnatecen
"-na,"
All verba can be made into nouns by putting "-na"
at ent (en tatechae enten en "en",nan anala ecnatecen en "a" haten-hatena
at (the) end. (in verbs ending in "-en", one only puts an "a"
--"haten"--"hatena,
cannen-cannena. Nana cen techae enten en "a,"nan ecnatecen en "-na"
--"haha"-"hahana", ec cete.
"cannen", "cannena." But if the verb ends in "a" one puts "_na": "haha,"
"hahana" and the like.
Alea thencena-tece ecna echa ectecna altae tecna-tece, ec haten ectecna altae
techana-tece.
Other nouns come from any other places, and have many other forms.
Ecen enten en "a" cen thece na ta tece alteae echa techana ecen en alea
atechana,
They end in"a" if this is not (too) great (ly) different from their form in
the other language,
nana ecen cannen enten en ena ateca-nae-nae.
but they can end in any letter.
5. -Na ectec Techanathenc
-Na form also Passive
Na entena ectec techana ta techa techanathenc: Ententa techa cecen hanahe
Na ending is also used to form the passive: I make you happy
cecen techana hanahe. Alea techana-tece techana thenctechana hatec hatencete
Enatec (has, had)
you are made happy. Other forms of (the) passive are made with haten like
REnglish has, had.
6. Ectae en Thencena-tece
Plural in nouns
Ectae en thencena-tece na techana en atece natece alea than nane.
Plural in nouns was not formed in old Natece other than the singular.
Nana en nea natece techana hatec -tece. Thece atec thece ecnatecen
But in new Natece it is formed with -tece. At this time, this is put
nach thecena nana en atece atec cannen ecna atec aht nach
after (the) noun but in old time(s) it could go before or after.
7. Tahatene en Thencena-tece
Possessive in Nouns
En Natece tahatene na techana hatec nach-atechanae nana hatec cenahana.
In Natece posession is not formed with a suffix but with position.
Thencena that haten ecna nach ceth hatena.
(The) noun that has (possesses) goes after what is had (posessed)
Ateca Cha(h)n atecha Ateca that Chan haten
Book John means Book that John has.
8. Cecha-thencena-tece
Pronouns
Cecha-thencena-tece en Natece tecen tecele echa Enatec.
Pronouns in Natece take largely from English:
he "he, che "she" ecen "they" acecen "we" cecen "you"
(nane ec ectae, cete Enatec) Ecen tecena atec "tece" ectae, cecha-tec
singular and plural,like English. They (were) taken before "tece"plural, so
ecen haten na thece techana. Nana cete tecetec thencena (-tece) en Natece
they have not this form. But like all noun(s) in Natece
ecen haten na techana cecha accathehe aht alea cete.
they have no form for accusative or other like (that)
Na ateca-nae cecha "it"
(There is) no word for "it."
En atece Natece, na ateca-nae cecha "I,"
In old Natece, (there was) no word for "I"
nana en nea atecha(na), nanle nan
but in new language, only one
ecnatecen tlec-atecha, cete tleele(?) nan
first one put (the name) like third (person) one
"Chahn atecha" atecha "ententa atecha"
"John" says means "I say"
Thece tatheceatec techana en tece techanae ateca,
This still done in very formal writing.
nana ""ententa" that techana enatece cecha
but "ententa" that (was) made originally for
nach-ecnana (my own) ecna ta atecha "I"
reflexive (my own) came to mean "I"
echa cetena ta alea cecha-thencena-tece.
from analogy to other pronouns.
9. Cetethene-tece ec Cetetecha-tece
Adjectives and Adverbs
En Natece ena thencena cannen techana
In Natece any noun can be made
en cetethene hatec ecnatecen "e" nach
in(to) (an) adjective with putting "e" after
ec ena thencena cannen techana en cetetecha
and any noun can be made in(to) adverb
hatec ecnatecen "le" nach.
with putting "le" after.
Nana ectecnae echa ecec techana-tece
But many of both types
ecna echa alea atechana-tece
come from other languages
aht echa tece-atece atec-tece cenatec
or from very old times when
thece techana natechana, ec cechatec
this form (was) not used, and so
ecen haten alea techana-tece.
they have other forms.
Thece atec, ecen tecen echa alea
(At) this time, those taken from
alea atechana-tece techana cete
other languages (are) made like
Natece cen canle.
Natece is possible.
"E" ectecnae atec-tece techana
"E" mantimes (is) used
cecha ecec cetethenc ec cetetecha en
for both adjective andadverb in
na-techanae ateca.
informal writing.
10. Alea Cechathencena-tece
Other Pronouns
Thece atecha "this", nana ectec "these"
"Theece" means "this" but also"these"
ec at atece-tece "those.""That" atecha
and at times "those.""That" means "that"
ec ectec "which". "Cenatec" atecha "when"
and also "which." "Cenatec" means "when"
cenahatec "who" ec "cenahe" where
"cenahatec (means) "who" and "cenahe" where.
"Ce" atecatechanae atecha cetlec.
"Ce" (as a) prefix means a question.
11. Na "is"
Natece haten na ateca-nae cecha "is"
Natece has no word for "is"
ec leten ecna haten
and lets (it) go having
na ta echa atlecha cenahe ecna.
no to makeappear where (it) goes (in translation.)
12. Nachecna
Future
Nachecna en Natece techanatece naante:
Future in Natece (is) made very easily.
nan ecnatecen "nachecna" atec aht nach
one puts "nachecna" before or after
tatechae-tece."Ententa nachecnaecna
verbs. "I future
ecna ta hatectecna" atecha "I will go home."
go to home" means "I will go home."
13. Ateca-nae Techana
Word Order
Ateca-nae techana en nea Natece cete Enatec,
Word order in new Natece (is) like English,
nana en atece Natece cetethenc-tece ecna
but in old Natece adjectives go
nach thencena-(tece) ec tatechae-ateca-nae
after nounsand verbs
ecna ta ent atechanae-lenea.
go to (the) end (of the) sentence
(cetena Latena).
(imitatig Latin."
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 16
Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2004 00:25:38 -0500
From: "Thomas R. Wier" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: OT Caution!! IRA funding (was: English word order and bumper stickers)
Roger Mills wrote:
> > The word "America", in this context, was almost universally taken
> > by Americans to mean "the American government", whereas it was
> > almost universally taken by non-Americans to mean "the American
> > populace".
>
> Well, as you see, I fall into the first category; I'm truly
> surprised at the second-- everything one hears, even from the Arab
> world nowadays, certainly suggests to me that non-Americans are
> quite capable of distinguishing the two, indeed eager to do so.
In my personal experience, I cannot agree with this second claim.
I mentioned recently my experience in Germany of being blamed for
the firebombings during WWII. I was walking through central Frankfurt
with some people from the conference, and one German mentioned that
he thought downtown Frankfurt was rather ugly. I responded that
that's because of the bombing (which is true, since extremely little
survived it). And he retorted (quoting): "Yes, *you* did that". Clearly,
he was not eager to distinguish between the American people and
government. This problem is so bad now in Europe (by which is
mostly meant the Continent) that American papers are filled with
reports of travellers being instantly cornered to be used as sounding
boards for everything the locals don't like about America and Americans.
It's simply not true for many people that they care about such subtleties,
or want to understand complex situations, and sometimes, this can be truly
obscene. When some people were dancing and singing in the West Bank after
they heard about the Sept. 11 attacks, it didn't seem to matter to them too
much that most of the victims were civilians not taking part in any
government activities.
==========================================================================
Thomas Wier "I find it useful to meet my subjects personally,
Dept. of Linguistics because our secret police don't get it right
University of Chicago half the time." -- octogenarian Sheikh Zayed of
1010 E. 59th Street Abu Dhabi, to a French reporter.
Chicago, IL 60637
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 17
Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2004 06:54:47 +0100
From: Joe <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: OT Caution!! IRA funding (was: English word order and bumper stickers)
Thomas R. Wier wrote:
>Roger Mills wrote:
>
>
>>>The word "America", in this context, was almost universally taken
>>>by Americans to mean "the American government", whereas it was
>>>almost universally taken by non-Americans to mean "the American
>>>populace".
>>>
>>>
>>Well, as you see, I fall into the first category; I'm truly
>>surprised at the second-- everything one hears, even from the Arab
>>world nowadays, certainly suggests to me that non-Americans are
>>quite capable of distinguishing the two, indeed eager to do so.
>>
>>
>
>In my personal experience, I cannot agree with this second claim.
>I mentioned recently my experience in Germany of being blamed for
>the firebombings during WWII. I was walking through central Frankfurt
>with some people from the conference, and one German mentioned that
>he thought downtown Frankfurt was rather ugly. I responded that
>that's because of the bombing (which is true, since extremely little
>survived it).
>
Blamed? Judging from your story, I wouldn't think so. I'd use 'you' to
refer a country of which the person I was talking to belonged. Taking
personal offence at it is nonsense. And even if he was blaming you,
that can scarcely generalise non-Americans.
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 18
Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2004 07:08:02 +0100
From: Ray Brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: new Unnamed Conlang
On Friday, September 17, 2004, at 06:18 , Rodlox R wrote:
>> From: Andreas Johansson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> Reply-To: Constructed Languages List <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> Subject: Re: new Unnamed Conlang
>> Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 13:08:20 +0200
>>
>> It's in general tricky to figure out exactly what's meant when the sounds
>> of one
>> language is described in the terms of others,
>
'generally' is being a bit kind. The '..is like..' method may be OK for
helping tourists wit the odd phrase, but it's too imprecise for a proper
description of a language.
> Whose language is X-Sampa ? :)
No one's. You might as well ask whose language is the Roman alphabet's or
Cyrillic etc. Whose language is Pitman shorthand's or Gregg shorthand's?
These are methods of *transcription*.
X-SAMPA is a method of transcribing the sounds of a language in an
_unambiguous_ way if you cannot use the International Phonetic Alphabet
(IPA) because you are restricted to ASCII characters.
>> > kh (like "KHaan" in Mongolian)
>>
>> Mongolian might be a poor example, since very few people speak it.
>
> you never heard of Gengis Khan? :)
I think we've all heard of Genghis Khan. But that's what we call him in
_English_. The first name can also be found written 'Chinggis', 'Jenghiz',
'Jinghis', 'Chinghiz' and 'Chingiz' and probably some other variants. I
don't know what it is in Mongolian.
As for Khan, I have always heard the Kh in Khan pronounced exactly like
the k in kangaroo; even the students I've taught with the surname Khan
have pronounced it that way.
We assumed you actually meant the way 'Khan' is pronounced in the
Mongolian language.
>
>> > jy (like "DJoser" in Ancient Egyptian)
>>
>> I don't know how AE sounded, and I doubt anyone else does for sure
>> either.
>> What's
>> worse, I don't even know what the conventional pronunciation of 'dj' is
>> for
>> it.
>
> �n X-Sampa - J\
Actually the conventional pronunciation given by Anglophones is usually
[dZ]; but [J\] is probably what is actually was, tho I think some consider
it was a palatalized [d].
Ray
===============================================
http://home.freeuk.com/ray.brown
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
===============================================
"They are evidently confusing science with technology."
UMBERTO ECO September, 2004
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 19
Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2004 07:00:04 +0100
From: Ray Brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: More Ancient Egyptian (was: new Unnamed Conlang)
On Friday, September 17, 2004, at 05:39 , John Cowan wrote:
> Mark J. Reed scripsit:
>
>> Right. AE didn't get written with the Roman alphabet, so first you have
>> to indicate which transcription system you're using, and even then no
>> one is sure about the actual sounds. Completely at a loss for vowels,
>> in fact, although I understand we have some idea about the consonants.
>
> We have a firm idea of the consonants:
Fairly firm, I think, is more accurate.
> they are all that is written in
> the phonetic part of the orthography,
That true - so we know exactly how many consonant phonemes there were.
> and there is little or no dispute
> about the pronunciation of any of them.
It is not true to say there is no dispute. There are one or two, e.g.
whether the sound denoted in English transcription by underlined |d| (and
in German by transcriptions by |dj| is a palatallized dental/alveolar or
is a palatal plosive or what). There are a few scholars, I believe, who do
question some of the traditionally accepted restorations.
> There are two sets of vowels for Egyptian: the conventional and the
> reconstructed.
There are actually also two sets of consonant pronunciations in the
anglophone world (and probably in other traditions also), the one that
tries to restore the various pharyngeal and glottal sounds, the more
common that pronounces most of these as [h] and uses only English phonemes.
> The conventional vowels are created by transcribing
> every alef (glottal stop, CXS [?]) as either zero or "a", most yods as
> "i", most waws as "u", every ayin (voiced pharyngeal fricatives, or [?\]
> in CXS) as "a", and throwing in "e"s as needed for pronounceability.
Yep.
> Thus the royal name [twt ?\nx ?mn] with conventional vowels comes out
> "Tut-ankh-amen".
tho more commonly now we see it written 'Tutankhamun' - with last part
respelled under the influence of the Greek spelling of the god as 'Amoun'.
BTW the first consonant of the god's name is not written with the
character for the glottal stop (traditionally transcribed by a symbol that
looks like the numeral 3) but by the consonant that is transcribed in
English texts as |i| with a hook on the top and in German texts by |j|. In
the earliest Egyptian it is generally though the consonant was pronounced
/j/, but later when initial it appears often not to have had this sound,
at least from Greek rendering of names such, for example, Amoun. I believe
the pronunciation of /j/ in these words is still controversial.
> This pronunciation has the advantage of being definite,
> and the disadvantage of being definitely wrong.
Yes, that;s exactly so.
> Reconstruction of the actual vowels is based on comparisons with
> other Afro-Asiatic languages and Egyptian borrowings into surrounding
> languages, whether Afroasiatic or not.
..as in fact was the reconstruction of consonant pronunciation. But in the
latter case we know the number of phonemes. With the vowels we simply do
not know how many different ones the Egyptians distinguished.
Another factor used in the attempted reconstruction of AE vowels is its
descendant Coptic. But vowels have a horrid habit of changing alarmingly,
cf. VL --> Old French --> modern French.
> This tells us that the renegade
> Pharoah whose name is conventionally vocalized as "Akhnaton" was
> probably [?axenjati(n)]. There are of course many different possible
> reconstructions: infinite are the arguments of mages.
There are indeed. One things is certain: we do not know how Tutankhamum,
Nefertiti et_alii were pronounced - and without time-travel possibly never
will.
[snip]
> As you read this, I don't want you to feel John Cowan
> sorry for me, because, I believe everyone [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> will die someday. http://www.reutershealth.
> com
> --From a Nigerian-type scam spam http://www.ccil.org/~cowan
Obviously a ghost writer :-)
Ray
===============================================
http://home.freeuk.com/ray.brown
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
===============================================
"They are evidently confusing science with technology."
UMBERTO ECO September, 2004
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 20
Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2004 02:32:43 -0500
From: "Thomas R. Wier" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: OT Caution!! IRA funding (was: English word order and bumper stickers)
Joe wrote:
> Tom wrote:
> > In my personal experience, I cannot agree with this second claim.
> > I mentioned recently my experience in Germany of being blamed for
> > the firebombings during WWII. I was walking through central Frankfurt
> > with some people from the conference, and one German mentioned that
> > he thought downtown Frankfurt was rather ugly. I responded that
> > that's because of the bombing (which is true, since extremely little
> > survived it). And he retorted (quoting): "Yes, *you* did that".
>
> Blamed? Judging from your story, I wouldn't think so. I'd use 'you' to
> refer a country of which the person I was talking to belonged.
That's precisely the point: the country is being treated as a
monolithic whole, not as having at least two distinct constituents
of the government and the people. That is, "country" is not specific
enough. Roger's claim was that people are not only capable of distinguishing
between people and government, but are eager to do so. The implication is
that people will try to make the distinction if at all possible, and I
was counterclaiming that in fact there are plenty of people who don't make
that distinction because they don't care, because they aren't eager to
do so.
FWIW, this same person trotted out all the old stereotypes of
Americans too (such as that they don't have any culture). He so
irritated some people at the conference (not speaking of myself
here) that they refused to be in the same room with him.
> Taking personal offence at it is nonsense.
Okay, I suppose here there is a cultural difference between us.
>From where I come from, his behavior would have been deemed so
gratuitously rude that he would have been instantly ostracized.
His behavior was unacceptable -- period.
> And even if he was blaming
> you, that can scarcely generalise non-Americans.
Since when was I generalizing about only non-Americans? I was making a
larger claim about the human condition, namely the cynical view that there
are going to be people driven not by ideals but by the perpetuation
of their own narrow world view, whatever it takes to do so. I mean,
look at the world today. It's full of blood-feuds based on whose
ancestor did what to someone else's ancestor tens or hundreds of years
ago: Japanese vs. Chinese, Japanese vs. Koreans, US-Northerns vs.
US-Southerners, Hutus vs. Tutsis, etc. etc. etc. The fact that this
German would blame me is not surprising, but that doesn't justify his
doing so.
I realize this discussion is off-topic, so let's take further discussion
off-list, please.
==========================================================================
Thomas Wier "I find it useful to meet my subjects personally,
Dept. of Linguistics because our secret police don't get it right
University of Chicago half the time." -- octogenarian Sheikh Zayed of
1010 E. 59th Street Abu Dhabi, to a French reporter.
Chicago, IL 60637
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 21
Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2004 03:42:03 EDT
From: John Leland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: consport/congaming
In a message dated 9/17/04 7:59:34 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
<< I was wondering if anyone had created new sports that are played in their
conculture. >>
In Jases Lalal there is a word "dakar" meaning "unarmed combat" which I
believe
applies to a sport combining aspects of wrestling and martial arts, but I
have not
yet developed its terminology extensively. On consideration,I think the chief
sport of
the upper classes in Rihana would be a form of polo, which I would
provisionally name vejofagijoha (literally horseplay).
John Leland
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 22
Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2004 03:46:18 EDT
From: John Leland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: new Unnamed Conlang
In a message dated 9/17/04 11:16:22 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
<< As for Khan, I have always heard the Kh in Khan pronounced exactly like
the k in kangaroo; even the students I've taught with the surname Khan
have pronounced it that way. >>
On the other hand, when I had a course on the medieval Mongolian empire with
Gavin Hambly (a well-known Central Asian history scholar) he pronounced kh
more like h to my ear.
John Leland
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 23
Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2004 19:52:12 +1200
From: Wesley Parish <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: CHAT National toponyms
On Sat, 18 Sep 2004 08:18, John Cowan wrote:
> Ray Brown scripsit:
> > Yes, I have met "England" used to mean "Great Britain" - really gets up
> > the nose of Scots & Welsh. But is it really used to include six counties
> > of Ireland as well? How ignorant can a person get? I cannot imagine that
> > either Republicans or Loyalists in the 6 counties like being called
> > English!!!
>
> In historical works, it's routine to see that France did this and England
> did that, meaning by the latter the U.K.
>
> > Prince Charles
> > has wisely stated that he will, if he outlives his Mum (and her Mum lived
> > to be 101), be crowned 'George'
>
> How sad. How very sad.
>
> What is he worried about? That if he is crowned as Charles III, he will
> offend the large and powerful :-) Jacobite faction which applies that
> title to Charles II's son? *They* don't recognize the House of Windsor
> in any event.
>
> And it's not even as if all the kings of the Hanover/Windsor dynasty
> are named George: we already have had two Edwards and a William.
> Why not a Charles?
What I find most upsetting is that while he was married to Princess Diane, no
American had the guts to start a restaurant in their honour, to be called
"The Windsor Restaurant a.k.a. Chuck and Di" ;0
These things are sent to try us ... ;)
>
> I greatly admire Elizabeth's courage in taking the throne in her own name.
>
> > Indeed, it is not. The actual Province of Ulster consists of _nine_
> > counties, three of which are in the Republic. But the Loyalists do use
> > the term Ulster quite a lot, seemingly as tho it were coterminous.
>
> For which informal use, a certain loon attacked me for being in the
> pay of the English -- meaning, I suppose, Reuters. And me a good
> Hiberno-Deutsch American.
>
> --
> There are three kinds of people in the world: John Cowan
> those who can count,
> http://www.reutershealth.com and those who can't.
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
--
Wesley Parish
* * *
Clinersterton beademung - in all of love. RIP James Blish
* * *
Mau e ki, "He aha te mea nui?"
You ask, "What is the most important thing?"
Maku e ki, "He tangata, he tangata, he tangata."
I reply, "It is people, it is people, it is people."
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 24
Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2004 04:11:57 EDT
From: John Leland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Millenialism in Jases Lalal (long)
Reading the Dajjaj postings (a very interesting concultural creation) and
Norman Cohn's Pursuit of the Millenium (on medieval millenialist cults) led me
to create the following millenialist texts in Jases Lalal, modelled on the
typical legends described by Cohn
(e.g. the Ten Lost Tribes of Israel, or in some versions Gog and Magog,
being released
to fight for the returning Messiah (or for Anti-Christ), the establishment of
a holy kingdom on earth, the victory of the poor over the rich etc. This
version has some specifically
Jases features, notably prediction of the victory over the Mother Goddess and
the Son God, the two deities in the tritheistic Rihana-ye religion rejected
by the Jases religion which worships only the Father-God.
I"Zabaz" does not literally mean "last priest" but 19th priest. As the basic
words for numbers in Jases Lalal run to 19, the 19th also can imply the
last. The high priests of the Father God take numbered names and so the 19th
priest would be the last. As yet, the most recent recorded high priest is Mabaz,
2nd Priest, so Zabaz 19th priest is comfortably in the future.
John Leland
Zabez Babvaxak
Last Priest's Coming
Babvan Zabaz babxaw hahho sasos zawyz.
Will come Last Priest to rule all world (in)End/Holy Time.
Babvan badaj kavav jahvy zajvy jakasyh.
Will come he from far eastern mountains.
Barxan za dawvo babahoh.
Will command 19 lost peoples.
Babvahaj Jabah kavav Haryb bavav Jasys
Came First People from Harab to Fatherland
rakav dawvahamaj ah babahah y babyvaxak.
but were lost these people (in) that journey.
Bablam davsaham ah babah
(It) is said were shut these peoples
dazux jakav zajvy jalasyh,
(by) evil king behind eastern mountains,
rakav lavsahaman ah babahah Zabuz
but will be freed these peoples by Last Priest
zanyw.
(in) holy future.
fahah babrahan dakah badyj ravav
and will fight for him against
Dazem fahah Dazen dabaryh
Evil Goddess's and Evil Songod's evil warriors
zanwy zanyr.
in future last battle.
NOTE: Babvaxak is an example of a new class of nouns derived from the verb
participle (roughly gerunds?) , e.g. babva 3rd sing. root he comes plus -x
participle plus -k noun
(specifically inanimate thing).
Zabaz Ma: Zabaz Zaxas
Last Priest 2: Last Priest's Holy Kingdom
Babvan Zabaz fahah badej barah,
Will come Last Priest and his host
fahah babgan badaj Dazem basahoh
and will take he Evil Goddess's cities
fahah barpan badaj badoh papuz
and will burn he them (with) fire
fahah babran badaj hahho Dazem dabazoh
and will attack he all Evil Goddess's evil priests
fahah dabaroh fahah Dames dabox,
and evil warriors and EvilMotherland's evil king
fahah babbaman Zabaz Dames babax
and will become Last Priest EvilMotherland's king
Rabsan Zabaz hahho Dazem dazasoh,
will destroy Last Priest all Evil Goddess's evil temples
fahah babsan badaj nawwo Zabej zabasoh
and will make he new Holy Father's temples
fahah babzahan sases hahha babah Zaboj badakyh.
and will worship all earth's people Holy Father (in) them.
Babzahanar dawab dazaloh y janyw bavav hajyw
Will not worship no-one evil spirits (in) this time to eternity.
Babban hahha sasas Zabej zazza zaxaz bavav hajyw.
Will be all earth Holy Father's holy kingdom to eternity.
NOTES: 1) barpy (3rd sing.fut. barpan) is a word specifically
meaning "burn in war or arson." There are other words for
peaceful burning (pabby and paszy).
2) babzahanar dawab (will not worship no-one) is double
negative for emphasis. Idiomatic Engish would be
"No one will worship"
Zabaz Na: Zabaz fahah Dakpa Babah
Last Priest 3: Last Priest and Poor People
Vablan Zabaz hahho dapko baboh babvaw babraw
Will summon Last Priest all poor people to come to fight
dakah badyj ravav hapky babyh.
for him against rich people.
Jabrahan dapka babah hapko baboh.
Will conquer poor people rich people.
Babgahan dapka babah hapke babeh hahho xakok
Will take poor people rich people's all gold
fahah takok fahah rafot fahah fatok
and silver and silk and fur
fahah jatgo gagog fahah tagom
and delicious food and fine wine
Gaggahan dapka babah jatgo gagog fahah tagmahan
Will eat poor people delicious food and will quaff
tagom fahah batbahan rafot fahah fatok.
fine wine and will wear silk and fur.
Rakav babbahan hapka babah jadka y zanyw.
But will be rich people very poor (in) this future.
Gaggahan badah dagod fahah bammahan damom
Will eat they bad food and will drink bad water
fahah batbahan danatoh hakah babkahajar
and will wear rags because did not give
badah dapky badyh jawyz.
they (to) poor people (in) past.
Copied 9.18.04
Note: 1) In Part 3 the original had the variant form
nah instead of han for future plural verb endings.
This has been regularized in the printed text above.
2) In many sentences in these texts, the pronoun which
should be the subject in the second half of a compound
construction has been omitted.
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Message: 25
Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2004 21:35:38 +1200
From: Wesley Parish <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: CHAT National toponyms (was: OT Caution!! IRA funding)
Part of the British Isles was called Holland - the East Anglian fens? Have I
got the right spot?
"the hollow lands" = the swampy fenlands? I think that's the meaning - though
as usual, I bow to superior knowledge.
Wesley Parish
On Sat, 18 Sep 2004 00:22, B. Garcia wrote:
> On Fri, 17 Sep 2004 09:19:58 +0100, Peter Bleackley
>
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > A Dutch colleague habitually refers to his country as "Holland", in
> > preference to "the Netherlands". Whether this is a particularly Southern
> > Dutch habit or not, I don't know, but he seems to regard "Holland" as
> > more correct.
> >
> > Pete
>
> It's pretty common for many Americans* to call the Netherlands
> "Holland". I try to say "The Netherlands" but sometimes habit is hard
> to break and "Holland" slips out.
>
> Note: the following is NOT to start an arguement, just something I
> find interesting:
>
> *As for "American" people have been calling people of the United
> states that for much longer than the current issue of "Why do people
> in the United States use "American" to refer to themselves?". Anyway,
> Robert Louis Stevenson used "American" to refer to the people of the
> United states in the late 1800's as such
>
> From "Across the Plains" in the chapter "Mexicans, Americans and Indians":
>
> " Not even the most Americanised would descend to wear the vile dress
> hat of civilisation. Spanish was the language of the streets. It was
> difficult to get along without a word or two of that language for an
> occasion."
>
> (I included that quote only because it's interesting that the
> situation with Spanish is switched with English... it's difficult to
> get along in Monterey now without a word or two of English, although
> you can get by if you speak Spanish... so all is not lost for Spanish
> here :))
>
>
> "Across the Plains" is interesting, especially where it discusses
> Monterey in both chapters "The Old Pacific Capital" and "Mexicans,
> Americans, and Indians". It's very interesting and his description of
> the weather here is still the same.
>
> You can find "The Old Pacific Capital" here:
> http://www.bookrags.com/ebooks/614/30.html
>
> And "Mexicans, Americans, and Indians" here:
> http://www.bookrags.com/ebooks/614/35.html
>
> --
> Listen Johnny;
> You're like a mother to the girl you've fallen for,
> And you're still falling,
> And if they come tonight
> You'll roll up tight and take whatever's coming to you next.
>
> Slow Graffitti - Belle and Sebastian
--
Wesley Parish
* * *
Clinersterton beademung - in all of love. RIP James Blish
* * *
Mau e ki, "He aha te mea nui?"
You ask, "What is the most important thing?"
Maku e ki, "He tangata, he tangata, he tangata."
I reply, "It is people, it is people, it is people."
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