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There are 25 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1. Re: Replying to Rodlox (Re: Spanish-related question ((q)SVO ?) and
obliques)
From: Roger Mills <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2. Re: The etymology of (King) Arthur (was Re: CHAT: reign names)
From: Ray Brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3. Re: Number/Specificality/Archetypes in Language
From: Ray Brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4. Re: 4D conlang [Was: Re: I'm back!]
From: Joe <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5. Re: Inventing names
From: Michael Potter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6. Interesting thread on Ideolengua...
From: Roger Mills <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7. Re: Inventing names
From: Michael Poxon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8. Re: Spanish-related question ((q)SVO ?)
From: "B. Garcia" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9. Re: English sounds `v' and `w'
From: �ukasz Korczewski <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10. Re: Inventing names
From: �ukasz Korczewski <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11. Re: obliques?
From: Trebor Jung <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12. Re: Interesting thread on Ideolengua...
From: Mike Ellis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13. Conlang Flag: Results Are In!
From: "Adrian Morgan (aka Flesh-eating Dragon)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14. Re: Conlang Flag: Results Are In!
From: "H. S. Teoh" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15. Re: Conlang Flag: Results Are In!
From: Arthaey Angosii <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16. Re: Conlang Flag: Results Are In!
From: David Peterson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17. Re: English sounds `v' and `w'
From: Ray Brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18. Re: Inventing names
From: Andreas Johansson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19. Re: Basque Gender Marking (was Re: Further language development Q's)
From: Tamas Racsko <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20. Re: The etymology of (King) Arthur (was Re: CHAT: reign names)
From: Andreas Johansson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21. Re: Inventing names
From: Andreas Johansson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22. Re: Conlang Flag: Results Are In!
From: Arthaey Angosii <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23. Re: Conlang Flag: Results Are In!
From: "Adrian Morgan (aka Flesh-eating Dragon)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24. Re: Inventing names
From: BP Jonsson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25. Re: Conlang Flag: Results Are In!
From: taliesin the storyteller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
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Message: 1
Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 14:10:16 -0400
From: Roger Mills <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Replying to Rodlox (Re: Spanish-related question ((q)SVO ?) and
obliques)
David Peterson wrote:
> "A hot dog was eaten (by me)."
>
> ...only "a hot dog" is a core argument. "By me" is now considered
> an oblique--that is, it is *not* a core argument of the verb. In
> English, it isn't even necessary (a clue for whether or not something
> is an oblique in English). Obliques work differently in different
> languages, but they tend to not be core arguments of the verb, and
> tend to be marked differently than other arguments (for example,
> core arguments of English verbs tend not to be marked, whereas
> the oblique must always be preposed by "by").
I think as a general rule, nom. and acc. are considered the "core" cases,
all others are considered "oblique".
>
> Rodlox also wrote:
>
> <<minor question - what are 'GB' and 'WH' ?>>
>
> GB stands for Government and Binding--a syntactic framework I
> was taught recently. This fact isn't worth remembering.
Thanks, I wondered about that, too.
> So, in Arabic, for example,
> you have "maa" meaning "what" and "man" meaning "who", and those are
> WH-words. All yes/no questions, though, begin with the particle "hal"
> (similar
> to your "que"). So, an example:
>
> hal tatakalam al-?/arabiija?
> /Q you-speak Arabic/
> "Do you speak Arabic?"
>
> "hal" above, like "que", just lets the speaker know that the phrase is
> a question.
Does "hal" mean anything else in its own right, or is this just a
coincidental homophone? It occurs (borrowed I'm sure) in Malay/Indonesian,
meaning "case, instance, (indefinite) thing, affair"-- e.g. pada hal itu 'in
that case', hal ini berat sekali 'this matter is very serious' etc.
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Message: 2
Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 20:23:59 +0100
From: Ray Brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: The etymology of (King) Arthur (was Re: CHAT: reign names)
On Monday, September 20, 2004, at 02:44 , Paul Bennett wrote:
> On Mon, 20 Sep 2004 07:43:52 +0100, Ray Brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
[snip]
>> No. There is no evidence that there was ever a historic 'King Arthur' of
>> anywhere. If the Arthur of legend has any basis in reality, then 'Arthur'
>> was probably a Romano-British leader (presumably called Arctorius)
>> holding
>> out against Saxon encroachment after the legions had withdrawn from
>> Britain.
>
> I understand that while Arthur is a composite, there was a Romano-Britsh
> leader (originally a Cavalry commander), with a bear as his standard.
Excellent - that would support my Arcto:rius :-)
[snip]
> refered to in), but it has been a while since I saw the documentary. The
> name "Arth Ur" was posited during that documentary as plausibly combining
> the Celtic and Latin words for "bear",
Was it? But _arth_ is modern Welsh, not Old British (Brittonic). And why
should Latin _ursus_ just finish up as _ur_? What has happened to that
first /s/?
Nor am I aware of any other examples of names which are Brittono-Latin
hybrids. If indeed the name was such a hybrid it would have been *artursus
or, with a Brittonic case ending, *artursos. Unfortnately, I don't have
the data to hand, but would a medial /t/ have become /T/?
===========================================================
On Tuesday, September 21, 2004, at 12:32 , John Cowan wrote:
> Wesley Parish scripsit:
>
>> Future generations of historians will say there was an Anglo-German
>> Queen with the Corgi as her standard,
_Anglo_? On her dad's side she was of the family Saxe-Coburg-Gotha (fairly
Germanic sounding!). The family name was changed to 'Windsor' in 1917 in
deference to the anti-German feeling rife in Britain at the time. But her
mum, Elizabeth Bowes-Lyon, was daughter of the 14th Earl of Strathmore, i.
e. she was _Scots_.
A Scoto-German Queen with a Welsh dog ( in Welsh _corgi_ = 'dwarf-dog')...
..
>> and they will go slowly mad trying to connect her and the corgis -
...or is the plural really 'corgwn' ;)
>> the sacred animal of the British Isles,
>> apparently - with the English Lion and the Welsh Dragon.
And don't forget that Sottish Lyon!
>> Perhaps some
>> of them will connect the British Throne with the creature known in
>> its Australian Commonwealth as the Drongo, and argue that "Dragon"
>> is a misspelling. :-)
You mean it isn't!!
[snip]
>> (I don't propose to precede them into madness. ;)
Nor I.
> "To many, perhaps to most people outside the small company of the
> great scholars, past and present, 'Celtic' of any sort is, nonetheless,
> a magic bag, into which anything may be put, and out of which almost
> anything may come.
[Most of excellent quote snipped]
> into Avernus. Anything is possible in the fabulous Celtic twilight,
> which is not so much a twilight of the gods as of the reason."
> --JRRT, "English and Welsh"
>
Amen!
I still find it noteworthy that no ancient author ever referred to the
inhabitants of Britain or Ireland as Celts, yet they knew Celts on the
continent. The name was not applied to the pre-Germanic inhabitants of
these islands until the 18th century, when it was seized upon by the
Romantics.
Far too many assumptions are made IMHO about early Britain. The Welsh for
Britain is _Prydain_ (<-- *Pritani); the Welsh _Prydyn_ (= Picts) and the
Old Irish _Cruithin/ Cruithni_ (=Picts) must derive from *k_writeni. Among
Ancient Greek writers we also come across _Prettanoi_ (note the geminate
/tt/), but the most common form used among the Greeks was _Brettanoi_. The
Romans hadn't much to say about these islands until Gaius J. Caesar paid
it a couple of visits. He referred to the inhabitants as _Britanni_ (no
geminate /t/, but this time geminate /nn/) which remained the standard
Latin form. But we also come across _Brittones_ (sing. _Britto_); and from
_brittonica_ [fem. adj.] comes the modern Welsh word _Brythoneg_ (= (Old)
British [language]), the Breton _Brezhonek_ (= (modern) Breton [language])
and our own Brithenig ;)
But it seems blithely assumed that the *Pritani, *K_writeni, Britanni &
Brittones are all one and the same, despite linguistic difficulties and,
of course, that they were all 'Celts' despite the lack of any ancient
literary evidence or any archaeological evidence of the famous 'Celtic
invasion'. Indeed, Tacitus' description of Britain that he gave in the
"Agricola" (nothing to do with farming; it's a biography of his
father-in-law Agricola who was one-time governor of Roman Britain)
suggests strongly that the inhabitant were quite diverse.
Ray
===============================================
http://home.freeuk.com/ray.brown
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
===============================================
"They are evidently confusing science with technology."
UMBERTO ECO September, 2004
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Message: 3
Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 20:23:53 +0100
From: Ray Brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Number/Specificality/Archetypes in Language
On Tuesday, September 21, 2004, at 09:32 , Philippe Caquant wrote:
> --- Ray Brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
[snip]
>> So a male elephant partakes in the Archetypes of
>> Maleness & Elephanthood
>> (among other things).
>
> Ah, but that's quite interesting, since I had the same
> idea ! (only I didn't know it was an archetype).
As I've said, it depends how one defines "archetype". I was talking in
Platonic terms. Certainly to Plato, Maleness & Elephanthood are 'Forms'
that have greater reality than any individual elephant that shares in
these archetypal Forms.
[snip]
>>>> - there is a difference between "the set of all
>> men"
>>>> and "the characteristics common to all men".
>>
>> In modern programming terms, the first is the set of
>> all instances or
>> _objects_; the second is presumasbly the _class_
>> definition.
>
> Yes, looks like that; yet I was very pleased to
> discover that in JavaScript, the properties of an
> object belonging to a class can be in contradiction
> with the general class properties (the prototype ones,
> if I got it right). As I understood it, if you refer
> to an object's property, Javascript will first look
> for an explicit property at the very object level; if
> it doesn't find it there, it will look for it at the
> prototype level;
Yes, yes - and classes may be sub-classes of others.
JavaScript has merely taken these ideas over from Java & they've been
around in object-oriented programming (OOP) for a few decades.
But do understand that my analogy to OOP was not intended to relate to the
Platonic ideas. I was using a different analogy to show that there are
different ways of looking at these things. Taking different points of view
can of course be confusing but it can also stimulate further thought.
The only similarity between Plato's ideas & that of OOP is that just as we
can have hierarchies of classes so it is clear that there was a hierarchy
of Forms/Archetypes. But there important differences.
In OOP the class definition is an _abstract_ definition, this applies both
to superclasses and subclasses. Objects are the actual instantiations of
such classes. In Plato's thinking the Forms are not abstract; they not
only have a transcendent existence, they are more real than anything we
see in the physical material world.
Also an important difference IMO is that Plato's Forms are static, but OOP
classes not only have static attributes but also have _methods_, i.e. are
dynamic. This is important difference between old-fashioned 'records' and
the newer 'objects'. It is also, i think, an important difference between
OOP classes & Platonic Forms.
> In the
>> Platonic sense, nothing _belongs_ to an Archetype.
>> The things of this
>> world (which to Plato were less than real - shadows
>> of shadows)
>> 'participate' in or share in an Archetype and,
>> indeed, will share in more
>> than one Archetype.
>
> So they inherit properties from different archetypes ?
Yes, but do not think Plato would see it that way at all. Objects inherit
methods & attributes of the class of which they are instantiations. But
humans, elephants, tables, computers, trees, etc., etc. are not for Plato
instantiations. But. i admit, it is not entirely clear how he saw
_metekein_ working.
> The set of
>> Americans that walked
>> on the moon has two members only.
>
> I'm afraid there are some more. Actually, they went
> back to Moon after Apollo 11. They probably had
> forgotten something there.
Unless, like my grandmother - dead for many a year now -you believe no
Americans ever went near the moon and the whole thin was acted out in some
TV studio or film set ;)
Ray
===============================================
http://home.freeuk.com/ray.brown
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
===============================================
"They are evidently confusing science with technology."
UMBERTO ECO September, 2004
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Message: 4
Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 20:56:39 +0100
From: Joe <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: 4D conlang [Was: Re: I'm back!]
H. S. Teoh wrote:
>On Tue, Sep 21, 2004 at 10:04:06PM -0400, Mark J. Reed wrote:
>
>
>>On Tue, Sep 21, 2004 at 03:13:15PM -0700, H. S. Teoh wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Considering that a 4D being would necessarily see in 3D (i.e., have a
>>>3D retina), this seems to lead me to just 4 pairs of directions:
>>>
>>>
>>Exactly so.
>>
>>
>>
>>>up/down, left/right, front/back, "in"/"out" (or whatever you call
>>>it... this is different from being actually "inside" or "outside" a 4D
>>>volume).
>>>
>>>
>>The terms I've most often heard for the extra two directions along the extra
>>spatial dimension in fourspace are "ana" and "cata" - presumably the same
>>as the prefixes in e.g. anaphoric and cataphoric.
>>
>>
>
>I've seen it referred to as ana/kata or vinn/vout (Rucker).
>Personally, I prefer "in" and "out" because it corresponds with what
>you see in the 3D retina of a 4D person when the 4D person moves in
>those directions. Of course, objectively speaking this is a bit silly,
>since it's like telling a 2D person we're moving "inwards" when we
>move forward in the 3rd direction, just because the image in our 2D
>retina expands as we do so. But we don't have the benefit of having
>native 4D terminology, so I chose the more suggestive terms over the
>more abstract ones.
>
>
I don't know if a 3D retina is neccesary. It would be to see more than
a limited number of sides/cells, but a 2D retina can see a 4D object in
3D space.
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Message: 5
Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 16:05:52 -0400
From: Michael Potter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Inventing names
Carsten Becker wrote:
> Manisu! [ Be greeted!
Idile! (Good day!)
> Sira ilt�yang nelnoin vaena! [ I need your help!
Vraz'r axil! (I hope I can help you!)
>
> Before I'm starting to work on a conworld I need names, I
> thought & decided. But how to come up with names? Shall I
> just make up (at least for now) random, meaningless names,
> or should I make up typical words that can appear in names
> (e.g. animals' names, gods' names, war, battle, rich, poor,
> nice, good, bad etc.)? Or shoudl I even mix both?! The
> problem with descriptive names, such as "Stormcloud" is
> that they're mostly at least trisyllabic and that way don't
> fit what I'm used to -- European names are rather short,
> only one or two syllables mostly. OTOH, when you're looking
> at Indian or generally SE-Asian names, three syllables are
> very short!
> Then there are the place names .. The same problem, the same
> question ... But descriptinve names are IMO normal, and
> many place names are polysyllabic, so this shouldn't be a
> that big problem. At last I could force my self to call the
> biggest ocean of the map of my conworld I've drawn some
> time ago "Rad�m Anana", which is Dal�ian for "The big
> ocean" (Ocean big.3sg), Ayeri would be sth like "Caron
> Nuc�rya" (Sea AGT.big).
>
I had the same problem a few months ago. The first thing I did was learn
what some of the names used in _our_ world mean. For example: according
to www.behindthename.com (the first site I found) Michael comes from the
Hebrew _Miyka'el_ meaning "who is like God?". Carsten (or Karsten) is
listed as a Low German form of Christian, which has a rather obvious
meaning.
I translated some of these names into Suvile, according to their
etymologies. Michael would be in Suvile |Athlibon|, meaning the same
thing, and so on. Most "classical" names are similarly translated, since
languages usually have words for animals, flowers and gods. Also, a lot
of names are various terms for "beautiful", "manly", etc.
If your language (Ayeri?) can't make the name words small enough (like
if your "Earth-like" names are 5 or 6 syllables), then you have two
options:
(a) use short forms or nicknames (like in _Ringworld_, where all the
Ringworlders had six-syllable names, but everyone called them by the
first 1 or 2 syllables)
(b) use simple, meaningless words that fit the phonotactics of your
language (like Frodo in _Lord of the Rings_)
Of course, languages and cultures can borrow names of both people and
places. And most of our names (especially Biblical names) are old enough
to be affected by long-term lingustic evolution.
Most of what I said above applies to place names as well as personal
names. Place names are more likely to be descriptive, though, and more
likely to be in a different language. If all else fails, you could just
make up place names and say that they are from a lost language of
ancient times.
I hope all of this is of some help. I don't post much, but I tend to
ramble when I do.
> Cutanoea Caivo! [ With thanks!
Garaz nedesori. (Thanks are not needed.)
--
Michael
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Message: 6
Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 18:01:27 -0400
From: Roger Mills <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Interesting thread on Ideolengua...
and a possible translation exercise to boot!
If anyone has access to their archive (at yahoogroups), check out the most
recent batch of messages beginning with subject "31 a�os del golpe en Chile
(en 40 idiomas) from "Juan Blanco" (commemorating the anti-Allende coup of
9/11/73). As with many of our threads, this one quickly degenerated into a
squabble about "dialect" vs. "language".
Anyhow, 4 of the 40 sentences:
Spanish - mucho m�s temprano que tarde, se abrir�n las grandes alamedas por
donde pase el hombre libre, para construir una sociedad mejor.
Basque - berandu baino lehen, hiribide handiak zabalduko dira, gizaki askeak
hiribide horiek zeharkatuz gizarte berria sortu dezaten.
Dutch - eerder vroeger dan later zullen er zich grote wegen openen die de
vrije mens zal bewandelen om een betere samenleving op te bouwen.
English - sooner rather than later the grand avenues will open and free
people will pass to build a better society.
And to start off: Kash (oratorical style)
cumicu lurundi fandat, engo' raka� i�upahato,
soon instead late, avenue great-pl 3pl-INCH-open-FUT,
re ka� cehokala iharando ri livengini,
REL person freedom-ADJ-PL 3pl-walk-FUT LOC along-it/them,
va' rumale a�andaya lal��
in-order create society better.
Instead of a�andaya, one could use hinda 'world'
(elisions due to following /r/: engo' for engol, va' for vara)
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Message: 7
Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 15:50:49 +0100
From: Michael Poxon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Inventing names
Please, give your names history, as real ones have! If some of the names are
too long, your speakers could have short names (like "Ron" for Ronald, and
so on.)
Personally I love long words. Some of people have names like Gildelilea (5
syllables = "he with the crescent moon in his hair") or fairly normal
"Anglo-Saxon" style formations like "Ildurona" = "noble shield". Naming
could well form a very large part of your conculture.
Mike
> Before I'm starting to work on a conworld I need names, I
> thought & decided. But how to come up with names? Shall I
> just make up (at least for now) random, meaningless names,
... The
> problem with descriptive names, such as "Stormcloud" is
> that they're mostly at least trisyllabic and that way don't
> fit what I'm used to -- European names are rather short,
> only one or two syllables mostly. OTOH, when you're looking
> at Indian or generally SE-Asian names, three syllables are
> very short!
> Then there are the place names ..
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Message: 8
Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 17:09:16 -0700
From: "B. Garcia" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Spanish-related question ((q)SVO ?)
On Wed, 22 Sep 2004 11:22:23 -0400, Roger Mills <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Moi:
> This feature is very much like Indonesian "apa", which (1) indicates a
> yes-no question--
Tagalog also has a question particle, "ba". In Hiligaynon/Ilonggo,
there is also a question particle, "bala". It's generally used when
someone is asking a yes/no question.
Manugbulong bala siya ? - Is he/she a doctor?
profession-medicine (doctor) QUESTION he/she
Pilipina ka bala ? - Are you a Filipina/Filipino?
Filipino you QUESTION
Indi bala ini papel ? - Is this not paper?
Not QUESTION this paper
In Tagalog it works similarly:
Doktor ba si Pedro sa PGH? - Is Pedro a doctor at PGH?
Doctor QUESTION trig. Pedro at PGH
Pupunta ba si Tess sa Cebu bukas? - Is Tess going to Cebu tomorrow?
Going QUESTION trig Tess to Cebu tomorrow
Mabait ba si Maria? - Is Maria kind?
Kind QUESTION trig. Maria
Ba is also used in a tag question to indicate "is it not?" (or less
formally, "right?" ): "hindi ba", or often it gets truncated to "'di
ba"
Maganda ang pelikula, hindi ba? - The movie was good, wasn't it?
Beautiful trig. movie not QUESTION
May tanong ka, 'di ba? - You have a question, don't you?
there.is question you, not QUESTION.
I suspect it also works the same way in Hiligaynon/Ilonggo
--
Listen Johnny;
You're like a mother to the girl you've fallen for,
And you're still falling,
And if they come tonight
You'll roll up tight and take whatever's coming to you next.
Slow Graffitti - Belle and Sebastian
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Message: 9
Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 02:31:18 +0200
From: �ukasz Korczewski <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: English sounds `v' and `w'
Shanthanu Bhardwaj said:
[...]
> Also, is there any online resource for
> proper pronounciation of the IPA symbols(ie. audio files)? There are some
> audios at the IPA site, but they're too noisy to be of much help.
I just typed "IPA sound files" into Google and it returned the good
old "A Sound Reference to the IPA":
http://www.ling.hf.ntnu.no/ipa/full/
--
Lukasz Korczewski
GG: 1783552
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Message: 10
Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 03:08:49 +0200
From: �ukasz Korczewski <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Inventing names
Carsten Becker wrote:
[...]
> The
> problem with descriptive names, such as "Stormcloud" is
> that they're mostly at least trisyllabic and that way don't
> fit what I'm used to -- European names are rather short,
> only one or two syllables mostly.
Well, most of prechristian Slavonic names were trisyllabic (four
syllabes if non-zero case ending). Ancient Greek names had about four
syllabes. Many old Germanic names were pretty long too, and so did old
Celtic names. Malinowski's Trobrianders have names like: To'uluwa or
Molubabeba and a lot of Japanese names are quite long too.
All those names are "descriptive". (Well, as for Trobianders, I'm just
guessing, still reading Malinowski's books). And this length is
natural consequence of this "descriptiveness". (Well, you may have a
monosyllabic language... but _you_ don't.)
In case of modern European names, even if these names were descriptive
in foreign (and ancient) languages in the way of the languages above
(ie. even if they initially have two or more morphemes), they went
often quite a long way until they reached it's modern form and as
foreing and thus "meaningless" they were more prone to shorten and
undergo radical modifications.
--
in hope to be understood
Lukasz Korczewski
GG: 1783552
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Message: 11
Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 15:56:24 -0400
From: Trebor Jung <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: obliques?
?? �rta: "[It] is not clear what a 'transitive' construction really is
outside of such criteria. The fact that a verb has two arguments does not
automatically imply that one is a subject and one an object, since in some
languages various kinds of tests (passivization, e.g.) show the second one
to be some kind of oblique."
Yeah. Cf. "John and Mike went [there]".
Rodlox �rta: "out of curiosity...what is an oblique?"
Something optional--
A: Where did you go yesterday evening?
B: I went to a hockey game.
B could've also said
I went to a hockey game yesterday.
but since A already knew when B went out-- he just wanted to know *where* he
went-- and B knew that A knew that-- B left out "yesterday" since it would
be redundant in this case.
Trebor
"Oysters are a fine thing, so are strawberries: but mashed together?"
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Message: 12
Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 23:51:59 -0400
From: Mike Ellis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Interesting thread on Ideolengua...
Roger Mills wrote:
>and a possible translation exercise to boot!
Sure, why not?
>English - sooner rather than later the grand avenues will open and free
>people will pass to build a better society.
Rhean -
G'ec'a de emz'e donas banke jifugrirzi
ki ver aiyan kvajikad g'adueku ai svabec' p�ki h�lirzi.
later <-not sooner grand avenues MID-open-3PL:FUT
and for better society(-ACC) build-inf-DAT SUBJ free people pass-3PL:FUT
M
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Message: 13
Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 14:11:02 +0930
From: "Adrian Morgan (aka Flesh-eating Dragon)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Conlang Flag: Results Are In!
The flag that was known as "Flag W" has won the election with
overwhelming support. That is, the layered tower silhouetted with the
violet sky.
I have changed <http://web.netyp.com/member/dragon/temp/conlangflag.htm>
to show the result and also to pose a few questions that I think ought
to be asked.
These questions include: in what sizes should the flag be available
(my own opinions are stated)? - and should we work together to
create an official wording for the flag's description (for all I know,
my description may have missed a symbol that someone else sees as
important)?
It's now over to the list to come to an agreement on the issues that
I've raised as well as other issues that I haven't thought of.
If anyone would like to see the .php code that generated the voting
pages, give me a yell.
The votes are listed anonymously at the bottom of this post; you can
see the results for yourself by plugging them into the calculator at
<http://www.ericgorr.net/condorcet/>. Enter "24" for Number of
Options. Pick the election method and verbosity you desire.
Adrian.
1:E>G>N>B>A>L>M>T>W>K>J>V>U>I>H>F>S>C>D>R>X>P>O>Q
1:T=W>K>L>D>I=E>B>A=C=F=G=H=J=M=N=O=P=Q=R=S=U=V=X
1:W>T>V>S>A=B=C=D=E=F=G=H=I=J=K=L=M=N=O=P=Q=R=U=X
1:W>T>S>V>L>M>N>U>K>G>F>D>P>J>X>I>H>B>A>R>O>Q>C>E
1:L>B>A=C=D=E=F=G=H=I=J=K=M=N=O=P=Q=R=S=T=U=V=W=X
1:A=I>B>H>P>J>R>L>O>Q>T>W>M>N>G>F>E>X>D>U>V>S>C>K
1:E>Q>S>A=B=C=D=F=G=H=I=J=K=L=M=N=O=P=R=T=U=V=W=X
1:K>Q>W>P>O>G>F>C>D>N>M>L>A>B>H>I>R>J>S>T>U>V>E>X
1:I>B>D>E>G>A=H>F>L=M=N=O=P=Q=R>T=W>S=V=U>X=C=J>K
1:W>K>Q=P>A=B=C=D=E=F=G=H=I=J=L=M=N=O=R=S=T=U=V=X
1:T>W>S>B>A>E>P>R>C=D=F=G=H=I=J=K=L=M=N=O=Q=U=V=X
1:A=I>X>P>W>B=C=D=E=F=G=H=J=K=L=M=N=O=Q=R=S=T=U=V
1:W>T>K>A=B=C=D=E=F=G=H=I=J=L=M=N=O=P=Q=R=S=U=V=X
1:W>T>S>U=V>K>J>I>H>L=M=N>P>O>R>B=A>X=Q=G=F=E=D=C
1:K>O=P>L>D>V>A=B=C=E=F=G=H=I=J=M=N=Q=R=S=T=U=W=X
1:W=T>Q>S>U=V>L>M>E>D>A=B=C=F=G=H=I=J=K=N=O=P=R=X
1:A>B>W>T>C=D=E=F=G=H=I=J=K=L=M=N=O=P=Q=R=S=U=V=X
1:W=S>L>A=R>D>B=C=E=F=G=H=I=J=K=M=N=O=P=Q=T=U=V=X
1:L=D>W>C=J>A=B=E=F=G=H=I=K=M=N=O=P=Q=R=S=T=U=V=X
1:W>T>S>V>P>U>O>A>B=C=D=E=F=G=H=I=J=K=L=M=N=Q=R=X
1:J>W>T>K>S=L>N>M>E>I>H>V>U=R>B>Q>A>O>P>X>D>F=G=C
1:W>L>D>F>A>I>O>R>B=C=E=G=H=J=K=M=N=P=Q=S=T=U=V=X
1:W>T>U>S>V>Q>P>L>M>O>J>H>I>R>N>K>F=G=X=A=B>D>C>E
1:B>A>R>H>I>T>W>J>K>C=O=P>L=M=N>Q>F=G>D>S>U>V>X>E
1:W>T>U>V>S>K>J>I>H>A=B=C=D=E=F=G=L=M=N=O=P=Q=R=X
1:W>T>S>A=B=C=D=E=F=G=H=I=J=K=L=M=N=O=P=Q=R=U=V=X
1:A>T=W>B=C=D=E=F=G=H=I=J=K=L=M=N=O=P=Q=R=S=U=V=X
1:W>T>J>R>H>P>L>S>V>K>O>I>M=N>A>U=D=F=Q>B=C=E=G=X
1:R=W>A=B=C=D=E=F=G=H=I=J=K=L=M=N=O=P=Q=S=T=U=V=X
1:W>S>O>T>V>U>P>Q>R>J>K>H>I>E>A>B>N>M>L>G>F>D>C>X
1:S>H>W>L=N>T>B>I>A>K>Q>U=V>O>M>F=G>J>R>P>D>C>X>E
1:G>J>P>Q>D>N>L>F>M>A=B=H=I>R=O>K=W=T=S=U=V>C>E>X
1:A>B>T>C=D=E=F=G=H=I=J=K=L=M=N=O=P=Q=R=S=U=V=W=X
1:J>K>Q>O>P=R>H>I>E>W>T>S>U=V>C>B>A>F=G>D>L=M>N>X
1:W=S=V>A=I=K>T=U>L>M=N>E=R>B=C=D=F=G=H=J=O=P=Q=X
1:F>T>W>S>U>V>K>G>J>P>H>I>O>R>A>B>Q>L>M>N>C>D>E>X
1:F=K=T=W=L>M>N>P>O>B>A=C=D=E=G=H=I=J=Q=R=S=U=V=X
1:K>W>V>A=B=C=D=E=F=G=H=I=J=L=M=N=O=P=Q=R=S=T=U=X
1:W>T>S=U=V>K>L=M>H>A=B=C=D=E=F=G=I=J=N=O=P=Q=R=X
1:W>T>V>U>S>K>J>N=M=L>R=P=O>A>B>I>H>G>F>D>C>E>Q>X
1:J>H>W>T>S>V=U>A=B=C=D=E=F=G=I=K=L=M=N=O=P=Q=R=X
1:I>A>H>W>L>J>K>M>X>B=C=D=E=F=G=N=O=P=Q=R=S=T=U=V
1:F>G>D>X>A=B=C=E=H=I=J=K=L=M=N=O=P=Q=R=S=T=U=V=W
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Message: 14
Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 21:53:47 -0700
From: "H. S. Teoh" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Conlang Flag: Results Are In!
On Thu, Sep 23, 2004 at 02:11:02PM +0930, Adrian Morgan (aka Flesh-eating Dragon)
wrote:
> The flag that was known as "Flag W" has won the election with
> overwhelming support. That is, the layered tower silhouetted with the
> violet sky.
[...]
Hmm. I am one of the few who voted against it. Personally, I prefer
the more abstract designs (hmm, seems to have been taken down. Oh
well), but was nomail at the time so didn't have a chance to provide
some input. I appear to be in a vanishingly small minority who prefer
the flags I do. Oh well. I guess I can always design a different 3D
flag for my 4D conlang. :-P
T
--
Too many people have open minds but closed eyes.
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Message: 15
Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 22:10:30 -0700
From: Arthaey Angosii <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Conlang Flag: Results Are In!
Emaelivpeith Adrian Morgan:
> These questions include: in what sizes should the flag be available
> (my own opinions are stated)?
I'd personally like a "medium" size that took up less screen real
estate than the 420 x 260 -- but probably we only need an official
recommended size, and let the actual size vary by what fits with
individuals' web site design needs.
The miniscule version of the flag looks surprisingly clear, even when
the resizing is done by the browser.
--
AA
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Message: 16
Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 02:13:17 EDT
From: David Peterson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Conlang Flag: Results Are In!
First off, I want to say that I know the whole idea of a conlang
flag was controversial, and that I at least played a role in starting
the whole thing. Nevertheless, I think it all went more or less
smoothly, and even though the flag(s) I voted for didn't win, I'm
perfectly happy with the winner.
For those who are still unhappy with the winner, I'd just like to
point out that there have been 27 different versions of the US
flag (not counting the confederate flag), and there are even future
versions in preparation should any new states come into the
union. Point being, this need not necessarily be *the* official conlang
flag
for all time--it's simply the first.
Before commenting on the posts, I'd like to thank Adrian for all
his hard work. You run a tight ship, and none of this would have
gotten off the ground without the work you put in.
Adrian wrote:
<<These questions include: in what sizes should the flag be available
(my own opinions are stated)?>>
Well, for a concrete idea of how size correlates to use, if you go to my
web page:
http://dedalvs.free.fr/
I would like a version small enough to put onto the left sidebar of every
page--but larger than the small flag you made. Ideally, large enough to
*just* fit, but if that's not possible, then close enough.
Anyway, I was thinking we might decide on two things:
(1) An official *real* flag size (i.e., flying on a flag pole);
(2) An official ratio
Then if we could get someone who's good with Photoshop (Christian...?),
it would be neat if we could have a whole bunch of web flags of varying
sizes. These sizes would be unofficial (or, to be more precise, wouldn't
have to be official), but they would suit varying purposes, e.g., so one
wouldn't have to change the layout of one's page so that the flag could
be posted, or settle for a very, very small flag. [Yes, I know that these
are *my* purposes, but it could happen to others.]
Anyway, that would be for web usage. For official usage, if we could
get official dimensions of every single aspect of the flag, and then put
them up on a website somewhere (p.s., if you don't want to host this
Adrian, I'll host it), then if anyone wants to make a real flag, they'll have
precise specifications they can use.
For myself, I was thinking of having two miniature flags made (via
that website I posted awhile back). They'd be on little stands and I'd
put one in my office and keep one at home. In addition to that, though,
I *really* like your refrigerator magnet idea, Adrian. I wonder if there's
a site that'll do that for you...
Anyway, those are my thoughts. What do others think?
T wrote:
<<Oh well. I guess I can always design a different 3D
flag for my 4D conlang. :-P>>
I design conflags for my conlangs all the time. :) I may not conculture,
but conflagging is right up my alley. Haven't there been posts on the
lists before the conlang flag deal came up about conflags...? I was fairly
certain that it was on this list that I first heard the term vexillology.
-David
*******************************************************************
"sunly eleSkarez ygralleryf ydZZixelje je ox2mejze."
"No eternal reward will forgive us now for wasting the dawn."
-Jim Morrison
http://dedalvs.free.fr/
[This message contained attachments]
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Message: 17
Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 07:27:53 +0100
From: Ray Brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: English sounds `v' and `w'
On Wednesday, September 22, 2004, at 06:34 , Benct Philip Jonsson wrote:
> Shanthanu Bhardwaj wrote:
>> Hi all,
>> I don't know if this is silly but I wanted to confirm the exact
>> difference betwwen the sound `v' and `w' in the English language and
>> their
>> IPA representation in ASCII. I think that both the sounds `v' and `w' ar
>> not aspirated in English and the only difference is that `v'(isn't it the
>> same as the hindi `v'?) is labio-dental and `w' is bilabial. Is this
>> right?
No - see Philip's reply below.
> Hindi व (and Swedish |v| BTW) is a labiodental approximant,
> IPA ʋ, CXS [v\] and thus falls inbetween English /v/ and /w/:
It does indeed. I had an Iranian colleague who used his |v\] when
pronouncing English /v/ or /w/. The result is that people tended to 'hear'
[w] for /v/ and [v] for /w/ - i.e. they registered it was not the correct
English sound but, not being familiar with (or even knowing about) a
labio-dental approximant, the brain, so to speak, substituted the nearest
English 'incorrect' phoneme.
> English /v/ is a labiodental fricative, while English /w/ is a
> labiovelar approximant.
Yep, that's it.
Hindi and Swedish /v/ (IPA ʋ) is a labio-dental approximant;
English /v/ (IPA v) is a voiced labio-dental fricative;
English /w/ (IPA w) is a bilabial approximant.
> What you need to do from a Hindi point
> of view is to make a tenser pronunciation to get [v]
Yep, and get some _friction_ in the sound.
> and a
> very lax bilabial pronunciation to get an acceptable [w].
> If you can get hold of a Tibetan and ask him to pronounce
> ངག་དབང་ /Na:waN/ you will hear the right sound in the middle.
=================================================
n Wednesday, September 22, 2004, at 04:20 , Chris Bates wrote:
[snip]
> Correction: I think this has happened in the Romance languages, but some
> thought has thrown up that: Latin wrote both /u/ and /w/ (is w the right
> symbol in X-SAMPA/CXS?) as v
or rather |V|. It did duty for three phonemes /u/, /u:/ and /w/. Claudius
introduced an inverted |F| to denote /w/, but the new letter didn't
survive his reign. The form |u| developed in medieval cursive scripts. It
has become common in the UK for 'serious' Latin texts to be printed with
just a single letter: upper-case |V|, lower-case |u|. It was the humanists
of the Italian Renaissance that hit on the idea of making |V| ~ |u| two
separate letters - which is all very well for modern languages :)
> (w later got changed into v... or seems to
> have done so from my limited knowledge of the evolution of the Romance
> languages, thus causing the never ending debate about how one should
> pronounce v in latin),
It depends what sort of Latin. For medieval Latin [v] is almost certainly
correct.
> suggesting that this had already happened before
> the romans started writing.
Unlikely, methinks. It is, however, debatable whether the Classical Latin
sound was a bilabial approximant [w] or a labio-dental approximant [v\].
We know that in late Latin & Vulgar Latin, words like _amauimus_ (we loved)
and _amabimus_ (we shall love) had become pronounced the same (which was
probably one factor that led to the replacement of the Latin synthetic
future tense by perisphrastic formations); this suggests a pronunciation
like intervocalic /b/ in Spanish, i.e. a voiced bilabial fricative [B],
but one cannot rule out a voiced labio-dental fricative as early as the VL
period. Indeed, as VL was spoken over such a wide area it is not at all
unlikely that there were regional variations.
> Also, I was mainly thinking of spanish
> spelling, in which the vowels u and i are "weak" and tend to turn into
> /w/ and /j/ respectively in front of other vowels. The problem is, the
> Spanish reformed their spelling system, so I don't know if this change
> happened in Medieval Spanish or is simply because of the reforms.
Doesn't this happen in _all_ the Romance languages? The evidence of
developments from Vulgar Latin is that it was a feature of VL (but
Classical Latin verse shows that these vowels retained vocalic status in
the Classical language)
Ray
===============================================
http://home.freeuk.com/ray.brown
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
===============================================
"They are evidently confusing science with technology."
UMBERTO ECO September, 2004
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Message: 18
Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 08:42:55 +0200
From: Andreas Johansson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Inventing names
Quoting Roger Mills <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> Carsten Becker wrote:
>
> > Manisu! [ Be greeted!
> > Sira ilt�yang nelnoin vaena! [ I need your help!
> >
> > Before I'm starting to work on a conworld I need names, I
> > thought & decided. But how to come up with names? Shall I
> > just make up (at least for now) random, meaningless names,
>
> The first Kash name I came up with, "�enji" = Shenji, was completely a
> priori; as I worked on the dictionary I realized that it could be derived,
> and so made �enjik 'stolid, stoic'; likewise other names used constantly in
> example sentences: Mina (fem.), Mita (masc.) ~~ minda 'happy'; Erek (m.) <
> ereken 'ship's captain/owner' according to my notes.
>
> Family names are another matter, so far, as are country names.
The first Tairezan name I came up with, _Th�ra_, was, if truth shall be told,
originally simply an arbitrary modification of "Sarah". It was later
rationalized as a feminine derivative of _th�r_ "beautiful". Tacking an -o (for
masculine) or -a (for feminine) onto adjs is a popular way of forming names and
nicknames in Tairezazh.
The language also has a huge number of names, of people and places, that derive
from various substrate languages. They're generally completely opaque to the
average Tairezan, altho since they've been in the language, in most cases, for
a very long time, they mostly don't otherwise appear as foreign. An exception
is _Aradzha_, the name of a region, that locals insist on pronouncing as
[@'radZ6]. The Standard 'lect uses ['aradZa], with normal Tairezan stress
placement, which is a spelling pronunciation; CK _Ar�dZ�_ should have yielded
simply *_Radzha_ by normal Tairezan developments.
> Well that's logical... One of the oceans on Cindu is called _ro�e aros_
> 'eastern ocean', I suppose because it was the first ocean to be crossed,
> thanks to prevailing winds-- The Kash sailed east to go west, unlike poor
> misguided Columbus.
In Colombus' defense, he had precious little ocean to cross to the east!
Andreas
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Message: 19
Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 09:06:10 +0200
From: Tamas Racsko <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Basque Gender Marking (was Re: Further language development Q's)
On Thu, 23 Sep 2004 Chris Bates <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> AFAIK synthetic verbs (not just auxiliary but a few others
also)
>>have three functional slots for personal agreement marking: "nor"
>> [...]
> This doesn't seem unusual to me given the ergative morphology of the
> rest of Basque. It seems to make perfect sense. :)
My small "essay" served just to show that not the Actor is marked
directly in Basque but functional slots. Therefore there are some
verbs where there is a gender agreement with the (2sg intimate)
Actor, and there are some verbs where not. Because it depends on
the actual slot the Actor occupies.
> Its quite difficult to get good materials even for Basque...
Basque has a fairly good online grammar at
<http://www.ehu.es/grammar/>
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Message: 20
Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 09:12:25 +0200
From: Andreas Johansson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: The etymology of (King) Arthur (was Re: CHAT: reign names)
Quoting Ray Brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> On Tuesday, September 21, 2004, at 12:32 , John Cowan wrote:
>
> > Wesley Parish scripsit:
> >
> >> Future generations of historians will say there was an Anglo-German
> >> Queen with the Corgi as her standard,
>
> _Anglo_? On her dad's side she was of the family Saxe-Coburg-Gotha (fairly
> Germanic sounding!).
If memory serves, the German is _Sachsen_-Coburg-Gotha, which is even more
neato.
> I still find it noteworthy that no ancient author ever referred to the
> inhabitants of Britain or Ireland as Celts, yet they knew Celts on the
> continent.
>
> Far too many assumptions are made IMHO about early Britain.
[snip]
I might be uncharacteristically uninfected by the whole ol' "Celtic Myth" for a
young westerner who spent much of his teens plowing thru Fantasy novels, but
when I hear someone question whether the ancient inhabitants of the British
Isles were "Celts", my immediate interpretation is linguistic - I take it as
questioning whether their languages belong to the same branch of IE as do the
continental Celtic languages (Gaulish and friends). Now, given the arguments
you put forth, it seems pretty clear you're rather addressing a question of
what might be called ethnic identity.
What I'm getting at is that this kind of question may be more fruitfully
discussed if it's clear at the outset if we by terms such as "Celts" refers to
a linguistic, cultural, racial or other grouping.
Andreas
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Message: 21
Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 09:15:43 +0200
From: Andreas Johansson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Inventing names
Quoting Michael Potter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> (b) use simple, meaningless words that fit the phonotactics of your
> language (like Frodo in _Lord of the Rings_)
Actually, _Frodo_ is a "modification" of _Frothi_, a Germanic name which may
mean "The Fruitful". Even if that interpretation should be false, there's good
reasons to believe it originally meant something, since Germanic names normally
do.
Andreas
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Message: 22
Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 00:26:07 -0700
From: Arthaey Angosii <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Conlang Flag: Results Are In!
> I *really* like your refrigerator magnet idea, Adrian. I wonder if there's
> a site that'll do that for you...
* http://www.branders.com/ -- Minimum order of 500 magnets at $0.47
each, or $235.
* http://www.autoplates.com/magnets.html -- Minimum 500 @ $0.30, or $150.
* http://www.websticker.com/magnets.htm -- Minumum 125, pricing via
email quotes.
So, in other words, I didn't find any reasonable magnet-makers. I was
hoping Cafe Press could help out, but they only have circular magnets.
They d� have rectangular stickers, though:
* http://www.cafepress.com/ -- Minimum 1 @ $2.49 each.
While their prices are much higher per unit, it works out when we want
so few units total. :) If anyone else finds better deals or new ideas,
do share!
--
AA
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Message: 23
Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 17:11:02 +0930
From: "Adrian Morgan (aka Flesh-eating Dragon)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Conlang Flag: Results Are In!
H. S. Teoh wrote:
> Hmm. I am one of the few who voted against it.
It was my ninth choice (which indicates that it was neither one of the
best nor one of the worst, IMO) mostly because I wasn't keen on the
Tower of Babel symbol. Seems kind of strange to allude to a legend in
which language diversity is portrayed as an obstacle imposed to limit
what humanity can achieve, when most of us view language diversity as
an opportunity rather than a hindrance.
But I don't have any problem accepting the majority view, even if it
isn't my own.
The first of the votes I listed was my own, that is to say
"E>G>N>B>A>L>M>T>W>K>J>V>U>I>H>F>S>C>D>R>X>P>O>Q" (E was my first
choice, Q was my last choice).
Arthaey Angosii wrote:
> The miniscule version of the flag looks surprisingly clear, even when
> the resizing is done by the browser.
Huh? The miniscule version is not resized by the browser - it is a
seperately drawn image. This is explicitely stated on the site.
Perhaps you skimmed it too fast?
David Peterson wrote:
> Before commenting on the posts, I'd like to thank Adrian for all
> his hard work. You run a tight ship, and none of this would have
> gotten off the ground without the work you put in.
I don't know anything about tight ships, but I *do* believe in trying
my best to do a job properly, once I've undertaken to do it at all. :-)
At the beginning, it seemed that only a handful of people would be
interested in the flag discussion, but against my own expectations
(and I suspect everyone else's as well), an overwhelming interest soon
mounted, and before I knew it people were relying heavily upon the
pages I had set up. I adapted to this situation as best I could...
> it would be neat if we could have a whole bunch of web flags of varying
> sizes.
Hopefully the present discussion can help decide what those sizes
should be, and how many of them.
I personally favour the width of the flag being a multiple of sixty
pixels, simply because I'm the sort of person who likes things to be
mathematically neat. I certainly won't be imposing my preferences on
anyone, however.
The ratio is the integer approximation of the Golden Ratio.
Once a range of sizes have been created, everyone who includes the
design on their website will, implicitely, be hosting their own
favoured size variation(s) of the flag. I have every intention of
doing this myself, with my own favoured sizes.
I will not, however, permanently host the entire catalogue.
> For myself, I was thinking of having two miniature flags made (via
> that website I posted awhile back). They'd be on little stands and I'd
> put one in my office and keep one at home. In addition to that, though,
> I *really* like your refrigerator magnet idea, Adrian. I wonder if there's
> a site that'll do that for you...
There's a million ideas ... I mean, coffee mugs, with the flag on one
side and a Babel translation on the other, and make a whole series of
mugs featuring different conlangs ... there's no limit to the
possibilities.
Adrian.
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Message: 24
Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 11:24:09 +0200
From: BP Jonsson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Inventing names
Citerar Andreas Johansson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> Quoting Roger Mills <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> > Well that's logical... One of the oceans on Cindu is called _ro�e aros_
> > 'eastern ocean', I suppose because it was the first ocean to be crossed,
> > thanks to prevailing winds-- The Kash sailed east to go west, unlike poor
> > misguided Columbus.
>
> In Colombus' defense, he had precious little ocean to cross to the east!
Also in his defense most sea streams and wind belts on Earth go
east-to-west. Cindu obviously rotates in the opposite direction
to Earth, for whatever reason! ;)
/BP
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Message: 25
Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 11:31:19 +0200
From: taliesin the storyteller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Conlang Flag: Results Are In!
* Adrian Morgan (aka Flesh-eating Dragon) said on 2004-09-23 06:41:02 +0200
> I have changed <http://web.netyp.com/member/dragon/temp/conlangflag.htm>
> to show the result and also to pose a few questions that I think ought
> to be asked.
>
> These questions include: in what sizes should the flag be available
Simple: make a flag, with chosen ratio, in a vector-format, that way
it is very easy to resize. Then anyone can resize it to a size that
suits them.
t.
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