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There are 9 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1. Re: English sounds `v' and `w'
From: "J. 'Mach' Wust" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2. new congrammar - " *aiinodbus' "
From: Rodlox <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3. Re: Number/Specificality/Archetypes in Language
From: Philippe Caquant <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4. Re: 4D conlang [Was: Re: I'm back!]
From: Rodlox <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5. Re: META: Conlang IRC Woes
From: taliesin the storyteller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6. Re: English sounds `v' and `w'
From: Joe <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7. Re: Another idea for a script for Ayeri
From: "J. 'Mach' Wust" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8. Re: Conlang Flag: Results Are In!
From: Philippe Caquant <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9. Re: I'm back!
From: Wesley Parish <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
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Message: 1
Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 05:41:19 -0400
From: "J. 'Mach' Wust" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: English sounds `v' and `w'
On Wed, 22 Sep 2004 14:44:08 +0100, Chris Bates
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> This might be a bad suggestion, but if you're trying to get w right you
>might try pronouncing /u/ (I assume hindi has this sound?) and then
>shortening it as much as possible... in some languages (the romance
>languages spring to mind), u has become similar to an english w in some
>positions in words, and if I try pronouncing /uest/ for west and then
>shortening the /u/ as much as possible it gets to the point where it
>sounds almost exactly like west is normally pronounced to me. :)
I've always thought that [w] is the same as [u_ˆ] (unsyllabic [u]) and [j]
the same as [i_ˆ], the choice depending rather on phonemic considerations.
[EMAIL PROTECTED]:
j. 'mach' wust
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Message: 2
Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 13:10:12 +0200
From: Rodlox <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: new congrammar - " *aiinodbus' "
tried to send this yesterday
> while I go and order the reccomended books online, I would simply like to
> know if my grammar/language ideas (as follows) are plausible, or if I have
> things bass ackwards here as well.
>
> thank you.
>
>
> rules:
> no double vowels.
> no triple consanants.
> 'dy' can not be used to prefix or start a word; nor can 'sy' 'zy' or (_).
> 'gh' can not be used to suffix or end a word; nor can ('kh')* or (_).
> suffixes can not be used as prefixes.
> prefixes can not be used as suffixes.
> clicks can only prefix words.
> clicks can not prefix particibles or non-word single-phonemes. (ie, the
man
> threw *a* ball").
> prefixes can not prefix clicks.
> clicks can prefix prefixes that are attached to words.
> there are no double clicks.
> * = I'm of two minds about that one.
>
> vocabulary:
>
> ghere = narrate, narration
> ghore = he narrates [thusly]
> ghure = she narrates [thusly]
> ghoure = it was relayed [to me] that it was narrated [thusly]
> *for the ending of a narration, replace GH with KH;
> khore = [and so] he narrated
>
> s'aih = you
> s'aoh = they
> s'aeh = other
>
> sobe = to
> sabe = from
> sebe = with
> sibe = by
> siibe = of
>
> throw = ghekh
> hit = ghedh
> kick = ghadh
> butting = ghakh
>
> but = dusu
> and = sudu
> as well (as) = susudu
> and then = sudusudu
> so, therefore = dususu
> because = susu
> however = dusudu
>
> dyen = man
> dyon = woman
> dyiin = anon.
> dyiinaum = unknown
> (so...what function does the -aum serve? how does it go from Anonymous ->
> Unknown ?).
> dyaen = person, people [abstract concept]
>
> * is a trigger, an emphasis-marker. Some speakers of this language, use *
> to place emphasis on whether the recipient or the giver is older or
> higher-ranked than the other person.
> ie, "dyenasy *dyonaze [toaster]" = "the man gives a toaster to
> _the_woman_" or "he gives _her_ a toaster"
>
> postfixes:
> past tense:
> -(a)zye
> -(a)sye
> ie, "dyenazye" = "man got"
> present tense:
> -(a)zy = recipient
> -(a)sy = bestower
> -aum = (?)
> ie, "dyenasy" = "man is given"
> future tense:
> -(a)zya = recipient
> -(a)sya = bestower
> ie, "dyenasya" = "man will get"
>
> accuracy is implied by context...
> "dyenasy s'aoh ghedh" = "the man gives / they / hit" = "the man
hits,
> they are not hit" -> "the man hits and misses them".
>
> acceptance is implied by context. to use the toaster of earlier...
> "dyenasy dyon [toaster]" = "the man gives / the woman / a toaster"
> in this example, the woman does not accept the toaster.
> "dyenasy dyonazy [toaster]" = "the man gives / the woman recieves / a
> toaster"
> in this example, she does accept the toaster.
>
>
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Message: 3
Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 11:51:17 +0200
From: Philippe Caquant <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Number/Specificality/Archetypes in Language
--- Ray Brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> a �crit�:
> As I've said, it depends how one defines
> "archetype". I was talking in
> Platonic terms. Certainly to Plato, Maleness &
> Elephanthood are 'Forms'
> that have greater reality than any individual
> elephant that shares in
> these archetypal Forms.
>
> [snip]
>
> The only similarity between Plato's ideas & that of
> OOP is that just as we
> can have hierarchies of classes so it is clear that
> there was a hierarchy
> of Forms/Archetypes. But there important
> differences.
>
> In OOP the class definition is an _abstract_
> definition, this applies both
> to superclasses and subclasses. Objects are the
> actual instantiations of
> such classes. In Plato's thinking the Forms are not
> abstract; they not
> only have a transcendent existence, they are more
> real than anything we
> see in the physical material world.
Hmmm... "more real" doesn't mean much to me. To me,
that's all a question of mental representation,
limited by the possibilities of the human brain. Of
course, in Plato's time, people probably considered
things differently. I would say that "maleness" and
"elephanthood" are more primitive concepts than "male
elephant", and they can be combined in order to
produce the concept of a male elephant. But it might
well be that that aren't any things like males,
elephants or male elephants in reality.
Plato's conception should probably be adapted to our
time, but something from it might be re-used,
reorienting it in a different perspective.
> Also an important difference IMO is that Plato's
> Forms are static, but OOP
> classes not only have static attributes but also
> have _methods_, i.e. are
> dynamic. This is important difference between
> old-fashioned 'records' and
> the newer 'objects'. It is also, i think, an
> important difference between
> OOP classes & Platonic Forms.
Well, clearly Plato's concern was not about methods,
but rather about knowledge and reality. But it's easy
to imagine an "elephant.eat" method.
(BTW, I just tested my first function for reversing
the nodes (and also the order of the characters in the
text fields) inside a HTML document, using the DOM
specifications, and I find it great ! Applying such a
function to an elephant would be quite exciting,
although rather cruel).
> > In the
> >> Platonic sense, nothing _belongs_ to an
> Archetype.
> >> The things of this
> >> world (which to Plato were less than real -
> shadows
> >> of shadows)
> >> 'participate' in or share in an Archetype and,
> >> indeed, will share in more
> >> than one Archetype.
> >
> > So they inherit properties from different
> archetypes ?
>
> Yes, but do not think Plato would see it that way at
> all. Objects inherit
> methods & attributes of the class of which they are
> instantiations. But
> humans, elephants, tables, computers, trees, etc.,
> etc. are not for Plato
> instantiations. But. i admit, it is not entirely
> clear how he saw
> _metekein_ working.
>
If it means "participate", then one perhaps could
compare it to a human being participating to different
clubs or associations, being a subscriber or a
customer for different products, etc. You can be a
conlanger, a vegetarian, a baseball player, a faithful
reader of "Playboy" and an Electricite de France
customer. None of these aspects defines you, you don't
"belong" to any of these entities, and you can share
in many of them at the same time. And Electricite de
France will survive even if you die or revoke your
subscribing (and also the concept of "E.D.F. customer"
will survive). The verb "to be" has very many
different meanings, and this confuses us.
(snip)
>
> Unless, like my grandmother - dead for many a year
> now -you believe no
> Americans ever went near the moon and the whole thin
> was acted out in some
> TV studio or film set ;)
>
It's not impossible. You can't trust anything any more
nowadays (consider the "proofs" for the presence of
massive destruction weapons in Irak). Desinformation
is the universal rule.
=====
Philippe Caquant
Ceterum censeo *vi* esse oblitterandum (Me).
Vous manquez d�espace pour stocker vos mails ?
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________________________________________________________________________
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Message: 4
Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 13:09:45 +0200
From: Rodlox <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: 4D conlang [Was: Re: I'm back!]
twas over quota yesterday.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Rodlox <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: Constructed Languages List <Sent: Wednesday, September 22, 2004 8:32
PM
> Subject: Re: Re: 4D conlang [Was: Re: I'm back!]
>
>
> >
> > I might likely be wrong, but I thought to add this, in the hopes of
> helping
> > out...
> >
> > Humans, despite being 3-D beings, are mostly 2-D in language and
movement
> > (left, right, forward, back - you can't walk in any other direction
> without
> > a ladder or water).
> >
> > a dolphin, on the other hand, thanks to its sonar, *can* essentially
see
> in
> > 3-D, and there are theories that they can "speak" in 3-D as well.
> >
> > so...are your living-in-a-4D-world beings more like a Human or a
dolphin?
> > *curious*
> >
> > hope that helps.
> >
> >
> >
>
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Message: 5
Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 11:52:39 +0200
From: taliesin the storyteller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: META: Conlang IRC Woes
* Robert Hill said on 2004-09-22 16:40:02 +0200
> On Wednesday 22 September 2004 18:01, Steg Belsky wrote:
> > �sigh...�
> >
> > the internet connection i just got to my university *blocks all
> > IRC*, dang them.
> >
> > Moral quandary... go back to piggybacking on my neighbors' wireless
> > network connection, or try and find some way to bypass the IRC block
> > on my own? :-P
> Bah, SSH into priscilla.ath.cx and ill give you a shell to IRC from ;)
Or run irssi or other program that can proxy irc outside your U. then
use an ssh-tunnel or connect to a different port.
t.
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Message: 6
Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 10:56:25 +0100
From: Joe <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: English sounds `v' and `w'
J. 'Mach' Wust wrote:
>On Wed, 22 Sep 2004 14:44:08 +0100, Chris Bates
><[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>
>
>>This might be a bad suggestion, but if you're trying to get w right you
>>might try pronouncing /u/ (I assume hindi has this sound?) and then
>>shortening it as much as possible... in some languages (the romance
>>languages spring to mind), u has become similar to an english w in some
>>positions in words, and if I try pronouncing /uest/ for west and then
>>shortening the /u/ as much as possible it gets to the point where it
>>sounds almost exactly like west is normally pronounced to me. :)
>>
>>
>
>I've always thought that [w] is the same as [u_ˆ] (unsyllabic [u]) and [j]
>the same as [i_ˆ], the choice depending rather on phonemic considerations.
>
>
That's because it is. Apparently, though, historically, it was the other
way round: IE. *[u] is *[w=], and *[i] is *[j=].
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Message: 7
Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 06:23:59 -0400
From: "J. 'Mach' Wust" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Another idea for a script for Ayeri
On Wed, 22 Sep 2004 17:56:34 +0200, Carsten Becker
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>Hey!
>
>I've come up with another script for my conlang Ayeri
>recently. I couldn't stand the Javanese-like script anymore
>because everything looked far too similar and was
>unnececerilly complicated in some ways. The latest idea is
>a script that can be quite easily carved into stone or
>wood, that's why it has some kind of runic character. I was
>basically "inspired" by (read "I stole shapes from") Latin,
>Cyrillic, Tamil, Tengwar(?). Because I still have no
>scanner, I made a TTF font (not online yet) and wrote a PDF
>document (with OOO under Linux :-)) ) of the description:
>www.beckerscarsten.de/conlang/ayeri/ayerialphabet.pdf
><http://www.beckerscarsten.de/conlang/ayeri/ayerialphabet.pdf>
Nice script! Looks as if it could be evolved into a cursive version (in some
centuries).
I don't think that the forms you show is very suited to be carved on wood
due to the many right angles and the narrow parallels. I imagine that they
use another variant for wood carving.
[EMAIL PROTECTED]:
j. 'mach' wust
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Message: 8
Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 12:24:03 +0200
From: Philippe Caquant <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Conlang Flag: Results Are In!
--- "Adrian Morgan (aka Flesh-eating Dragon)"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> a �crit�:
> The flag that was known as "Flag W" has won the
> election with
> overwhelming support. That is, the layered tower
> silhouetted with the
> violet sky.
>
> I have changed
>
<http://web.netyp.com/member/dragon/temp/conlangflag.htm>
> to show the result (snip)
I didn't vote because I had lost the URL once more and
was tired to look after it :-] so I won't contest the
result.
So this is purely a remark:
- my impression, when looking at that flag, is about
something dark, even ominous, and much more like a
moonrise than a sunrise. The tower looks heavy and
gives a feeling of being very much attached to the
earth (materiality ?), rather than rising up toward an
ideal. This could probably be corrected by changing a
little the colours (making them lighter) and maybe
adding a star or something to figure the
(inaccessible) ideal.
If the idea is to suggest how hard, heavy, painful and
distressing it is to build a conlang, and to get out
of the darkness (of ignorance ?), then the flag fits
certainly quite well ;-)
But the idea of the never-completed tower seems ok to
me and I like it.
I think I probably would have voted for the flag with
the perl. I must be some idealist...
=====
Philippe Caquant
Ceterum censeo *vi* esse oblitterandum (Me).
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________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 9
Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 23:36:50 +1200
From: Wesley Parish <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: I'm back!
Good to hear from both of you! Hanuman, I'd come back to the list and found
you gone, and I didn't know what had happened!
Good to hear from you, good to hear from Teoh!
Wesley Parish
On Thu, 23 Sep 2004 06:20, J Y S Czhang wrote:
> Welcome back, Teoh!
> Missed ya.
> And an eager, happy-bappy Hello to all & sundry (and
> sun-dried)...::imitates Tigger & bounces 'round the room::
>
> I, too, have been highly busy & non-conlanging (been more preoccuppied with
> finding a place to live, health problems, and with my usual creative sonic
> mischief [_sonomu_ = sound + noise + music]::BiG GRiN, wink at all the
> musical conlangers::
>
> I no longer have my old Mac (it died :( , so since I have my "newer" iMac
> packed still, I am limited to the local library's 'puters - at 1/2 hour
> limit! I also have my toy piano packed - as well as most of my percussion,
> but my mother has an ol' upright & the retirement home she's in has an
> organ. Lately I have been dreaming up a plucked/bowed string/zither
> instrument...
>
> That's all for now, peeps.
> Hanuman Zhang a.k.a. "Stitch"
--
Wesley Parish
* * *
Clinersterton beademung - in all of love. RIP James Blish
* * *
Mau e ki, "He aha te mea nui?"
You ask, "What is the most important thing?"
Maku e ki, "He tangata, he tangata, he tangata."
I reply, "It is people, it is people, it is people."
________________________________________________________________________
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