------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~-->
$9.95 domain names from Yahoo!. Register anything.
http://us.click.yahoo.com/J8kdrA/y20IAA/yQLSAA/GSaulB/TM
--------------------------------------------------------------------~->
There are 25 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1. Re: OOPs!! When is a class not a class? (Re: Number/Specificality/Archetypes
in Language)
From: Keith Gaughan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2. Re: Conlang Flag: Results Are In!
From: Christian Thalmann <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3. Re: Basque Gender Marking (was Re: Further language development Q's)
From: Chris Bates <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4. Conlangs of mischief (Was: Re: I'm back!)
From: "H. S. Teoh" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5. Re: Conlang Flag: Results Are In!
From: taliesin the storyteller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6. CHAT: day before yesterday
From: Roger Mills <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7. Re: Conlangs of mischief (Was: Re: I'm back!)
From: Rodlox <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8. Re: Conlangs of mischief (Was: Re: I'm back!)
From: Robert Hill <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9. Re: CHAT: day before yesterday
From: "J. 'Mach' Wust" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10. Re: Conlangs of mischief (Was: Re: I'm back!)
From: "H. S. Teoh" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11. Re: Conlangs of mischief (Was: Re: I'm back!)
From: Robert Hill <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12. Re: Conlangs of mischief (Was: Re: I'm back!)
From: David Peterson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13. Example Usage (Re: Conlang Flag: Results Are In!)
From: David Peterson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14. Word order (Was: Conlangs of mischief (Which in turn was: Re: I'm back!)
From: Robert Hill <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15. Re: Example Usage (Re: Conlang Flag: Results Are In!)
From: Muke Tever <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16. Re: CHAT: day before yesterday
From: "Mark J. Reed" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17. Re: Conlangs of mischief (Was: Re: I'm back!)
From: "H. S. Teoh" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18. Re: Inventing names
From: Michael Potter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19. Re: Inventing names
From: Roger Mills <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20. Proto-Languages Question
From: Elliott Lash <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21. Re: CHAT: day before yesterday
From: Philip Newton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22. Re: Proto-Languages Question
From: David Peterson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23. Re: Conlang Flag: Results Are In!
From: Leland Paul <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24. Re: Conlang Flag: Results Are In!
From: "Adrian Morgan (aka Flesh-eating Dragon)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25. Re: Conlangs of mischief (Was: Re: I'm back!)
From: Andreas Johansson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 1
Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 21:57:57 +0100
From: Keith Gaughan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: OOPs!! When is a class not a class? (Re: Number/Specificality/Archetypes
in Language)
Ray Brown wrote:
> (Yes, I'm replying to myself!)
>
> On Wednesday, September 22, 2004, at 08:23 , Ray Brown wrote:
>
>> On Tuesday, September 21, 2004, at 09:32 , Philippe Caquant wrote:
>
> [snip]
>
>>> Yes, looks like that; yet I was very pleased to
>>> discover that in JavaScript, the properties of an
>>> object belonging to a class can be in contradiction
>>> with the general class properties (the prototype ones,
>>> if I got it right). As I understood it, if you refer
>>> to an object's property, Javascript will first look
>>> for an explicit property at the very object level; if
>>> it doesn't find it there, it will look for it at the
>>> prototype level;
>>
>>
>> Yes, yes - and classes may be sub-classes of others.
>>
>> JavaScript has merely taken these ideas over from Java & they've been
>> around in object-oriented programming (OOP) for a few decades.
>
>
> OOPs!! Someone has informed me that JavaScript does *not* have the formal
> notion of class in the sense that the term is used in OOP and in the way
> that C++ and Java does. I must confess that my object-oriented programming
> has been a little in C++ and quite a lot in Delphi and Java. So far I've
> done _very_ little in JavaScript, so when Philippe mentioned objects and
> classes in JavaScript, I assumed that the terms were being used in the
> traditional OOP manner. I should have known better: other than a
> resemblance in syntax, JavaScript has nothing to do with Java. (Darned
> scripting languages :)
>
> In fact, I discover the way JavaScript deals with objects is quite
> different the classic OOP languages. It seems books on JavaScript are in
> the habit of using the term 'class' informally for, as I understand it, a
> set of objects sharing similar properties & methods. But - {blushes deeply}
> - if I had stopped to think about it, Javascript could not have formal
> classes because it is such a weakly typed language. (Darned scripting
> languages :)
>
> OK - Philippe, if your only experience of using objects is JavaScript,
> maybe we had better not continue using the class ~ object analogy
> otherwise we are very likely to be talking at cross-purposes, which won't
> help anybody.
Oh, for the time! JavaScript uses prototype-based OO, unlike the
class-based OO of most languages. The thing about POP is that it's
far more powerful and flexible than classed-based OO.
I don't have a lot of time to go into it. But I'll say that it's a
really bad idea to try and program JavaScript like a class-based
language. While you can, you end up missing out on a lot of the power
it has hidden within. Off the top of my head, I'd so say read the
following:
* http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prototype-based_programming
* http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Closure_%28computer_science%29
* http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Function_objects
* http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?JavaScript
* http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?WhatIsClosure
* http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?ScopeAndClosures
* http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?ClosuresAndObjectsAreEquivalent
* http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?LexicalClosure
* http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?ClassesVsPrototypes
* http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?PrototypeBasedLanguage
--
Keith Gaughan -- talideon.com
The man who removes a mountain begins
by carrying away small stones...
...to make place for some really big nukes!
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 2
Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 21:14:06 -0000
From: Christian Thalmann <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Conlang Flag: Results Are In!
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], "Adrian Morgan (aka Flesh-eating
Dragon)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> These questions include: in what sizes should the flag be available
> (my own opinions are stated)? - and should we work together to
> create an official wording for the flag's description (for all I know,
> my description may have missed a symbol that someone else sees as
> important)?
I've uploaded various sizes here:
http://www.cinga.ch/art/conflag/final/
IMHO, those who liked the bluer violet better can just
as well make a color variation of their own, it should
still be well recognizable.
Thanks for all the votes, people. =) Congratulations
to all builders of this flag, especially to Leland who
first submitted this layout concept.
-- Christian Thalmann
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 3
Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 22:04:59 +0100
From: Chris Bates <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Basque Gender Marking (was Re: Further language development Q's)
Thomas R. Wier wrote:
>From: Tamas Racsko <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
>
>>Chris Bates wrote:
>>
>>
>>>I don't think even Inuit can beat this level of agreement lol...
>>>
>>>
>
>I assume by agreement you mean TAM markers.
>
>
Nope, I meant agreement with arguments... agreement with Absolutive,
Ergative argument etc. I was saying I don't think that even Inuit
exceeds Basque because in all the examples of inuit I've seen, the verb
at most agrees with two arguments of the phrase: the Absolutive and
Ergative arguments. Perhaps it can also agree with other arguments, but
I've never seen an example of it, so I don't know. :) A Basque verb, as
I was saying, can agree with: the Absolutive, Ergative, Dative arguments
and also agree with the gender of the listener. Inuit probably does
exceed basque in TAM combinations... The only reason I mentioned inuit
is because it has a reputation as one of the most polysynthetic
languages around. :)
>
>
>> I am not aware of Inuit grammar, but polysynthetical languages
>>may have additional slots for further case agreement.
>>
>>
>
>If we include all the sorts of specific modal or quasimodal markers
>in Inuit, I would say (based on Chris's description, since my knowledge
>of Basques is not great) that Inuit far exceeds Basque. The following
>is typical:
>
> Inuttut isikkoqalertarsimasut
> person appearance-have-begin-HAB-PERF=PART/3p
> 'Perhaps, they said, they took on human appearance when they died'
>
>Jerry Sadock tells me that these kinds of constructions are actually
>proliferating with modernization in Greenland, since that's how all
>the bureaucrats speak!
>
>
>
This doesn't seem to be exhibiting a vast amount of agreement of the
kind I was referring to... there is certainly a lot of TAM information
in there though. :)
>> I have an
>>example from Sumerian where locative marking is involved in
>>addition: |mu-na-ni-n-du-{}| 'he/she has built it there for
>>him/her'; |mu| ventive modality: Actor is animate; |na| < |ra| -
>>dative marker: sg3 animate Recipient; |ni| - locative marker; |n| -
>>ergative and aspect marker: sg3 Actor from perfective (=hamtu)
>>series; |du| - verbal stem: to build; |{}| (terminal zero morpheme)
>>- absolutive marker: sg3 inanimate Patient.
>>
>>
>
>I would be very wary about making any arguments from Sumerian.
>Our understanding of its phonology and morphology are based
>almost entirely on how Sumerian words borrowed into Akkadian
>were pronounced, sometimes centuries after Sumerian ceased to
>be spoken as a living language. It is therefore difficult if
>not impossible to know whether these kinds of collocations that
>you mention are not just cliticized forms, and we can therefore
>not know whether to call Sumerian polysynthetic (to the extent
>that that term has any real meaning).
>
>Anyways, I agree with your general contention. Basque doesn't
>seem weird by agreeing with so many arguments.
>
>
I wasn't saying basque was strange for agreeing with so many
arguments... I was just saying it was strange for the verb to be able to
agree with the gender of the listener when there seems to be no other
gender based distinction in the grammar. I would have expected second
person gender agreement only if there was a much more extensive system
of grammatical gender, although obviously my expectations were wrong. :)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 4
Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 14:26:06 -0700
From: "H. S. Teoh" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Conlangs of mischief (Was: Re: I'm back!)
On Thu, Sep 23, 2004 at 11:02:56PM +0200, Rodlox wrote:
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: H. S. Teoh <
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Thursday, September 23, 2004 8:42 PM
> Subject: Re: I'm back!
[...]
> > Darn, just when I thought Ebis�dian was the cause of all mischief. :-P
> > :-P
>
> there's a new compeditor to Ebis(e)dian....and that's Metes.
> :)
Alright, bring it on. Let's see what mischief Metes can cause that
Ebis�dian can't do worse. :-)
I'll start: there is no distinction between 2nd and 3rd person in
Ebis�dian. This is wonderfully destructive in relays involving
conversations (although we haven't had one like that yet---which may
be a good thing, depending on your POV). Let's see Metes beat that.
;-)
T
--
I think the conspiracy theorists are out to get us...
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 5
Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 23:45:19 +0200
From: taliesin the storyteller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Conlang Flag: Results Are In!
* Adrian Morgan (aka Flesh-eating Dragon) said on 2004-09-23 17:16:30 +0200
> taliesin the storyteller wrote:
>
> > Simple: make a flag, with chosen ratio, in a vector-format, that way
> > it is very easy to resize. Then anyone can resize it to a size that
> > suits them.
>
> I'm not aware of the existence of vector formats that are both
> suitable and widely available, but I'm willing to be educated in the
> matter ...
Not to use on webpages (though there .svg might/should eventually work)
but as a storage format. There are lots of *programs* that can handle
vector graphics (like coreldraw to pick a windows program), and if we
ever publish a book with the flag, they're much preferred by
professional printing places (also the t-shirt-printing kind). This way
it could be converted to the desired size by the end-user instead of
having lots of almost equal variants floating around.
As for ratios, I vote for the golden mean throughout.
t.
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 6
Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 18:27:57 -0400
From: Roger Mills <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: CHAT: day before yesterday
This went to Philip directly, thanks to gmail......
Andreas/Philip Newton wrote:
> On Wed, 22 Sep 2004 11:20:25 +0200, Andreas Johansson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
> > * It's always annoyed me that English hasn't got a single word for "the
> > day
> > before yesterday", nor "the day after tomorrow". > Indeed; those days
> > are simply named "the day before yesterday" and
> "the day after tomorrow", as you not.
snipalot of Philip...
> What do your conlangs have? Anything more than "tomorrow" and "yesterday"?
>
Kash: letrata (lero+rata day-come) tomorrow
letratam�s (...+one) day after tomorrow
sapat, sapam�s ~sap�s idem. (synonyms, but possibly an accidental
duplication of effort)
koprat yesterday, kopram�s ~kopr�s day before yesterday
The element -p(r)at suggests these might be (old?) compounds, but if so, I
don't remember, and neither do Kash speakers :-)))
You might could do other time periods, but they'd just be phrasal, TIME +
number + rata/cosa (come, go)--
Perhaps pehan mes cosa 'year before last' (?) as opposed to mesa pehan cosa
'one year ago' and pehan cosa 'last year'. Hmm, doesn't sound right...pehan
cosa mes sounds better, but.......do we really need these?
Indonesian:
besok 'tomorrow'; besok lusa 'day after...' is what I always heard, although
lusa by itself means 'day after...' according to my dictionary; the phrase
is said to mean 'shortly thereafter'.
kemaren 'yesterday', kemaren dulu (...+formerly) 'day before...'
lusa and dulu aren't used with other time words in this sense--lusa only
occurs with besok AFAIK, xxx dulu would simply mean 'a former/previous xxx--
e.g. dalam tempo dulu 'in former times'
Otherwise, phrases with akan datang 'will come' or lalu 'gone by'--
minggu yang akan datang 'next week', tahun yang lalu 'last year'
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 7
Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2004 02:35:35 +0200
From: Rodlox <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Conlangs of mischief (Was: Re: I'm back!)
> On Thu, Sep 23, 2004 at 11:02:56PM +0200, Rodlox wrote:
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: H. S. Teoh <
> > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Sent: Thursday, September 23, 2004 8:42 PM
> > Subject: Re: I'm back!
> [...]
> > > Darn, just when I thought Ebis�dian was the cause of all mischief. :-P
> > > :-P
> >
> > there's a new compeditor to Ebis(e)dian....and that's Metes.
> > :)
>
> Alright, bring it on. Let's see what mischief Metes can cause that
> Ebis�dian can't do worse. :-)
can you get archived messages from the relay list? that might give you a
hint. :)
> I'll start: there is no distinction between 2nd and 3rd person in
> Ebis�dian. This is wonderfully destructive in relays involving
> conversations (although we haven't had one like that yet---which may
> be a good thing, depending on your POV). Let's see Metes beat that.
no word order.
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 8
Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 19:23:18 +0000
From: Robert Hill <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Conlangs of mischief (Was: Re: I'm back!)
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1
On Friday 24 September 2004 00:35, Rodlox wrote:
>
> > I'll start: there is no distinction between 2nd and 3rd person in
> > Ebis�dian. This is wonderfully destructive in relays involving
> > conversations (although we haven't had one like that yet---which may
> > be a good thing, depending on your POV). Let's see Metes beat that.
>
> no word order.
Bah, Teoh has you beat there, plenty of conlangs get by with little or no word
order and rely solely on context or modifiers of some sort.
My money's still on Teoh :)
- --
- -----------------------------------------------
The CONLANG-IRC Server: priscilla.ath.cx #conlang
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.2.6 (GNU/Linux)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=9SzR
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 9
Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 19:41:41 -0400
From: "J. 'Mach' Wust" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: CHAT: day before yesterday
On Thu, 23 Sep 2004 18:02:05 +0200, Philip Newton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
>German doesn't even have single words for "last/next week/month/year"
>(and only a dialectal/regional word "heuer" for "this year").
Additionally, there are dialects that have a word for 'last year': _färn_
[f&:rn] (though this is already kind of old-fashioned). There are also words
for 'tonight': _hinech_ ['[EMAIL PROTECTED] and 'yesterevening': _nächti_ ['n&Xti].
[EMAIL PROTECTED]:
j. 'mach' wust
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 10
Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 16:41:01 -0700
From: "H. S. Teoh" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Conlangs of mischief (Was: Re: I'm back!)
On Fri, Sep 24, 2004 at 02:35:35AM +0200, Rodlox wrote:
[...]
> can you get archived messages from the relay list? that might give you a
> hint. :)
I can browse through the archives on the listserv. What keywords
should I search for? :-)
> > I'll start: there is no distinction between 2nd and 3rd person in
> > Ebis�dian. This is wonderfully destructive in relays involving
> > conversations (although we haven't had one like that yet---which may
> > be a good thing, depending on your POV). Let's see Metes beat that.
>
> no word order.
Sorry, Ebis�dian has no word order either. In fact, it's much worse
than that. It doesn't require any category of word (verb, noun, etc.)
to be present in a sentence. A sentence consisting wholly of nouns is
perfectly grammatical, as is a sentence consisting wholly of verbs. A
sentence with both verbs and nouns is allowed to omit any of its
nouns without changing the verb. (I.e., not like English, where you
must have a subject for every verb unless you change the verb into a
passive.)
Keep 'em comin'! ;-)
T
--
People walk. Computers run.
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 11
Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 20:08:51 +0000
From: Robert Hill <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Conlangs of mischief (Was: Re: I'm back!)
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1
On Thursday 23 September 2004 23:41, H. S. Teoh wrote:
>
> Keep 'em comin'! ;-)
Beh, 4d conworlds are confusing enough for me, Teoh. Just throw a hypersphere.
- --
- -----------------------------------------------
The CONLANG-IRC Server: priscilla.ath.cx #conlang
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.2.6 (GNU/Linux)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=aQXj
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 12
Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 20:09:45 EDT
From: David Peterson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Conlangs of mischief (Was: Re: I'm back!)
Teoh wrote:
<<Keep 'em comin'! ;-)>>
How about this: Metes appears to have no grammar or parts
of speech of any kind whatsoever. I was the one who had to
try to decipher the text. It also appears that all utterances are
just one long word (if I understood the hyphens right). Take
a look at the Metes text, and how I translated it:
Metes:
http://steen.free.fr/relay10/metes.html
Epiq:
http://steen.free.fr/relay10/epiq.html
In particular, look at the Rodlox's smooth translation of his own
text, and my smooth translation of my translation of his text.
But, yes, having no word order is no problem. My first conlang
had no word order, and there's *allegedly* a language in a Australia
that doesn't even have a preferential word order. What matters is
whether or not all the arguments are marked.
-David
*******************************************************************
"sunly eleSkarez ygralleryf ydZZixelje je ox2mejze."
"No eternal reward will forgive us now for wasting the dawn."
-Jim Morrison
http://dedalvs.free.fr/
[This message contained attachments]
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 13
Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 20:15:18 EDT
From: David Peterson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Example Usage (Re: Conlang Flag: Results Are In!)
Just thought I'd post to show some examples of how I used the
flag:
http://dedalvs.free.fr/kele/
http://dedalvs.free.fr/x/
http://dedalvs.free.fr/sheli/
I thought of using the flag as the background in the little box
that says, "This conlang site belongs to David J. Peterson", etc.,
but I couldn't get it to fit just right, and the lettering probably
wouldn't come out on every color scheme, so I gave up on it.
A question, though: Is someone going to host the official site for
the flag? 'Cause before I go to the trouble of putting it on every
one of my pages, it'd be nice if I could attach a url to it so that if
people look at the flag and think, "What is that? Cambodia? Thailand?
Tibet?", they can click on it and find out.
-David
*******************************************************************
"sunly eleSkarez ygralleryf ydZZixelje je ox2mejze."
"No eternal reward will forgive us now for wasting the dawn."
-Jim Morrison
http://dedalvs.free.fr/
[This message contained attachments]
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 14
Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 20:19:23 +0000
From: Robert Hill <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Word order (Was: Conlangs of mischief (Which in turn was: Re: I'm back!)
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1
On Friday 24 September 2004 00:09, David Peterson wrote:
> But, yes, having no word order is no problem. My first conlang
> had no word order, and there's *allegedly* a language in a Australia
> that doesn't even have a preferential word order. What matters is
> whether or not all the arguments are marked.
>
I am curious as to how many people actually have conlangs with no word order.
I tooled around with it for a while and eventually it got too stupid for me
to follow ;).
- --
- -----------------------------------------------
The CONLANG-IRC Server: priscilla.ath.cx #conlang
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.2.6 (GNU/Linux)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=tTJU
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 15
Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 18:48:06 -0600
From: Muke Tever <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Example Usage (Re: Conlang Flag: Results Are In!)
On Thu, 23 Sep 2004 20:15:18 EDT, David Peterson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Just thought I'd post to show some examples of how I used the
> flag:
>
> http://dedalvs.free.fr/kele/
> http://dedalvs.free.fr/x/
> http://dedalvs.free.fr/sheli/
>
> I thought of using the flag as the background in the little box
> that says, "This conlang site belongs to David J. Peterson", etc.,
> but I couldn't get it to fit just right, and the lettering probably
> wouldn't come out on every color scheme, so I gave up on it.
>
> A question, though: Is someone going to host the official site for
> the flag? 'Cause before I go to the trouble of putting it on every
> one of my pages, it'd be nice if I could attach a url to it so that if
> people look at the flag and think, "What is that? Cambodia? Thailand?
> Tibet?", they can click on it and find out.
I don't know about "official", but I put up an image and a quick description at:
http://wiki.frath.net/Conlang_flag
...it'd be good if someone who knows better could work on the description.
*Muke!
--
website: http://frath.net/
LiveJournal: http://kohath.livejournal.com/
deviantArt: http://kohath.deviantart.com/
FrathWiki, a conlang and conculture wiki:
http://wiki.frath.net/
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 16
Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 21:18:17 -0400
From: "Mark J. Reed" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: CHAT: day before yesterday
On Thu, Sep 23, 2004 at 12:24:32PM -0400, Mark J. Reed wrote:
> On Thu, Sep 23, 2004 at 06:02:05PM +0200, Philip Newton wrote:
> > What do your conlangs have? Anything more than "tomorrow" and "yesterday"?
>
> Not mine, obviously, but Klingon has ...
BTW, what I meant to be "obvious" was that Klingon is not my conlang,
not that my conlangs don't have anything more than "tomorrow" and
"yesterday". :)
-Marcos
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 17
Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 18:30:26 -0700
From: "H. S. Teoh" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Conlangs of mischief (Was: Re: I'm back!)
On Thu, Sep 23, 2004 at 08:08:51PM +0000, Robert Hill wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> On Thursday 23 September 2004 23:41, H. S. Teoh wrote:
>
> >
> > Keep 'em comin'! ;-)
>
> Beh, 4d conworlds are confusing enough for me, Teoh. Just throw a
> hypersphere.
[...]
(Un)fortunately, the Ferochromon is not a 4D conworld. Actually, I
don't even know what to call it... it has several parts to it, the
tamest of which are the 3 sections that the Ebis�di live in, which are
approximately 3D Euclidean spaces. But even here, there are some
phenomena that can only happen if it's actually more than 3D. In other
words, unlike the well-behaved N-dimensional Euclidean spaces, the
Ferochromon is a very exotic, unusual place. It's not even
non-Euclidean space in the conventional sense (hyperbolic, parabolic,
spherical, etc.); it's a place where Terran geometrical methods are
only crude approximations.
I'd write more here, but this is grossly OT, so I won't continue
except off-list, and only if people are actually interested enough in
this crazy stuff to ask me.
T
--
English has the lovely word "defenestrate", meaning "to execute by throwing
someone out a window", or more recently "to remove Windows from a computer
and replace it with something useful". :-) -- John Cowan
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 18
Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 23:34:55 -0400
From: Michael Potter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Inventing names
Andreas Johansson wrote:
> Quoting Michael Potter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
>
>
>>(b) use simple, meaningless words that fit the phonotactics of your
>>language (like Frodo in _Lord of the Rings_)
>
>
> Actually, _Frodo_ is a "modification" of _Frothi_, a Germanic name which may
> mean "The Fruitful". Even if that interpretation should be false, there's good
> reasons to believe it originally meant something, since Germanic names normally
> do.
>
> Andreas
>
I knew I got something wrong. :P
I doubt that anybody cares, but I hate to spread false information.
Frodo does have a meaning, as you said. It was _Bilbo_ that had the
meaningless name. I had the wrong hobbit.
Sorry for the mistake.
--
Michael
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 19
Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 23:57:02 -0400
From: Roger Mills <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Inventing names
B.P.Jonsson wrote:
> Citerar Andreas Johansson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
>
> > Quoting Roger Mills <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
>
> > > Well that's logical... One of the oceans on Cindu is called _ro�e
> > > aros_
> > > 'eastern ocean', I suppose because it was the first ocean to be
> > > crossed,
> > > thanks to prevailing winds-- The Kash sailed east to go west, unlike
> > > poor
> > > misguided Columbus.
> >
> > In Colombus' defense, he had precious little ocean to cross to the east!
>
> Also in his defense most sea streams and wind belts on Earth go
> east-to-west. Cindu obviously rotates in the opposite direction
> to Earth, for whatever reason! ;)
>
It doesn't, it doesn't!! Aren't there areas in the tropics with
countervailing winds? Monsoon patterns?? Anyhow, the first Kash
circumnavigators sailed from their east coast.
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 20
Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 21:55:43 -0700
From: Elliott Lash <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Proto-Languages Question
Hello All,
Well, I have 4 main related languages, as some of you
may know: Classical Nindic, West Nindic (Hinession),
Silindion and Essamea. The entire family is called
Silinestic.
Classic Nindic and Hinession form what is known as
the Northern Nindic branch of Nindic a sub-branch of
Silinestic. The other language is South Nindic, which
forms the Southern Nindic branch.
Silindion and Essamea, along with two others,
Lannelka and South Silic (which are not so defined)
form the Silic sub-branch of Silinestic.
They all use the same roots and from them derive many
identical or similar words. The grammar of all the
languages is derived from the common source, but tends
to go in different directions, as you might suspect.
The problem I'm having is...knowing the grammar of all
the daughter's, I'm not too certain about what the
definitive grammar of Silinestic is. I'll give an
example, to hopefully show what I mean.
"He gave sharp swords and broad shields to the hero"
Hinession:
N� v�asan n�herchein nechver ha rhesein cas penos da
l�roeu
Cl. Nindic:
Ethed naw herch�n ethaen �bo rhedd cath noth i laerwy
Silindion:
Anel� kir�in sampi rondeimma kasta i lairohyanu
Essamea:
Nelsi kiree sikkie nee rendee kasta sinj�nu l�irej�
Without giving the interlinears for the daughters,
here is what should be reconstructed as the common
proto-languages:
Nindic:
*anta-ti: (o:) sjarski-j itt-ani: emopod roda-j kasta
give-pst (he) sword-pl bite-prp. and shield-pl broad
nods je la:jros-ja
unto the hero-pl
Silic:
*a-nel-si: kira-j-n sapni naj rodno-j-n kasta
AUG-give-pst sword-pl-AC sharp and shield-pl-ACC broad
je la:jros-ja=no:d
the hero-pl-to
The problem I'm having is how to relate the two
proto-languages into one common Silinestic. It seems
like the main differences between Silic and Nindic in
the stages given above are vocabulary based. So I'm
not sure what the original Silinestic vocabulary might
have been..at least in this case.
Anyways, what do you all think?
Elliott
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages!
http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 21
Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2004 07:29:48 +0200
From: Philip Newton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: CHAT: day before yesterday
On Thu, 23 Sep 2004 19:41:41 -0400, J. 'Mach' Wust
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Thu, 23 Sep 2004 18:02:05 +0200, Philip Newton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
>
> >German doesn't even have single words for "last/next week/month/year"
> >(and only a dialectal/regional word "heuer" for "this year").
>
> Additionally, there are dialects that have a word for 'last year': _f�rn_
> [f&:rn] (though this is already kind of old-fashioned). There are also words
> for 'tonight': _hinech_ ['[EMAIL PROTECTED] and 'yesterevening': _n�chti_ ['n&Xti].
Never heard any of these! But then, I'm pretty far north.
Interestingly, Greek also has words for those last two concepts: απόψε
= "tonight", (ε)ψές = "yesterevening".
Cheers,
--
Philip Newton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Watch the Reply-To!
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 22
Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2004 01:35:13 EDT
From: David Peterson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Proto-Languages Question
Elliott wrote:
<snip everything>
<<Anyways, what do you all think?>>
This looks far too advanced for me to complicate on specifics.
However, I'll offer this general advice, for what it's worth: The
good thing about proto-languages for conlangs is that you can
always create more! So if Nindic and Silic aren't close enough
together, why not create another level for one or both of them?
Or many more levels?
-David
*******************************************************************
"sunly eleSkarez ygralleryf ydZZixelje je ox2mejze."
"No eternal reward will forgive us now for wasting the dawn."
-Jim Morrison
http://dedalvs.free.fr/
[This message contained attachments]
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 23
Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 23:03:46 -0700
From: Leland Paul <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Conlang Flag: Results Are In!
Waaa... I'm honored. Variation on my design chosen... Of course, most
of the credit goes to the many who improved my design... But still.
It's an honor. :)
-Lee
On Thu, 23 Sep 2004 23:45:19 +0200, taliesin the storyteller
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> * Adrian Morgan (aka Flesh-eating Dragon) said on 2004-09-23 17:16:30 +0200
>
>
> > taliesin the storyteller wrote:
> >
> > > Simple: make a flag, with chosen ratio, in a vector-format, that way
> > > it is very easy to resize. Then anyone can resize it to a size that
> > > suits them.
> >
> > I'm not aware of the existence of vector formats that are both
> > suitable and widely available, but I'm willing to be educated in the
> > matter ...
>
> Not to use on webpages (though there .svg might/should eventually work)
> but as a storage format. There are lots of *programs* that can handle
> vector graphics (like coreldraw to pick a windows program), and if we
> ever publish a book with the flag, they're much preferred by
> professional printing places (also the t-shirt-printing kind). This way
> it could be converted to the desired size by the end-user instead of
> having lots of almost equal variants floating around.
>
> As for ratios, I vote for the golden mean throughout.
>
>
> t.
>
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 24
Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2004 15:35:45 +0930
From: "Adrian Morgan (aka Flesh-eating Dragon)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Conlang Flag: Results Are In!
**********************************************************************
* Notice: As far as I'm concerned, my role in facilitating the *
* selection of the Conlang Flag is now over, and I have deleted the *
* pages and images that had to do with the selection process. *
* However, see below. *
**********************************************************************
Christian Thalmann wrote:
> I've uploaded various sizes here:
> http://www.cinga.ch/art/conflag/final/
I've incorporated the flag onto my main Conlang page:
http://web.netyp.com/member/dragon/create/language/create_language.htm
[Yes, I'm well aware that there's a broken image in the corner of the
page; that's a leftover from the previous layout of my site, before I
realised that I didn't have time to maintain it, but today *all* I'm
doing is adding the flag, and all other fixes are more work than I
care to take on for now. Lots of things need an overhaul, including
the conlang itself, and I hope some day I'll get to them.]
I want to add that I think seven layers is right for the tower,
because IIRC in numerology seven is often associated with perfection,
which kind of fits (although not with anything I've created :-S).
I still think 420/260 would be a good size, but I won't insist on it.
Dan Saunders wrote:
> Having joined the list after the discussion of a conlang flag, i
> should very much like to see the flags that lost out of curiosity
> mostly. btw, i think the flag that won is amazingly well-done; the
> contrasting colors add very much to the overall aesthetics of.
Would you like people who have kept their own submissions to email a
copy to you?
Adrian.
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 25
Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2004 08:27:45 +0200
From: Andreas Johansson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Conlangs of mischief (Was: Re: I'm back!)
Quoting "H. S. Teoh" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> On Thu, Sep 23, 2004 at 11:02:56PM +0200, Rodlox wrote:
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: H. S. Teoh <
> > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Sent: Thursday, September 23, 2004 8:42 PM
> > Subject: Re: I'm back!
> [...]
> > > Darn, just when I thought Ebis�dian was the cause of all mischief. :-P
> > > :-P
> >
> > there's a new compeditor to Ebis(e)dian....and that's Metes.
> > :)
>
> Alright, bring it on. Let's see what mischief Metes can cause that
> Ebis�dian can't do worse. :-)
>
> I'll start: there is no distinction between 2nd and 3rd person in
> Ebis�dian. This is wonderfully destructive in relays involving
> conversations (although we haven't had one like that yet---which may
> be a good thing, depending on your POV). Let's see Metes beat that.
> ;-)
That's positively sane compared to Ilt�rer, which I had the honour to try and
decipher in my first relay, which restricts the use of the 3rd person pronoun
to inanimates, replacing it with the 2nd person one for animates.
Andreas
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links
<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/conlang/
<*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
<*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
------------------------------------------------------------------------
