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There are 25 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1. Re: Inventing names
From: Wesley Parish <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2. new Babel Text
From: Rodlox <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3. Khanga�yagon web presence expands.
From: Peter Bleackley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4. Re: Numbers from conlangs by Yan Kiraly.
From: Philip Newton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5. Re: Khanga�yagon web presence expands.
From: Christian Thalmann <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6. Re: I'm back!
From: Jan van Steenbergen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7. Re: Conlang Flag: Results Are In!
From: Arnt Richard Johansen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8. Re: Khanga�yagon web presence expands.
From: Peter Bleackley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9. Re: Conlang Flag: Results Are In!
From: "Adrian Morgan (aka Flesh-eating Dragon)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10. Re: Replying to Rodlox (Re: Spanish-related question ((q)SVO ?) and obliques)
From: "Thomas R. Wier" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11. Re: Number/Specificality/Archetypes in Language
From: "Thomas R. Wier" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12. Re: Basque Gender Marking (was Re: Further language development Q's)
From: "Thomas R. Wier" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13. CHAT: day before yesterday
From: Philip Newton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14. Re: CHAT: day before yesterday
From: "Mark J. Reed" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15. Re: Number/Specificality/Archetypes in Language
From: John Cowan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16. Re: Inventing names
From: Philip Newton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17. Re: Conlang Flag: Results Are In!
From: Philip Newton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18. Re: Conlang Flag: Results Are In!
From: Muke Tever <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19. Re: Conlang Flag: Results Are In!
From: Dan Saunders <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20. Re: Interesting thread on Ideolengua...
From: Matt Trinsic <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21. Re: I'm back!
From: Philip Newton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22. OOPs!! When is a class not a class? (Re: Number/Specificality/Archetypes in
Language)
From: Ray Brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23. Re: I'm back!
From: "H. S. Teoh" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24. Re: English sounds `v' and `w'
From: Adam Supercalifragilisticexpialidocious <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25. Re: I'm back!
From: Rodlox <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
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Message: 1
Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 23:44:28 +1200
From: Wesley Parish <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Inventing names
I've usually opened my big mouth, stuck my foot in, and scribbled down
whatever emerged ;)
No, actually, I've spent time on some names, the initial ones, to get a "tone"
for the person - "Vheratsho" was a long time coming, until I figured out it
was a strong-enough name for the character. "Praleyo" just happened, after I
dumped "Anders" as being too Scandinavian for Alpha Centauri. It's later
that I work my guts out trying to fit a language around them - I mean, what
does "Vheratsho" mean, and among whom? What does "Praleyo" mean, and among
whom?
Then once I've got the seed planted, I can work out that "Rakhzha" means
"Eater" as in someone who digests matters seriously, not a glutton, that xyz
means abc, etc.
Just some thoughts
Wesley Parish
On Wed, 22 Sep 2004 23:17, Carsten Becker wrote:
> Manisu! [ Be greeted!
> Sira ilt�yang nelnoin vaena! [ I need your help!
>
> Before I'm starting to work on a conworld I need names, I
> thought & decided. But how to come up with names? Shall I
> just make up (at least for now) random, meaningless names,
> or should I make up typical words that can appear in names
> (e.g. animals' names, gods' names, war, battle, rich, poor,
> nice, good, bad etc.)? Or shoudl I even mix both?! The
> problem with descriptive names, such as "Stormcloud" is
> that they're mostly at least trisyllabic and that way don't
> fit what I'm used to -- European names are rather short,
> only one or two syllables mostly. OTOH, when you're looking
> at Indian or generally SE-Asian names, three syllables are
> very short!
> Then there are the place names .. The same problem, the same
> question ... But descriptinve names are IMO normal, and
> many place names are polysyllabic, so this shouldn't be a
> that big problem. At last I could force my self to call the
> biggest ocean of the map of my conworld I've drawn some
> time ago "Rad�m Anana", which is Dal�ian for "The big
> ocean" (Ocean big.3sg), Ayeri would be sth like "Caron
> Nuc�rya" (Sea AGT.big).
>
> Cutanoea Caivo! [ With thanks!
> Carsten
>
>
> --
> Eri silvev�ng aibannama padangin.
> Nivaie evaenain eri ming silvoiev�ng caparei.
> - Antoine de Saint-Exup�ry, Le Petit Prince
> -> http://www.beckerscarsten.de/?conlang=ayeri
--
Wesley Parish
* * *
Clinersterton beademung - in all of love. RIP James Blish
* * *
Mau e ki, "He aha te mea nui?"
You ask, "What is the most important thing?"
Maku e ki, "He tangata, he tangata, he tangata."
I reply, "It is people, it is people, it is people."
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Message: 2
Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 17:01:26 +0200
From: Rodlox <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: new Babel Text
I just sent in the " *aiinodbus' " Babel Text (and given it [my conlang] a
new name - Sa-oh Ghikh "crafted word").
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Message: 3
Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 14:44:31 +0100
From: Peter Bleackley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Khanga�yagon web presence expands.
I've just added links from the conlang wiki page for Khanga�yagon
http://www.talideon.com/concultures/wiki/?doc=KhangathYagon
to the pages for Khanga�yagon relay entries. Please have a look, and feel
free to post your comments to the list - I'd like to here what people think
of it.
Pete
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Message: 4
Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 16:00:42 +0200
From: Philip Newton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Numbers from conlangs by Yan Kiraly.
> I'm collecting numbers from various systems in different languages.
> I politely ask you send me numbers from 1 to 10 in your conlangs.
I politely ask you to publish your list of numbers on the Internet so
that other people can read them, too!
On your web page, I have only found a list of names of languages, but
not the numbers themselves.
Cheers,
--
Philip Newton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Please watch the Reply-To!
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Message: 5
Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 14:17:09 -0000
From: Christian Thalmann <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Khanga�yagon web presence expands.
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Peter Bleackley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
> I've just added links from the conlang wiki page for Khanga�yagon
> http://www.talideon.com/concultures/wiki/?doc=KhangathYagon
> to the pages for Khanga�yagon relay entries. Please have a look, and
feel
> free to post your comments to the list - I'd like to here what
people think
> of it.
So you based the language on an actual undeciphered
inscription? You could join the LLL with it, then.
BTW, in the analysis of that sample sentence, you
speak of present participles where you actually mean
gerunds. It's a mistake quickly made for an English
speaker. ;-)
-- Christian Thalmann
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Message: 6
Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 15:00:30 +0100
From: Jan van Steenbergen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: I'm back!
--- H. S. Teoh skrzypszy:
> I've decided to return to the list after several months of nomail,
Welcome back! I've already been wondering where you had gone... We've
just finished a relay, and you most certainly were missed. Although
it is now officially proven that we don't need Ebisedian to
thoroughly f... eh, mangle a relay text!
> Anyway, to make this not-so-ontopic post short, I think the
> Ferochromon, the world of the Ebis�di, has just acquired a whole
> new dimension... literally!! :-)
Well, I'll anxiously wait to see that idea implemented!
> and rebuild Ebis�dian from scratch to go with it. Or perhaps I
> should discard the current conlang and start from scratch.
Aaargh! Don't say that kind of things... it's impolite! ;)
> There's light at the end of the tunnel. It's the oncoming train.
:))
Jan
=====
"If you think you are too small to make a difference, try sleeping in a closed room
with a mosquito."
Relay 10: http://steen.free.fr/relay10/
___________________________________________________________ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger -
all new features - even more fun! http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
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Message: 7
Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 16:55:04 +0200
From: Arnt Richard Johansen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Conlang Flag: Results Are In!
First of all, I would like to congratulate the winner. It was not my
favourite, but it looks kinda nice, and it could certainly have been much
worse -- just look at the Wikipedia logo.
On Thu, 23 Sep 2004, David Peterson wrote:
> (1) An official *real* flag size (i.e., flying on a flag pole);
> (2) An official ratio
I for one would like a real flag -- after all, that's what flag designs
are for. It sure would have been nice to have one when Taliesin and I met
up with Benct Philip in Gothenburg - although we discovered each other
kinda immediately.
While official ratios and a construction sheet are important if you want
to actually sew a flag, an official *size* is kinda overkill when it comes
to standardization -- after all, flags are meant to be easily made into
any size.
--
Arnt Richard Johansen http://arj.nvg.org/
I think it's fair to say that a lot of Hikawa's popularity is due to the
novelty factor of his youth; most male enka singers look like they've been
driving trucks up and down the Tomei Highway for 20 years while living on a
diet of ramen, shochu and shabu (speed). -Steve McClure
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Message: 8
Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 16:09:24 +0100
From: Peter Bleackley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Khanga�yagon web presence expands.
Staving Christian Thalmann:
>--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Peter Bleackley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>wrote:
> > I've just added links from the conlang wiki page for Khanga�yagon
> > http://www.talideon.com/concultures/wiki/?doc=KhangathYagon
> > to the pages for Khanga�yagon relay entries. Please have a look, and
>feel
> > free to post your comments to the list - I'd like to here what
>people think
> > of it.
>
>So you based the language on an actual undeciphered
>inscription? You could join the LLL with it, then.
Apart from the fact that it's meant to be spoken in a fantasy world.
>BTW, in the analysis of that sample sentence, you
>speak of present participles where you actually mean
>gerunds. It's a mistake quickly made for an English
>speaker. ;-)
It's actually more complex than that. For some words the PrP/gerund is
actually an agentive noun - whether this particular form means "act of
doing" or "one who does" is entirely lexical. There are also two different
forms for the affix, -on or -ont. Which is used is again lexical, and
doesn't correlate to what the meaning is.
In case you're wondering why I designed something that odd, it originally
happened by accident and I decided to keep it.
Pete
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Message: 9
Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2004 00:46:30 +0930
From: "Adrian Morgan (aka Flesh-eating Dragon)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Conlang Flag: Results Are In!
taliesin the storyteller wrote:
> Simple: make a flag, with chosen ratio, in a vector-format, that way
> it is very easy to resize. Then anyone can resize it to a size that
> suits them.
I'm not aware of the existence of vector formats that are both
suitable and widely available, but I'm willing to be educated in the
matter ...
Adrian.
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Message: 10
Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 10:24:00 -0500
From: "Thomas R. Wier" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Replying to Rodlox (Re: Spanish-related question ((q)SVO ?) and obliques)
Rodlox wrote:
> <<out of curiosity...what is an oblique?>>
>
> An example from English:
>
> "I ate a hot dog."
>
> Both "I' and "a hot dog" are core arguments of the verb "ate".
> If you passivize it, though...
>
> "A hot dog was eaten (by me)."
>
> ...only "a hot dog" is a core argument. "By me" is now considered
> an oblique--that is, it is *not* a core argument of the verb.
Well, sorta. The term 'oblique' is not terribly well-defined
in the literature. Some people use the term only for arguments
alligned with particular thematic roles which have some explicit case or
adposition, while others use it (like in this example) use it for what
are more precisely adjuncts alligned with a particular thematic role
(adjuncts being phrases which are not arguments, and are optional).
Generally, in underived contexts, obliques are usually alligned with
a noncore role, like location or theme or experiencer, and not with
agent or patient. But this example shows that sometimes people use
for agent, too, and presumably for patient in antipassive constructions.
==========================================================================
Thomas Wier "I find it useful to meet my subjects personally,
Dept. of Linguistics because our secret police don't get it right
University of Chicago half the time." -- octogenarian Sheikh Zayed of
1010 E. 59th Street Abu Dhabi, to a French reporter.
Chicago, IL 60637
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Message: 11
Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 10:23:54 -0500
From: "Thomas R. Wier" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Number/Specificality/Archetypes in Language
From: John Leland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> << "The
> United States of America *is*" >>
> I believe Shelby Foote or some pundit on the Civil War TV series said that
> the normal usage before the Civil War was "The United States are"
He did indeed. Which just goes to show that number agreement in
English cannot be purely determined based on either semantics or
morphology, since more recent American English has changed in this
respect. It's possible that all lexical items may simply lexically
specify what "number" they are, and failure to agree is simply a
feature-clash, i.e., there is no trigger or controller of agreement.
==========================================================================
Thomas Wier "I find it useful to meet my subjects personally,
Dept. of Linguistics because our secret police don't get it right
University of Chicago half the time." -- octogenarian Sheikh Zayed of
1010 E. 59th Street Abu Dhabi, to a French reporter.
Chicago, IL 60637
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Message: 12
Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 10:24:09 -0500
From: "Thomas R. Wier" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Basque Gender Marking (was Re: Further language development Q's)
From: Tamas Racsko <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Chris Bates wrote:
> > I don't think even Inuit can beat this level of agreement lol...
I assume by agreement you mean TAM markers.
> I am not aware of Inuit grammar, but polysynthetical languages
> may have additional slots for further case agreement.
If we include all the sorts of specific modal or quasimodal markers
in Inuit, I would say (based on Chris's description, since my knowledge
of Basques is not great) that Inuit far exceeds Basque. The following
is typical:
Inuttut isikkoqalertarsimasut
person appearance-have-begin-HAB-PERF=PART/3p
'Perhaps, they said, they took on human appearance when they died'
Jerry Sadock tells me that these kinds of constructions are actually
proliferating with modernization in Greenland, since that's how all
the bureaucrats speak!
> I have an
> example from Sumerian where locative marking is involved in
> addition: |mu-na-ni-n-du-{}| 'he/she has built it there for
> him/her'; |mu| ventive modality: Actor is animate; |na| < |ra| -
> dative marker: sg3 animate Recipient; |ni| - locative marker; |n| -
> ergative and aspect marker: sg3 Actor from perfective (=hamtu)
> series; |du| - verbal stem: to build; |{}| (terminal zero morpheme)
> - absolutive marker: sg3 inanimate Patient.
I would be very wary about making any arguments from Sumerian.
Our understanding of its phonology and morphology are based
almost entirely on how Sumerian words borrowed into Akkadian
were pronounced, sometimes centuries after Sumerian ceased to
be spoken as a living language. It is therefore difficult if
not impossible to know whether these kinds of collocations that
you mention are not just cliticized forms, and we can therefore
not know whether to call Sumerian polysynthetic (to the extent
that that term has any real meaning).
Anyways, I agree with your general contention. Basque doesn't
seem weird by agreeing with so many arguments.
==========================================================================
Thomas Wier "I find it useful to meet my subjects personally,
Dept. of Linguistics because our secret police don't get it right
University of Chicago half the time." -- octogenarian Sheikh Zayed of
1010 E. 59th Street Abu Dhabi, to a French reporter.
Chicago, IL 60637
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Message: 13
Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 18:02:05 +0200
From: Philip Newton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: CHAT: day before yesterday
On Wed, 22 Sep 2004 11:20:25 +0200, Andreas Johansson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> * It's always annoyed me that English hasn't got a single word for "the day
> before yesterday", nor "the day after tomorrow". It still happens, as it did
> when I wrote this mail, that I get stuck trying to find the word before
> recalling it simply does not exist.
Indeed; those days are simply named "the day before yesterday" and
"the day after tomorrow", as you not.
Some languages, though, go one further and have a name for "three days
ago" and "in three days' time"; for example, Modern Greek has
αντιπρόπερσι for "three years ago", αντίπροχτες for "three days
ago",
and αντιμεθαύριο for "in three days" (but no single word for even
"next year", which it expresses with του χρόνου, literally something
like "of the year".)
German can make do with "vorvorgestern" and "�ber�bermorgen", though
neither is in common use.
Japanese has "shiasatte" (apparently the word for "four" - counting
todays as well, I suppose - plus the word for "day after tomorrow")
for "the day three days hence" and "sakiototoi/sakiototsui"
(apparently the word for "tip, point, previous, former" plus the word
for "day before yesterday") for "the day three days ago".
I'm not sure whether there are consistent ways of writing that in
kanji; any rendition will not map one-to-one to spoken syllables
anyway, just like the names for even "today" or "tomorrow" (I think
this sort of thing - reading a series of kanji purely by meaning,
without putting any particular syllable to a particular character - is
called "gikun"). JWPce gives 一昨昨日 for "sakiototoi/sakiototsui"
(compare 一昨日 for "ototoi/ototsui" -- sometimes also read Chinese-style
["on-yomi"] as "issakujitsu" -- and 昨日 for "kinou" = "yesterday" --
sometimes also read as "sakujitsu"; hm, 一昨昨日 is also given the on-yomi
"issakusakujitsu") and 明明後日 for "shiasatte" (compare 明後日 for "asatte"
-- sometimes also read "myougonichi" -- and 明日 for "asu/ashita" =
"tomorrow" -- sometimes also read "myounichi").
Japanese doesn't let you do this for, say, weeks or months or years,
though, which only have "last X" (senshuu/sengetsu/kyonen) and "next
X" (raishuu/raigetsu/rainen) as well as "X-before-last"
(sensenshuu/sensengetsu/ototoshi - look, separate word! though "year
before last" can apparently also be issakunen) and "X-after-next"
(saraishuu/saraigetsu/sarainen), but not "3 Xs ago/hence" in general,
though I found "sakiototoshi/issakusakunen" for "three years ago".
German doesn't even have single words for "last/next week/month/year"
(and only a dialectal/regional word "heuer" for "this year").
What do your conlangs have? Anything more than "tomorrow" and "yesterday"?
Cheers,
--
Philip Newton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Mind the Reply-To!
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Message: 14
Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 12:24:32 -0400
From: "Mark J. Reed" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: CHAT: day before yesterday
On Thu, Sep 23, 2004 at 06:02:05PM +0200, Philip Newton wrote:
> What do your conlangs have? Anything more than "tomorrow" and "yesterday"?
Not mine, obviously, but Klingon has productive suffixes for "days ago",
"days from now", "years ago", "years from now", etc., which can be
applied to any number. THe words for "tomorrow" and "yesterday" are
simply the appropriate suffixes applied to the number "one":
wa'Hu' = yesterday, wa'leS = tomorrow.
-Marcos
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Message: 15
Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 12:36:59 -0400
From: John Cowan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Number/Specificality/Archetypes in Language
Thomas R. Wier scripsit:
> He did indeed. Which just goes to show that number agreement in
> English cannot be purely determined based on either semantics or
> morphology, since more recent American English has changed in this
> respect.
I don't think this counts as evidence: the behavior of proper names is
always going to be lexically idiosyncratic, because some features are
sealed off whereas others bubble up. In the early days of the Union,
"the united states" was clearly not a name but a mere phrase, more often
applied to the united Netherlands than to us. Later it became a name
and got singular agreement; though legal documents can still speak of
"the United States or any of them", it feels profoundly weird to me,
much more so than ordinary archaism.
> It's possible that all lexical items may simply lexically
> specify what "number" they are, and failure to agree is simply a
> feature-clash, i.e., there is no trigger or controller of agreement.
That strikes me as wildly unlikely, unless you want to say that the
head of "dogs" is "-s". To my mind, claiming that American (at least)
English doesn't have syntactic agreement in number is like claiming that
it has grammatical gender on the grounds that ships, bells, countries
(sometimes), and a few other inanimates are called "she".
--
Henry S. Thompson said, / "Syntactic, structural, John Cowan
Value constraints we / Express on the fly." [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Simon St. Laurent: "Your / Incomprehensible http://www.reutershealth.com
Abracadabralike / schemas must die!" http://www.ccil.org/~cowan
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Message: 16
Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 18:46:42 +0200
From: Philip Newton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Inventing names
On Thu, 23 Sep 2004 08:42:55 +0200, Andreas Johansson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Tacking an -o (for
> masculine) or -a (for feminine) onto adjs is a popular way of forming names and
> nicknames in Tairezazh.
Ah! How original :)
I had to think of JBR's "Primer in SF Xenolinguistics" (
http://www.xibalba.demon.co.uk/jbr/lingo.html ); specifically, "Lesson
Five" under "Let's Speak Alien".
Cheers,
--
Philip Newton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Watch the Reply-To!
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Message: 17
Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 19:01:45 +0200
From: Philip Newton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Conlang Flag: Results Are In!
On Fri, 24 Sep 2004 00:46:30 +0930, Adrian Morgan (aka Flesh-eating
Dragon) <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> taliesin the storyteller wrote:
>
> > Simple: make a flag, with chosen ratio, in a vector-format, that way
> > it is very easy to resize. Then anyone can resize it to a size that
> > suits them.
>
> I'm not aware of the existence of vector formats that are both
> suitable and widely available, but I'm willing to be educated in the
> matter ...
Possibly EPS?
Other than that, though, I agree that vector formats appear to be a
pretty fragmented and proprietary little world.
Maybe SVG, though support for that still seems to be limited.
Cheers,
--
Philip Newton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Watch the Reply-To!
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Message: 18
Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 11:36:12 -0600
From: Muke Tever <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Conlang Flag: Results Are In!
On Thu, 23 Sep 2004 16:55:04 +0200, Arnt Richard Johansen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> First of all, I would like to congratulate the winner. It was not my
> favourite, but it looks kinda nice, and it could certainly have been much
> worse -- just look at the Wikipedia logo.
Of course, the Wikipedia logo went through a process rather like ours.
Apparently it's gone through at least three separate voting processes:
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Original_Wikipedia_logo_suggestions/leading_candidates
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/International_logo_vote/Finalists
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Final_logo_variants
I'm sure eventually whatever flag got voted in (I haven't gotten around to checking it
yet >_<) can be improved on later.
*Muke!
--
website: http://frath.net/
LiveJournal: http://kohath.livejournal.com/
deviantArt: http://kohath.deviantart.com/
FrathWiki, a conlang and conculture wiki:
http://wiki.frath.net/
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Message: 19
Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 13:46:05 EDT
From: Dan Saunders <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Conlang Flag: Results Are In!
Having joined the list after the discussion of a conlang flag, i should very
much like to see the flags that lost out of curiosity mostly. btw, i think
the flag that won is amazingly well-done; the contrasting colors add very
much to the overall aesthetics of.
-Dan
[This message contained attachments]
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Message: 20
Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 13:52:10 -0400
From: Matt Trinsic <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Interesting thread on Ideolengua...
> Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 18:01:27 -0400
> From: Roger Mills <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Subject: Interesting thread on Ideolengua...
>
> and a possible translation exercise to boot!
>
> If anyone has access to their archive (at yahoogroups), check out the most
> recent batch of messages beginning with subject "31 a�os del golpe en Chile
> (en 40 idiomas) from "Juan Blanco" (commemorating the anti-Allende coup of
> 9/11/73). As with many of our threads, this one quickly degenerated into a
> squabble about "dialect" vs. "language".
>
> Anyhow, 4 of the 40 sentences:
>
> Spanish - mucho m�s temprano que tarde, se abrir�n las grandes alamedas por
> donde pase el hombre libre, para construir una sociedad mejor.
>
> Basque - berandu baino lehen, hiribide handiak zabalduko dira, gizaki askeak
> hiribide horiek zeharkatuz gizarte berria sortu dezaten.
>
> Dutch - eerder vroeger dan later zullen er zich grote wegen openen die de
> vrije mens zal bewandelen om een betere samenleving op te bouwen.
>
> English - sooner rather than later the grand avenues will open and free
> people will pass to build a better society.
>
Wonderful timing, laux upyg has finally been reconstructed enough to
start working on translations again. Now just to learn a good gloss
method. Anyone have any comments on this attempt at a gloss?
avenue ADJ-grand will-open.FUTURE_IMPERFECT.PASSIVE ADJ-soon later
ADJ-not. person ADJ-free will-issue-from.FUTURE_IMPERFECT.MEDIATE
ADJPREP-desire building.PAST_IMPERFECT.ACTIVE society ADJ-increased it
dexot ucylub nonue'z ugocap gacab used raet uzaseb noe'f egyz je't joeb
uteb rud
[dIDut VTilUb [EMAIL PROTECTED] VguT&p g&T&b VsId r&It Vz&sIb nOEf Igiz jEt juIb
VtIb wVd]
~Trinsic~
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Message: 21
Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 20:31:06 +0200
From: Philip Newton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: I'm back!
On Tue, 21 Sep 2004 11:06:49 -0700, H. S. Teoh <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> and rebuild Ebis�dian from scratch to go with it.
Ah, please no! I'll second Jan on this.
> Or perhaps I should discard the current conlang
> and start from scratch. I have unfortunately lost interest in many of
> the little details I integrated into Ebis�dian, and I think I'd rather
> let it remain as it is, and start a new independent project.
That would be preferably.
I've grown a little attached to Ebisedian :) so rather than see it
changed radically, I'd prefer to have it simply remain as it is.
Cheers,
--
Philip Newton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Watch the Reply-To!
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Message: 22
Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 19:45:27 +0100
From: Ray Brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: OOPs!! When is a class not a class? (Re: Number/Specificality/Archetypes in
Language)
(Yes, I'm replying to myself!)
On Wednesday, September 22, 2004, at 08:23 , Ray Brown wrote:
> On Tuesday, September 21, 2004, at 09:32 , Philippe Caquant wrote:
[snip]
>> Yes, looks like that; yet I was very pleased to
>> discover that in JavaScript, the properties of an
>> object belonging to a class can be in contradiction
>> with the general class properties (the prototype ones,
>> if I got it right). As I understood it, if you refer
>> to an object's property, Javascript will first look
>> for an explicit property at the very object level; if
>> it doesn't find it there, it will look for it at the
>> prototype level;
>
> Yes, yes - and classes may be sub-classes of others.
>
> JavaScript has merely taken these ideas over from Java & they've been
> around in object-oriented programming (OOP) for a few decades.
OOPs!! Someone has informed me that JavaScript does *not* have the formal
notion of class in the sense that the term is used in OOP and in the way
that C++ and Java does. I must confess that my object-oriented programming
has been a little in C++ and quite a lot in Delphi and Java. So far I've
done _very_ little in JavaScript, so when Philippe mentioned objects and
classes in JavaScript, I assumed that the terms were being used in the
traditional OOP manner. I should have known better: other than a
resemblance in syntax, JavaScript has nothing to do with Java. (Darned
scripting languages :)
In fact, I discover the way JavaScript deals with objects is quite
different the classic OOP languages. It seems books on JavaScript are in
the habit of using the term 'class' informally for, as I understand it, a
set of objects sharing similar properties & methods. But - {blushes deeply}
- if I had stopped to think about it, Javascript could not have formal
classes because it is such a weakly typed language. (Darned scripting
languages :)
OK - Philippe, if your only experience of using objects is JavaScript,
maybe we had better not continue using the class ~ object analogy
otherwise we are very likely to be talking at cross-purposes, which won't
help anybody.
> But do understand that my analogy to OOP was not intended to relate to the
> Platonic ideas. I was using a different analogy to show that there are
> different ways of looking at these things. Taking different points of view
> can of course be confusing but it can also stimulate further thought.
Yep - and the Clausal Form Logic model adopted by Prolog is yet another
way of looking at things :)
Ray
===============================================
http://home.freeuk.com/ray.brown
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
===============================================
"They are evidently confusing science with technology."
UMBERTO ECO September, 2004
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Message: 23
Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 11:42:19 -0700
From: "H. S. Teoh" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: I'm back!
On Thu, Sep 23, 2004 at 03:00:30PM +0100, Jan van Steenbergen wrote:
> --- H. S. Teoh skrzypszy:
>
> > I've decided to return to the list after several months of nomail,
>
> Welcome back! I've already been wondering where you had gone... We've
> just finished a relay, and you most certainly were missed. Although
> it is now officially proven that we don't need Ebisedian to
> thoroughly f... eh, mangle a relay text!
Darn, just when I thought Ebis�dian was the cause of all mischief. :-P
:-P
> > Anyway, to make this not-so-ontopic post short, I think the
> > Ferochromon, the world of the Ebis�di, has just acquired a whole
> > new dimension... literally!! :-)
>
> Well, I'll anxiously wait to see that idea implemented!
Actually, I'm kinda changing my idea. I think I'll work on a new,
independent con-world instead. Some things in the Ebis�dian con-world
are just too hard to adapt to an Euclidean space, even if it's 4D!
> > and rebuild Ebis�dian from scratch to go with it. Or perhaps I
> > should discard the current conlang and start from scratch.
>
> Aaargh! Don't say that kind of things... it's impolite! ;)
Hehe, perhaps I shouldn't say "discard". The new conlang will just be
independent from Ebis�dian, that's what I meant. It's not like I'm
gonna delete the current Ebis�dian stuff or anything, y'know. :-)
Besides, I've already decided that the new con-world would be
completely independent of the Ferochromon. It would be (gasp) actually
Euclidean, for once! :-P
(Unless I feel particularly evil and decide to introduce Einsteinian
5D space-time to it... nah, I better not. There was this online guy
somewhere who once had this brilliant idea of writing a 1st person
shooter game that operated in 5D, with the 4th dimension indicated by
color and the 5th by time travel. Needless to say, the process of
trying to actually implement it twisted his brain into a 4D pretzel
and affected his mind in rather scary ways. I should not want to end
up like that![1])
([1] But having said that, I've to admit I *am* the kinda weirdo who
actually enjoys stuff like... this:
http://www.superliminal.com/cube/cube.htm
I highly suspect the process of creating Ebis�dian has already turned
my brain into a pretzel, although I still can't figure out if it's a
regular pretzel or a tetra-pretzel (i.e. a 4D pretzel). I haven't
tried tasting it yet, and something keeps telling me not to try. :-P)
> > There's light at the end of the tunnel. It's the oncoming train.
>
> :))
I told my roommate that that's one quote that really should go on
despair.com ... Maybe I should send it in as a suggestion. :-P
T
--
For every argument for something, there is always an equal and opposite
argument against it. Debates don't give answers, only wounded or inflated
egos.
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Message: 24
Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 15:25:19 EDT
From: Adam Supercalifragilisticexpialidocious <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: English sounds `v' and `w'
V is a labiodental fricative (I believe this is similar to the hindi v
although I'm afraid I don't speak hindi); W is an approximant, and it
is... I think the word is labio-velar. Pronouncing it, I raise the back
of my tongue so that there is only a small gap at the back of my mouth
(the velar bit), and also round my lips (the labio-bit). Having said
that, a bilabial approximant is a good approximation to w. :) As far as
I know, there is no difference between American and British English when
it comes to the pronounciation of v and w.
This might be a bad suggestion, but if you're trying to get w right you
might try pronouncing /u/ (I assume hindi has this sound?) and then
shortening it as much as possible... in some languages (the romance
languages spring to mind), u has become similar to an english w in some
positions in words, and if I try pronouncing /uest/ for west and then
shortening the /u/ as much as possible it gets to the point where it
sounds almost exactly like west is normally pronounced to me. :)
Labiovelar? I was always told that labiovelar is the soft "w" and the
bilabial is the hard "w." Maybe it's just different for Michigan as it is for you.
:o
[This message contained attachments]
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Message: 25
Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 23:02:56 +0200
From: Rodlox <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: I'm back!
----- Original Message -----
From: H. S. Teoh <
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, September 23, 2004 8:42 PM
Subject: Re: I'm back!
> On Thu, Sep 23, 2004 at 03:00:30PM +0100, Jan van Steenbergen wrote:
> > --- H. S. Teoh skrzypszy:
> >
> > > I've decided to return to the list after several months of nomail,
> >
> > Welcome back! I've already been wondering where you had gone... We've
> > just finished a relay, and you most certainly were missed. Although
> > it is now officially proven that we don't need Ebisedian to
> > thoroughly f... eh, mangle a relay text!
>
> Darn, just when I thought Ebis�dian was the cause of all mischief. :-P
> :-P
there's a new compeditor to Ebis(e)dian....and that's Metes.
:)
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