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There are 25 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1. Sound shift question
From: Henrik Theiling <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2. Re: Possible base-20 numeric system
From: Chris Bates <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3. Re: Possible base-20 numeric system
From: "Mark J. Reed" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4. LLL Weekly Update #16/2004
From: J�rg Rhiemeier <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5. Re: [langdev] Animacy in Sohlob
From: "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6. My 500th post! The Babel Text in Old Albic
From: J�rg Rhiemeier <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7. Re: Question about word-initial velar nasal
From: Doug Dee <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8. Re: Animacy in Sohlob
From: Doug Dee <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9. Re: Possible base-20 numeric system
From: Sally Caves <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10. Re: Animacy in Sohlob
From: Benct Philip Jonsson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11. Re: Question about word-final velar nasal
From: J�rg Rhiemeier <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12. Re: Question about word-initial velar nasal
From: Chris Bates <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13. Re: Possible base-20 numeric system
From: caeruleancentaur <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14. Usage: " Handbook" was Re: Question about word-initial velar nasal
From: Doug Dee <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15. Re: English Usage: "THEY"
From: Steg Belsky <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16. Re: My 500th post! The Babel Text in Old Albic
From: Henrik Theiling <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17. Re: Conlang Apologetics
From: Jeffrey Henning <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18. TECH: #conlang at priscilla.ath.cx
From: Carsten Becker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19. Re: Question about word-final velar nasal
From: Carsten Becker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20. Re: Volition in Anohim
From: bob thornton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21. Senyecan nouns
From: caeruleancentaur <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22. Re: Possible base-20 numeric system
From: Danny Wier <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23. Re: Anybody on AIM
From: Paul Bennett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24. Re: Sound shift question
From: Danny Wier <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25. Re: Sound shift question
From: Henrik Theiling <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
________________________________________________________________________
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Message: 1
Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2004 17:18:12 +0200
From: Henrik Theiling <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Sound shift question
Hi!
In a language that has /t, k, q, ts, kx, qX/ and /t_>, k_>, q_>/, how
do you like the following sound shift that gets rid of the ejectives:
/t_>/ > */t?/ > */th/ > /tx/ or /tX/
/k_>/ > */k?/ > */kh/ > /ks/
/q_>/ > */q?/ > */qh/ > /qT/
I don't want a collapse of phonemes, but want to get rid of ejectives
(because I cannot pronounce them well but in isolation). Further, I
like a /qT/ pattern and I also like the idea of having some kind of
phonetic anti-symmetry in plosive + fricative clusters.
But anyway, do you have other thoughts?
Any suggestions?
Bye,
Henrik
--
------------------------------ Dr. Henrik Theiling -------------
Tel: +49 681 83183 04 AbsInt Angewandte Informatik GmbH
Fax: +49 681 83183 20 Stuhlsatzenhausweg 69
http://www.AbsInt.com/ D-66123 Saarbruecken
Encrypted e-mail preferred. Private: http://www.theiling.de/
0x9E314CA5 FA 1C 02 C9 58 04 57 6E 53 9C DF 94 B4 45 AE 24
________________________________________________________________________
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Message: 2
Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2004 16:30:03 +0100
From: Chris Bates <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Possible base-20 numeric system
>
>> No, wrong, you have a bizarre dual-base system. Each of the quoted
>> should be 20 more than its predecessor. In the next "place", each would
>> be 20*20=400 more than its predecessor.
>> Also, you must (well, should) only have one name for each integer, but
>> you have:
>> ket�s-tis = kolt�s (assuming hyphens add the two numbers)
>
>
> Dual-base systems are bizarre? Systems using 20x5 are not that uncommon;
> Welsh, Danish, French (for 60 and 80) and Georgian are just a few that do
> such.
And Basque!
hamar ten
hogei twenty
hogeitahamar (20 & 10) thirty
berrogei (2x20) fourty
berrogeitahamar (2x20 & 10) fifty
hirurogei (3x20) sixty
hirurogeitahamar (3x20 & 10) seventy
laurogei (4x20) eighty
laurogeitahamar (4x20 + 10) ninety
ehun 100
mila 1000
The one thing is, this can generate some quite long numbers:
hirurogeitahamazortzi
/irurogeitamasortsi/
hiru-hogei-eta-hamar-zortzi
3-20-and-10-8
seventy eight
That's 8 syllables in Basque versus 4 in English.
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Message: 3
Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2004 11:58:18 -0400
From: "Mark J. Reed" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Possible base-20 numeric system
On Sun, Oct 24, 2004 at 04:30:03PM +0100, Chris Bates wrote:
> >Dual-base systems are bizarre? Systems using 20x5 are not that uncommon;
> >Welsh, Danish, French (for 60 and 80) and Georgian are just a few that do
> >such.
>
> And Basque!
Let's not forget that English has a mixed-base system, too. The
non-decimal words are used mostly in specialized contexts these days,
but were once ubiquitous: dozen (12), score (20), gross (12x12) . . .
-Marcos
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Message: 4
Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2004 18:39:19 +0200
From: J�rg Rhiemeier <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: LLL Weekly Update #16/2004
Hallo!
Here's the latest news from the League of Lost Languages.
In the first part of the week, the last weekend's discussion about
how a 17th-century grammarian would describe an ergative language
carried on, then the list fell silent again.
Greetings,
J�rg.
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Message: 5
Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2004 12:28:24 -0400
From: "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [langdev] Animacy in Sohlob
BPJ asks:
>Can anyone suggest more possibly animate categories, preferably with
>explanation why they would be considered animate?
Machines, vehicles.
Because they appear to move on their own.
- Jeffrey
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Message: 6
Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2004 18:41:28 +0200
From: J�rg Rhiemeier <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: My 500th post! The Babel Text in Old Albic
Hallo!
This is my 500th post to CONLANG, and on this occasion I'd like to
present you the Babel text in Old Albic.
Here it is:
Am Barad Babelas
1. Mar ahara cvanthas Aramaras sam ta�emas a sam cvararemas.
2. S� heinsi amana austarana, apheni phalas ndoras Senararas
a aveni tathas.
3. A acvessi ranana: Ha techiemi vi tacelim a mbestiemi tethim.
A adareri tacelim phar �nti a smach phar terchi a acvessi:
4. Ha beriemi vi caras a barad am racoa emi tili Nabom
am chverniemir vi �gom narna daphalyhi vim cvanemana ndoremarana.
5. Hal anarhaisa o Hero am terasa am caras a am barad
im abareri i cvastehini,
6. a acvassa o Hero: Tera, hara sam pholemas a sam ta�emas semas,
a hara san am hajas chvararemas semaremas.
Sal hara nachvarad nan sena amas cvanas
amas hastareri chvaras tathas.
7. Ha nuhejimi a he�iemi ta� semas am na nalestiri rim.
8. Ha adatharera o Hero emana ndoremana cvanemana
am handeri baras amas cararas.
9. Ha �gomara am caras Babel
car aha�ara o Hero ta� emas ndoremas cvanemas,
a adatharera emana ndoremana cvanemana.
Interlinear:
Am Barad Babelas
the:I-OBJ tower-OBJ Babel-LOC
1. Mar ahara cvanthas Aramaras
1. but AOR-be-3SG:P whole-LOC world-LOC-LOC
sam ta�emas a sam cvararemas.
one-OBJ language-PL-LOC and one-OBJ speech-PL-LOC
2. S� heinsi amana austarana,
2. as move-IMPF-3PL:A the:I-ALL east-ALL
apheni phalas ndoras Senararas
AOR-find-3PL:A plain-OBJ land-LOC Senar-LOC-LOC
a aveni tathas.
and AOR-dwell-3PL:P 3I:SG-LOC
3. A acvessi ranana:
3. and AOR-speak-3PL:A each.other-DAT
Ha techiemi vi tacelim
so mould-SUBJ-3SG:P-1PL:A 1PL.IN-AGT brick-PL-OBJ
a mbestiemi tethim.
and bake-SUBJ-3SG:P-1PL:A 3I:PL-OBJ
A adareri tacelim phar �nti
and AOR-use-3SG:P-3PL:A brick-PL-OBJ for stone-INST
a smach phar terchi
and tar-OBJ for mortar-INST
a acvessi:
and AOR-speak-3PL:A
4. Ha beriemi vi caras a barad
4. so build-SUBJ-3SG:P-1PL:A 1PL.IN-AGT city-OBJ and tower-OBJ
am racoa emi tili Nabom
REL-PL-OBJ reach-FUT-3SG:P the:I-INST tip-INST heaven-OBJ
am chverniemir vi �gom
that make-COND-3SG:P-1PL:A-M 1PLIN-AGT name-OBJ
narna daphalyhi vim
lest disperse-FUT-1PL:P 1PL.IN-OBJ
cvanemana ndoremarana.
all-ALL land-PL-LOC-ALL
5. Hal anarhaisa o Hero
5. then AOR-down-go-3SG:A the:M-AGT lord-AGT
am terasa am caras a am barad
that see-3SG:P-3SG:A the:I-OBJ city-OBJ and the:I-OBJ tower-OBJ
im abareri i cvastehini,
REL-PL-OBJ AOR-build-3SG:P-3PL:A the:PL-AGT human-child-PL-AGT
6. a acvassa o Hero:
6. and AOR-speak-3SG:A the:M-AGT lord-AGT
Tera, hara sam pholemas
see-IMP be-3SG:P one-OBJ people-PL-LOC
a sam ta�emas semas,
and one-OBJ language-PL-LOC 3A:PL-LOC
a hara san am hajas chvararemas semaremas.
and be-3SG:P this-OBJ the:I-OBJ begin-OBJ do-VN-PL-LOC
3A:PL-LOC-PL-LOC
Sal hara nachvarad nan sena
now be-3SG:P impossible-OBJ nothing-OBJ 3A:PL-DAT
amas cvanas
the:I-PL-LOC everything-LOC
amas hastareri chvaras tathas.
REL-LOC plan-3SG:P-3PL:A do-VN-OBJ 3I:SG-LOC
7. Ha nuhejimi
7. so descend-SUBJ-1PL:A
a he�iemi ta� semas
and confuse-SUBJ-3SG:P-1PL:A language-OBJ 3A:PL-LOC
am na nalestiri rim.
that not understand-3PL:P-3PL:A each.other-OBJ
8. Ha adatharera o Hero
8. thus AOR-disperse-3PL:P-3SG:A the:M-AGT lord-AGT
emana ndoremana cvanemana
the:I-PL-ALL land-PL-ALL all-PL-ALL
am handeri baras amas cararas.
that cease-3SG:P-3PL:A build-VN-OBJ I-LOC city-LOC
9. Ha �gomara am caras Babel
9. thus name-3SG:P the:I-OBJ city-OBJ Babel
car aha�ara o Hero
because AOR-confuse-3SG:P-3SG:A the:M-AGT lord-AGT
ta� emas ndoremas cvanemas,
language-OBJ the:I-PL-LOC land-PL-LOC all-PL-LOC
a adatharera
and AOR-disperse-3PL:P-3SG:A
emana ndoremana cvanemana.
the:I-PL-ALL land-PL-ALL all-PL-ALL
Abbreviations:
1 first person
2 second person
3 third person
A agent agreement
AGT agentive case
ALL allative case
AOR aorist
COND conditional
DAT dative case
FUT future
I inanimate
IMPF imperfect
IN inclusive
INST instrumental case
LOC locative case
M middle voice
M masculine
OBJ objective case
P patient agreement
PL plural
REL relative
SG singular
SUBJ subjunctive
VN verbal noun
Vocabulary:
Aram world
austar east
bar- to build
barad tower
caras city
cvan- all
cvanth- whole
cvas- to speak
cvaras speech
cvasta human
cvastahena human-child
chvar- to make, to do
chvaras deed (VN of chvar-)
daphal- to disperse
darar- to use
dathar- to disperse
hai- to move
hand- to cease
has- to be
hastar- to plan
hena child
hero lord
mbast- to bake
Nabo heaven
nachvarad impossible
nalast- to understand
narna lest
ndor land
nuhai- to descend
�gom name
�gomar- to name
phalas plain
phola people
phan- to find
rac- to reach
ran each other
s� as
smach tar
tacal brick
tach- to mould
ta� tongue, language
tarch mortar
ter- to see, to look at
til tip
van- to dwell
Comments? Undeserved praise?
Greetings,
J�rg.
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Message: 7
Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2004 12:30:29 EDT
From: Doug Dee <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Question about word-initial velar nasal
In a message dated 10/23/2004 9:17:26 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
>Incidentally, what languages _do_ allow /N/ initally? Offhand, I can
>only think of Vietnamese and Tibetan, and it's a tricky thing to look
>up.
Australian Aboriginal languages generally seem to allow word-iniital /N/.
(I say this on the basis of a glance through _Australian Languages_ by RMW
Dixon and vols 4&5 of _The Handbook of Australian Languages_ ed. by Dixon &
Blake.)
Doug
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Message: 8
Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2004 12:38:14 EDT
From: Doug Dee <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Animacy in Sohlob
In a message dated 10/24/2004 7:21:19 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
>Other candidate categories for animacy are:
>-- Spirits and gods (naturally).
>-- Heavenly bodies (these are gods to the speakers!)
>-- Fire.
>-- Water.
>-- Weather phenomena.
>-- Metals (the only more odd category that has suggested itself to me.)
>Can anyone suggest more possibly animate categories, preferably with
>explanation why they would be considered animate?
How abut plants that can turn to face the sun?
You already have "heavenly bodies," but I'll mention that I read that these
are grammatically animate in some North American languages beacuse they move
without evident external cause (and not because they are necessarily viewed as
divine).
Body parts of humans and animals are a possibility.
I have a conlang in which books are grammatically animate, on the grounds
that books are capable of using language and thus belong in the class with people.
Doug
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Message: 9
Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2004 12:48:56 -0400
From: Sally Caves <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Possible base-20 numeric system
As Danny remarks below, Welsh and French use a "bizarre" base-twenty system
of counting that is Celtic in origin.
One, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten, one on ten, two
on ten, three on ten, four on ten, fifteen (pymtheg, an older version of
"five and/with ten"?), one on fifteen, two on fifteen (un ar bymtheg, dau ar
bymtheg), two nines, four on fifteen, twenty (ugain). There, we just
counted in traditional Welsh. Then, for twenty through forty, you repeat.
One on twenty, two on twenty, three on twenty, etc, fifteen on twenty
(35)... Fifty is "half hundred" (hanner cant).
I find French counting (I lived and learned in Switzerland which switched to
a decimal system) similarly bizarre, and have never fully mastered it. In
Geneva we said septante instead of soixante-dix; octante instead of
quatre-vingts (four twenties: pedwair ugain in Welsh), and nonante instead
of the hugely cumbersome quatre-vingts-dix. They do this, IIRC, in Belgium,
too. I'll admit to having an admiration for the quaint Gallic and Cymric
mixed-base structure (the fifteen, for instance in Welsh), and sort of
lament the simplifications (Welsh has simplified its numbers too: un deg
pump for 15; tri deg for 30 instead of deg ar hugain); so I hope that Danny
can make something even more fiendish than Welsh and French base-twenty
counting.
However, I'm confused. I thought Simon's remarks were in response to
Trebor's post about a base-twenty counting system. Does Trebor have the
same aims that Danny does?
Sally
----- Original Message -----
From: "Danny Wier" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Sunday, October 24, 2004 7:42 AM
Subject: Re: Possible base-20 numeric system
> From: "Simon Richard Clarkstone"
>
>> No, wrong, you have a bizarre dual-base system. Each of the quoted
>> should be 20 more than its predecessor. In the next "place", each would
>> be 20*20=400 more than its predecessor.
>> Also, you must (well, should) only have one name for each integer, but
>> you have:
>> ket�s-tis = kolt�s (assuming hyphens add the two numbers)
Danny:
> Dual-base systems are bizarre? Systems using 20x5 are not that uncommon;
> Welsh, Danish, French (for 60 and 80) and Georgian are just a few that do
> such.
>
> And what about Sumerian and Akkadian? Base 60 is inevitably dual-base,
> since
> you can't square an integer and get 60.
>
> I want something that's insanely mixed-base, using 10, 12, 20 or 60
> depending on whatever.
>
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Message: 10
Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2004 19:21:11 +0200
From: Benct Philip Jonsson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Animacy in Sohlob
Doug Dee wrote:
> In a message dated 10/24/2004 7:21:19 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
>
>>Other candidate categories for animacy are:
>
>
>>-- Spirits and gods (naturally).
>>-- Heavenly bodies (these are gods to the speakers!)
>>-- Fire.
>>-- Water.
>>-- Weather phenomena.
>>-- Metals (the only more odd category that has suggested itself to me.)
>
>
>>Can anyone suggest more possibly animate categories, preferably with
>>explanation why they would be considered animate?
>
>
> How abut plants that can turn to face the sun?
I'm undecided on that, for the personal reason that the Buddha
teaches that plants are insentient.
> You already have "heavenly bodies," but I'll mention that I read that these
> are grammatically animate in some North American languages beacuse they move
> without evident external cause (and not because they are necessarily viewed as
> divine).
That's why they are seen as divine by the Sohlesjn!
> Body parts of humans and animals are a possibility.
Yes, definitely.
> I have a conlang in which books are grammatically animate, on the grounds
> that books are capable of using language and thus belong in the class with people.
Excellent idea! So "I read in the book" would be "The book.ERG says
to me.DAT..."?
>
> Doug
>
>
--
/BP 8^)
--
Benct Philip Jonsson -- melroch at melroch dot se
Solitudinem faciunt pacem appellant!
(Tacitus)
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Message: 11
Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2004 20:06:04 +0200
From: J�rg Rhiemeier <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Question about word-final velar nasal
Hallo!
On Thu, 21 Oct 2004 14:27:39 -0500,
Danny Wier <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> This is a natlang/histlang/theory question, the answer of which may affect
> the development of my conlang.
Welcome back, Danny! How is Tech going?
> I've noticed that a lot of languages that have /N/ in their inventories do
> not allow it word-initially.
This is true. Old Albic, however, has some words with initial /N/,
but not many.
> This is the case for languages and branches
> with the velar nasal that belong to families that lack it: Germanic within
> Indo-European is a famous case. Altaic might have *N; I don't remember, but
> most of the Turkic and Mongolian languages have /N/; a lot of Turkic
> languages (not Anatolian or Azeri) have -ng as a frequent grammatical
> suffix.
>
> So what causes the development of word- or syllable-final nasals in these
> situations, and why no initial cases? Unless it happens because of a loss of
> /g/ or /k/ after /n/ or /m/, it seems like a weakening of the final nasal.
Well, the most common source of /N/ seem to be changes like
/ng/ > /Ng/ > /N/. And many, many languages do not allow initial
nasal-stop clusters.
> And why is Japanese (unassimilated) syllable-final /N/ uvular?
It isn't, or if it is, it is so only in some dialects. Judging from
the Japanese I have heard, it is nasalization of the vowel rather
than a coda segment, uvular or otherwise.
Greetings,
J�rg.
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Message: 12
Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2004 18:56:23 +0100
From: Chris Bates <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Question about word-initial velar nasal
Its called a handbook and its volumes!?!? Isn't the whole idea that a
handbook is something you can hold in your hand? Something handy?
>Australian Aboriginal languages generally seem to allow word-iniital /N/.
>(I say this on the basis of a glance through _Australian Languages_ by RMW
>Dixon and vols 4&5 of _The Handbook of Australian Languages_ ed. by Dixon &
>Blake.)
>
>Doug
>
>
>
>
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Message: 13
Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2004 18:02:26 -0000
From: caeruleancentaur <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Possible base-20 numeric system
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], "Mark J. Reed" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
On Sun, Oct 24, 2004 at 04:30:03PM +0100, Chris Bates wrote:
> >Dual-base systems are bizarre? Systems using 20x5 are not that
uncommon;
> >Welsh, Danish, French (for 60 and 80) and Georgian are just a few
that do
> >such.
>
> And Basque!
>>Let's not forget that English has a mixed-base system, too. The
>>non-decimal words are used mostly in specialized contexts these
days,
>>but were once ubiquitous: dozen (12), score (20), gross
(12x12) . . .
-Marcos
The Senyecan numbering system is a bit weird.
There are words for the numbers 1 - 10, and words for twenty,
hundred, and thousand. Hundred and thousand are nouns and the items
numbered are in the genitive: 200 ships = n��us�si d�oo
cemt�ni (of
ships two hundreds). Thousand = yh�slon. Million =
yh�sl�yhesl�ni.
I haven't learned the higher numbers yet.
All compounds are made by simply juxtaposing the numbers required
without a co-ordinating conjunction: 11 = d�tsem �i. 23 =
wic�mti
tir.
The formation of the tens is the weird part. They alternate between
decimal and vigesmal!
30 = tird�tsem
40 = d��wic�mti
50 = p�nc��d�tsem
60 = t�rwic�mti
70 = s�ft�d�tsem
80 = c��turwic�mti
90 = n�und�tsem
There are symbols for use in base 10 and symbols for use in base 20.
I have not done any work with the base 20 symbols. I have enough
trouble thinking in base 10!
Charlie
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Message: 14
Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2004 14:09:30 EDT
From: Doug Dee <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Usage: " Handbook" was Re: Question about word-initial velar nasal
In a message dated 10/24/2004 1:52:41 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
>Its called a handbook and its volumes!?!? Isn't the whole idea that a
>handbook is something you can hold in your hand? Something handy?
There seem to be a great many multi-volume "handbooks." I think I mentioned
on an earlier occasion the Smithsonian's 20-volume _Handbook of North American
Indians_.
I think it was the Germans who started the practice of writing huge
multi-volume scholarly works and calling the result a "Handbuch."
Doug
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Message: 15
Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2004 21:16:24 +0200
From: Steg Belsky <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: English Usage: "THEY"
On Oct 21, 2004, at 12:03 AM, Matt Trinsic wrote:
> grins* And as "they" continues is march to general use as a 3rd person
> singular epicene, we are going to need a replacement for 3rd person
> plural. How about "theys"? Does anyone else have an idea what could be
> used, or will "they" simply take on both roles? =)
> ~Trinsic~
I remember someone here once came up with an idea for a future English
in which the third-person epicene plural pronoun descended from "them
all".
-Stephen (Steg)
"You know, I rather like this God fellow.
Very theatrical, you know.
Pestilence here, a plague there.
Omnipotence ... gotta get me some of that."
~ stewie griffin, _family guy_
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Message: 16
Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2004 21:59:19 +0200
From: Henrik Theiling <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: My 500th post! The Babel Text in Old Albic
Hi!
J�rg Rhiemeier <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> This is my 500th post to CONLANG, and on this occasion I'd like to
> present you the Babel text in Old Albic.
Congratulations! :-)
>...
> 1. Mar ahara cvanthas Aramaras
> 1. but AOR-be-3SG:P whole-LOC world-LOC-LOC
Why suffixaufnahme in 'Aramaras'?
> sam ta�emas a sam cvararemas.
> one-OBJ language-PL-LOC and one-OBJ speech-PL-LOC
Hmm, I don't seem to understand the structure of the sentence. Why
LOC with 'language' and 'speech'?
Ah, maybe 'to have' = 'be with' = 'be' + LOC? (Like Finnish?
'Ja kaikessa maassa oli yksi kieli ja yksi puheenparsi')
Is that right?
>...
> apheni phalas ndoras Senararas
> AOR-find-3PL:A plain-OBJ land-LOC Senar-LOC-LOC
>...
Hmm, at this point, I'm really lost with 'Seneraras'.
Should be an apposition to 'ndoras'.
Please explain, it's interesting! :-)
**Henrik
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Message: 17
Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2004 16:05:32 -0400
From: Jeffrey Henning <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Conlang Apologetics
Thanks to everyone for suggesting links for "conlang apologetics". I'll be
maintaining them here:
http://www.langmaker.com/db/rsc_index_resourcetype.htm#Apologetic
- Jeffrey
P.S. I left out the Artlang Rant, arguing for naturalism, since it wasn't
justifying conlanging but rather proposing different schools of conlanging.
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Message: 18
Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2004 22:11:50 +0200
From: Carsten Becker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: TECH: #conlang at priscilla.ath.cx
Hey!
I cannot connect to our #conlang channel on priscilla.ath.cx. "/server
priscilla.ath.cx -j #conlang" does not work anymore. Why?
Thanks,
Carsten
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Message: 19
Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2004 16:35:03 -0400
From: Carsten Becker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Question about word-final velar nasal
Hey!
On Sun, 24 Oct 2004 20:06:04 +0200, J�rg Rhiemeier wrote:
>> And why is Japanese (unassimilated) syllable-final /N/ uvular?
>
>It isn't, or if it is, it is so only in some dialects. Judging from
>the Japanese I have heard, it is nasalization of the vowel rather
>than a coda segment, uvular or otherwise.
>
>Greetings,
>
>J�rg.
And what is the strange /N/ sound one can hear on the Tagalog example from
unilang.org? Search for "Sonidos del Mundo", it's hidden on this site
somewhere. Otherwise, use Google to get to that page.
However, that /N/ in the recording does not sound velar to me. It's further
back as it seems -- uvular?
Thanks,
Carsten
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Message: 20
Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2004 13:51:17 -0700
From: bob thornton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Volition in Anohim
--- Sally Caves <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> You know I can't leave this message alone! :)
> Volition is the meat and
> drink of the active Teonim. I'm still making
> mistakes in it.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "bob thornton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
>
> > The nature of volition in Anohim is very
> complicated.
>
> This sounds like a response to a question, Bob. Did
> I miss a thread that
> was called something else and developed into a
> discussion of volitionality?
No, I just accost the list with Anohim occasionally.
> > Whether a motion is voluntary or involuntary is
> always
> > marked. Several verbs, mainly of transference are
> also
> > always marked. Kill is considered a motive verb.
>
> It is in Teonaht, too, but where the form of the
> word impedes (like lis
> (get) or den (tell), one can always tell from the
> article whether the
> subject is v or nv. So Teonaht has a peculiar kind
> of active system, one
> that has a volitional S along with a volitional V.
> Many of the verbs are
> ambivolitional (where the meaning changes), whereas
> as some are always
> volitional, others always non-volitional. So in
> some cases it is the
> subject that determines volitionality, and in other
> cases the verb. But
> both S and V have to be marked in some way.
Question: What are S and V here?
>
> > Volition sometimes changes the meaning of the
> word.
> > Get/take and kill/die are two volition pairs.
>
> Lisned, bettairem in Teonaht: get/take. A subject
> with lis is the passive
> recipient of action, and lisned is often used to
> express what we call the
> "passive": aid bikar(em) eton-li lis. "The tree
> gets its chopping." There
> is a different word for "receive" that is
> volitional, since one can refuse
> to receive something.
>
> However, I don't see kill/die as a volitional pair
> so much as a
> subject/recipient pair. One can die at the hands of
> one who kills. One can
> die in one's bed. One can commit suicide. I've
> also noted that idioms in
> language don't necessarily have to make sense to us
> in our first language.
> But it sort of feels like making get/give a
> volitional pair. Do you see
> what I mean? Get/take I understand. In Teonaht,
> conceivably, one can kill
> by accident as in manslaughter. It's an important
> legal verb.
Ah, yes. That makes sense. I hadn't thought of that.
>
> Here are some verbs that are always volitional:
>
> say, talk, do, give, make, go, come, allow, decide,
> attack, read, write,
> chase, conquer, promise, command, doff, don,
> clothe, feed, cook, eat,
> drink, love, hate, prefer, holler, spit, pray,
> convict, berate, and a host
> of others.
>
> Here are some verbs that are always non-volitional:
>
> be, exist, be ignorant of, be absent, be present, be
> happy, sad, blue,
> fiery, stupid and a bunch of other stative verbs in
> T; get, sleep, fall
> asleep, wake up, sicken, vomit, bleed, die, dream,
> have (inalienable),
> beware, trip, fall down, etc.
>
> The ambivolitional verbs cover the senses, of
> course, and cognition:
>
> hear/listen to; see/watch or look at; smell/sniff;
> feel/touch or caress;
> taste/lick; know of/find out about; perceive/test
> etc.
>
> But the ambivolitional verbs, I find, as I write
> more and more in Teonaht,
> are a much bigger category than those verbs that are
> only one or the other:
>
> cry (in response to)/mourn;
> laugh (at a joke)/deride or make light of
> dislike/hate (to the point of malice)
> like/prefer
> stand (as a tree does)/stand up or take a stand
> lie (as a log does)/lie down, lie low
> follow (as a shadow does)/pursue
> live (breathe)/dwell
> breathe/draw breath
> bounce/rebound actively, return with renewed vigor
> die passively/commit suicide
> walk (as a clock or any machine part does)/walk
> somewhere
> stop/cease purposely
> sit (as a spoon does)/sit down
> rest (out of fatigue)/rest deliberately
> speed up (as a ball does rolling down a hill/hasten
> think (wandering thoughts)/contemplate
> be ignorant of/ignore
> believe (blindly)/believe something you've given
> thought to
> misspeak/lie
> make a mistake/be in wilful error
> defecate (shit one's pants)/defecate on will
> urinate (piss oneself)/urinate, relieve oneself
> etc.
>
> Then:
> boil (as water does)/boil something in a pot
> freeze (as water does)/freeze something
> heat up (as anger does)/heat someone up
> drown (as a swimmer does)/immerse
> end (as a play does)/put an end to
>
> (here we are getting into states and creating
> states, and these AV
> verbs are usually distinguished by
> intransitivity/transitivity. There is
> also a suffix (-ma) that turns an adjective or a
> nonvolitional intransitive
> into a volitional transitive:
Hrrrm... I might just ste-... borrow this.
>
> worry/make worried
> anger/make angered
> cool/make cold
> bleed/make bleed
> vomit/make vomit
> sleep/put to sleep
> put to sleep (because you are boring)/put to
> sleep (actively hypnotize)
> etc.
>
> > Voluntary actions are marked with a rising tone
> and
> > the prefix a- /?&/-
> >
> > Involuntary actions are marked with a falling tone
> and
> > the prefix i- /?I/-
>
> Do I detect a sense of hierarchy expressed by rising
> and falling tone? The
> Teonim, little elitests and warriors that they are,
> definitely privilege the
> agents over the experiencers. This attitude is
> challenged, though, in some
> contemplative practices where the experiencer is
> superior to the agent, the
> visionary superior to the false prophet.
Er, I don't have any sort of conculture yet, which has
caused many problems creating vocabulary.
>
> > The tone is marked on the root, not the prefixes.
> >
> > EX1:
> >
> > I died (recently) (involuntarily)
>
> Who's speaking?? Ghosts cannot use volitional verbs
> in Teonaht, nor can the
> Deity use non-volitional verbs, although the writers
> cheat by combining the
> non-volitional subject with a volitional verb. This
> is necessary to
> maintain semantic coherence in story-telling and
> religious instruction.
It was just an example. I hadn't anything in
particular in mind except expressing volition.
-The Sock
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Message: 21
Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2004 21:51:11 -0000
From: caeruleancentaur <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Senyecan nouns
Senyecan nouns are of two genders, animate and animate. The animate
definite article is s-; the inanimate definite article is t-.
There are six classes of nouns, one for each of the vowels. They are
always listed in the Senyecan alphabetical order, i.e., i, e, a, o,
�, u.
The i-class contains the names of living plants.
The e-class contains the names of living animals.
The a-class contains abstract nouns.
The o-class contains perceptible things.
The �-class contains composite creatures, e.g., the centaur.
The u-class contains loquent beings.
Many words can change their meaning by putting them in a different
class, e.g., mh�cen = cow, but mh�con = beef. hy�sten = arm
as long
as it is connected to the body. Once amputated, it is hy�ston.
In the e-class are included several natural phenomena which are
considered alive, to wit, sun, moon, star, sea, ocean, fire, any type
of flowing water, any type of wind.
The a-class also contains the words �man, mother, and �pan, father.
The o-class contains words that denote anything that can be
perceived, i.e., seen, heard, felt, smelt, or tasted. Admittedly,
the distinction between abstract and concrete is often close.
There are a few composite creatures not considered so in Senyecan.
The flying horse comes to mind. But composite creatures like the
centaur, minotaur, satyr, sphinx, griffin, etc., belong in the �-
class.
The u-class contains all words that denote anything that can speak.
This includes the six peoples (about which more later) and names of
the divinity. The dragon, tsem�lun, is also in this class.
There are four cases for these nouns. Until I can do further
research I've decided to stick to the traditional names: vocative,
nominative, genitive, and accusative. I list the vocative first
since it is an unmarked case. The nominative ending is -n, the
genitive -s, the accusative -m. The plural is indicated by adding -i
to the singular forms.
Adjectives follow the same patterns and agree with their nouns in
number, case, and declension, whether attributive or predicative.
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Message: 22
Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2004 17:06:20 -0500
From: Danny Wier <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Possible base-20 numeric system
From: "Andreas Johansson"
[in reply to me]
>> And what about Sumerian and Akkadian? Base 60 is inevitably dual-base,
>> since
>> you can't square an integer and get 60.
>
> Eh? How is it any more inevitably dual-base than base 10? It's not like
> there's
> an integer that squares to ten either.
Yeah, good point... I meant that you have to mix either 10 and 6 or 20 and 3
(I forget which one). With full-decimal languages like English, Arabic,
Spanish, Russian, etc. it's 10x10x10, and 100, unlike 60, is the square of
10.
But even base 60 repeats ad infinitum: 60, 3600, 216000...
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Message: 23
Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2004 18:09:27 -0400
From: Paul Bennett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Anybody on AIM
On Fri, 22 Oct 2004 19:01:15 +0200, Benct Philip Jonsson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
> Is anybody on this list also on AIM --
> and in the CET time zone would be nice!
In addition to being a week behind with the list (I finally found gainful
employment), I am also on AIM. Well, kinda. I can connect with both Gaim
and the official AIM tool, and it seems as though the connection completes
and I'm online, but I don't see any of my buddies as online, and nobody
sees me as online. It's a conundrum. The user ID is "darthspacey", just in
case I ever get it working, and I'm in the US Eastern timezone, which is
GMT -5 (-6 in the summer).
Paul
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Message: 24
Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2004 17:14:57 -0500
From: Danny Wier <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Sound shift question
From: "Henrik Theiling"
> Hi!
>
> In a language that has /t, k, q, ts, kx, qX/ and /t_>, k_>, q_>/, how
> do you like the following sound shift that gets rid of the ejectives:
>
> /t_>/ > */t?/ > */th/ > /tx/ or /tX/
> /k_>/ > */k?/ > */kh/ > /ks/
> /q_>/ > */q?/ > */qh/ > /qT/
You mean /qX)/ right? And I'm glad you included that infamous Klingon
affricate too! (This is not sarcasm; see my previous post about inverted
exclamation marks and how I use them for sarcasm.)
Or are you talking about affricates or sequences of two consonants?
> Any suggestions?
I'd imagine the NON-ejective stops would become affricates, not the
ejectives, because in languages with ejectives, the voiceless, non-ejective
stops/affricates are aspirated.
And yes, ejectives are tough for the uninitiated. A trick I found to be
effective is to also pronounce the stop/affricate as 'half-voiced', not
exaggerating the glottalization, and being careful not to add any
aspiration. For non-ejective voiceless stops/affricates, I make extra care
to ADD aspiration, even word-medially, without exaggerating.
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Message: 25
Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2004 00:43:02 +0200
From: Henrik Theiling <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Sound shift question
Hi!
Danny Wier <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> From: "Henrik Theiling"
>...
> > /t_>/ > */t?/ > */th/ > /tx/ or /tX/
> > /k_>/ > */k?/ > */kh/ > /ks/
> > /q_>/ > */q?/ > */qh/ > /qT/
>
> You mean /qX)/ right?
No, I really meant /qT/. It is in contrast with /qX)/, which is
already present in the inventory. Because I wanted no collapse, I
decided to have articulation at different places instead of
homorganic.
I encountered [qT] in Tamaziqth (which allows almost all sequences of
consonants...). 'water pipe' is [T&fqvOqT] in the dialect I heard (no
idea about phonemes in that language). The name of the language had
[XT], which I also liked: [T&m&"zIXT].
The question is: is a sound change that avoids collision by using
different places of articulation feasible? Or what other
possibilities exist?
> And I'm glad you included that infamous Klingon affricate too! (This
> is not sarcasm; see my previous post about inverted exclamation
> marks and how I use them for sarcasm.)
:-)) It is in included already! :-) I like uvular sounds a lot!
Infamous?? Why?
> Or are you talking about affricates or sequences of two consonants?
The latter. The former is already present in the inventory.
> > Any suggestions?
>
> I'd imagine the NON-ejective stops would become affricates, not the
> ejectives, because in languages with ejectives, the voiceless, non-ejective
> stops/affricates are aspirated.
Ah, ok. And the ejectives could move to plain? Would have the same
effect to the inventory, but maybe more reasonably.
> And yes, ejectives are tough for the uninitiated. A trick I found to
> be effective is to also pronounce the stop/affricate as
> 'half-voiced', not exaggerating the glottalization, and being
> careful not to add any aspiration.
Hmhm, indeed, this sounds well as I try it. Better than before. :-)
My main problem was a voiceless lateral click with ejective release,
which I could not pronounce well even after *a lot* of attempts. This
is not solved by your hints, I think. It seems that three places of
articulation (lateral click + velar stop + glottal closure) to care
about at the same time (I am not used to this in my native tongue...)
are simply too much for me. I decided that the ejectives are the hard
part of it, as I have problems distinguishing them when speaking and
listening. So I want to throw them out of S7 to be able to read texts
aloud.
**Henrik
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