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There are 22 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1. Re: Senyecan nouns
From: Doug Dee <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2. Fantastic new sounds
From: Estel Telcontar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3. Re: Possible base-20 numeric system
From: Tim May <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4. Re: TECH: #conlang at priscilla.ath.cx
From: Robert Hill <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5. Re: Senyecan nouns
From: caeruleancentaur <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6. OT: LiveJournal (was Re: Fantastic new sounds)
From: Philip Newton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7. CHAT: A Webcomic
From: Steg Belsky <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8. Re: Senyecan nouns
From: Philip Newton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9. Re: Question about word-initial velar nasal
From: Ray Brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10. Re: Possible base-20 numeric system
From: Andreas Johansson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11. Re: Senyecan nouns
From: caeruleancentaur <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12. Re: Animacy in Sohlob
From: "Thomas R. Wier" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13. WHERE IS BENCT PHILIP JONSSON
From: janko gorenc <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14. Re: Sound shift question
From: "Thomas R. Wier" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15. Re: LiveJournal (was Re: Fantastic new sounds)
From: Sally Caves <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16. Re: Question about word-initial velar nasal
From: "Douglas Koller, Latin & French" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17. Re: Possible base-20 numeric system
From: Danny Wier <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18. Re: OT: LiveJournal (was Re: Fantastic new sounds)
From: Stephen Mulraney <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19. Re: LiveJournal (was Re: Fantastic new sounds)
From: Danny Wier <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20. Re: LiveJournal (was Re: Fantastic new sounds)
From: "Mark J. Reed" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21. Re: LiveJournal (was Re: Fantastic new sounds)
From: Stephen Mulraney <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22. Re: OT: LiveJournal (was Re: Fantastic new sounds)
From: Estel Telcontar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
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Message: 1
Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2004 19:20:28 EDT
From: Doug Dee <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Senyecan nouns
In a message dated 10/24/2004 5:51:53 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
>The nominative ending is -n, the
>genitive -s, the accusative -m.
Genitive -s and accusative -m have an Indo-European look to them. (I'm
thinking of what I know of Latin, for example.) Is there an intentional connection?
>Adjectives follow the same patterns and agree with their nouns in
>number, case, and declension, whether attributive or predicative
Usually adjectives are said to agree in "gender" rather than "declension."
Can you give some examples of nouns with adjectives agreeing with them?
Doug
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Message: 2
Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2004 02:35:06 +0200
From: Estel Telcontar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Fantastic new sounds
I discovered a couple fantastic new sounds on Friday that I would like
to share; the description of my discovery is here:
http://www.livejournal.com/users/tungol/46582.html
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Message: 3
Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2004 01:35:20 +0100
From: Tim May <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Possible base-20 numeric system
Danny Wier wrote at 2004-10-24 06:42:28 (-0500)
> From: "Simon Richard Clarkstone"
>
> > No, wrong, you have a bizarre dual-base system. Each of the
> > quoted should be 20 more than its predecessor. In the next
> > "place", each would be 20*20=400 more than its predecessor.
> > Also, you must (well, should) only have one name for each integer, but
> > you have:
> > ket�s-tis = kolt�s (assuming hyphens add the two numbers)
>
> Dual-base systems are bizarre? Systems using 20x5 are not that
> uncommon; Welsh, Danish, French (for 60 and 80) and Georgian are
> just a few that do such.
>
Incidentally, there's a rather nice description of the number systems
of 60 different languages (several of them with mixed bases) here:
http://www.sf.airnet.ne.jp/~ts/language/number.html
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Message: 4
Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2004 20:53:59 -0400
From: Robert Hill <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: TECH: #conlang at priscilla.ath.cx
Hello,
Yes, i have been having trouble in the past few days. Someone had turned
off my server, but rest assured, it is back up ;). Its been kinda dead, I
reccomend that you guys drop by to say hey to us :).
Yours Truly,
Robert Hill
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Message: 5
Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2004 02:46:44 -0000
From: caeruleancentaur <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Senyecan nouns
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Doug Dee <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
In a message dated 10/24/2004 5:51:53 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
>The nominative ending is -n, the
>genitive -s, the accusative -m.
>>Genitive -s and accusative -m have an Indo-European look to them.
(I'm
>>thinking of what I know of Latin, for example.) Is there an
>>intentional connection?
Thank you for asking. Senyecan purports to be the first language in
my conculture. The area of the conculture is the Ukrainian and
Russian steppes bound by the Urals on the east and the Caucasus on
the south, sometime between the eruption of the supervolcano Mt. Toba
in Sumatra (72,000 B.P.) and the last Ice Age. Senyecan after a time
evolves into Proto-Indo-European.
>Adjectives follow the same patterns and agree with their nouns in
>number, case, and declension, whether attributive or predicative.
>>Usually adjectives are said to agree in "gender" rather
>>than "declension."
>>Can you give some examples of nouns with adjectives agreeing with
>>them?
i-class, e-class, �-class and u-class nouns are animate. a-class
and
o-class nouns are inanimate, so there can't be gender agreement. The
adj. must instead agree in declension.
the white horse = sen �len �ts�en in the nom.
the white rock = ton �lon �ndon in the nom.
the white horse = sem �lem �ts�em in the acc.
the white rock = tom �lom �ndom in the acc.
the beautiful woman = sun m�ngun g��nun in the nom.
the beautiful oak = sin m�ngin p�rc�in in the nom.
the fierce centaur = s�n y��r�n mhir�ts��n
the fierce lion = sen y��ren l�ben
the broken oarpin = ton v�rdza�on t��lon
the broken rib = sen v�rdza�en r�v�en
You can see that the agreement of the adj. has nothing to do with the
gender (the animateness or inanimateness) of the noun, but with the
declension of the noun. The base of the definite article does agree
with the gender (s- for animate; t- for inanimate), but the endings
agree with the class.
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Message: 6
Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2004 06:39:33 +0200
From: Philip Newton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: OT: LiveJournal (was Re: Fantastic new sounds)
On Mon, 25 Oct 2004 02:35:06 +0200, Estel Telcontar
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I discovered a couple fantastic new sounds on Friday that I would like
> to share; the description of my discovery is here:
>
> http://www.livejournal.com/users/tungol/46582.html
Oh! <lj user="tungol"> is you? I never knew.
Who else has LiveJournal accounts? I know one or two have mentioned
them, but are there any others who'd like to crawl out of the woodwork
in an easily-identifiable thread?
I'm <lj user="pne">.
Cheers,
--
Philip Newton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Watch the Reply-To!
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Message: 7
Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2004 06:54:36 +0200
From: Steg Belsky <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: CHAT: A Webcomic
heyall,
my brother (former collaborator on the conlang ool-Nuziiferoi, and
co-creator of a number of old conworlds with me) sent me the following
link:
http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=176
i think it's funny.
:-D
-Stephen (Steg)
"the Goblin King discusses his lesson plans with NOBODY!!!"
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Message: 8
Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2004 06:43:55 +0200
From: Philip Newton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Senyecan nouns
On Sun, 24 Oct 2004 21:51:11 -0000, caeruleancentaur
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> There are six classes of nouns, one for each of the vowels.
Which is the thematic vowel? Is it always the last vowel of the stem?
Or the one following the accent? Or which? (I assume that � � � � �
mark the stress accent in words rather than, say, quantity or quality
of the vowel.)
> The plural is indicated by adding -i to the singular forms.
Before or after the case markers?
Cheers,
--
Philip Newton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Watch the Reply-To!
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Message: 9
Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2004 06:49:17 +0100
From: Ray Brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Question about word-initial velar nasal
On Sunday, October 24, 2004, at 12:38 , Danny Wier wrote:
> From: "Tim May"
[snip]
>> Incidentally, what languages _do_ allow /N/ initally? Offhand, I can
>> only think of Vietnamese and Tibetan, and it's a tricky thing to look
>> up.
>
> Some of these have already been mentioned by others, so pardon the
> redundancy. These I know for sure:
>
> Albanian, and I have no idea how that happened.
> Celtic languages (Breton, Welsh, Irish and Scots Gaelic), but as a result
> of
> nasal mutation of initial velar stops.
> Vietnamese
> Tagalog and other Philippine languages
> Samoyedic languages like Nganasan (as the name implies)
Swahili has already been mentioned; Luo (a Nilotic language spoken in
Uganda & Kenya) also has initial /N/. I believe initial /N/ is not
uncommon in Subsaharan African langs.
Maori & Samoan certainly have initial /N/; IIRC this is common in the
Polynesian langs.
[snip]
> Apparently I will never escape my obsession with phonology.
Understandable :)
Ray
===============================================
http://home.freeuk.com/ray.brown
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
===============================================
Anything is possible in the fabulous Celtic twilight,
which is not so much a twilight of the gods
as of the reason." [JRRT, "English and Welsh" ]
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Message: 10
Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2004 09:10:41 +0200
From: Andreas Johansson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Possible base-20 numeric system
Quoting Danny Wier <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> From: "Andreas Johansson"
>
> [in reply to me]
>
> >> And what about Sumerian and Akkadian? Base 60 is inevitably dual-base,
> >> since
> >> you can't square an integer and get 60.
> >
> > Eh? How is it any more inevitably dual-base than base 10? It's not like
> > there's
> > an integer that squares to ten either.
>
> Yeah, good point... I meant that you have to mix either 10 and 6 or 20 and 3
> (I forget which one). With full-decimal languages like English, Arabic,
> Spanish, Russian, etc. it's 10x10x10, and 100, unlike 60, is the square of
> 10.
It would be a load on memory, but there's no reason in principle you couldn't
have unanalyzable atomic words for 0-59 just like we've got for 0-9 in decimal.
Andreas
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Message: 11
Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2004 10:32:39 -0000
From: caeruleancentaur <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Senyecan nouns
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Philip Newton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
On Sun, 24 Oct 2004 21:51:11 -0000, caeruleancentaur
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> There are six classes of nouns, one for each of the vowels.
>>Which is the thematic vowel? Is it always the last vowel of the
>>stem? Or the one following the accent? Or which?
The thematic vowel is the one of the ending. I analyze the noun as a
root + a class ending, e.g., v�c- + -on (flame). The class ending
does not play a part in forming compounds; only the root does. e.g.,
v�c- + dz��n-on = voxdz��non (beacon, lit., flame signal)
with the
requisite lenition before the affricate "dz."
>>(I assume that � � � � � mark the stress accent in
words rather
>>than, say, quantity or quality of the vowel.)
The accents mark pitch, acute for primary pitch, grave for secondary
pitch, e.g., naa�son (boat) + -aagun (person involved) =
n��us��gun
(sailor). There is one primary pitch in each word of two or more
syllables. There are as many secondary pitches as necessary, the
primary pitches of prefixed words becoming secondary in the compound
word, e.g., b�d��p�stenm��sen (yellow-breasted field
mouse).
The primary pitch is, with a few regular exceptions, on the
penultimate. The pitch is relative with each speaker. As he learns
to speak, each speaker discovers his own pitches, which will change
with maturity. The listener quickly discovers the levels of the
three pitches of the speaker.
>>The plural is indicated by adding -i to the singular forms. Before
>>or after the case markers?
After, e.g., b�d��p�stenmuus�ni (yellow-breasted field mice). Notice
the change in the placing of the accent to keep it on the penultimate.
�t�wam d�eyam tudz�se!
your day enjoy.
Charlie
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Message: 12
Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2004 07:27:29 -0500
From: "Thomas R. Wier" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Animacy in Sohlob
From: Benct Philip Jonsson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> But this means that I have to decide what is animate! Just
> humans (*if* the speakers are human, which I haven't decided)
> and animals is too bland and too scientific for my taste.
> Other candidate categories for animacy are:
>
> -- Spirits and gods (naturally).
> -- Heavenly bodies (these are gods to the speakers!)
> -- Fire.
> -- Water.
> -- Weather phenomena.
> -- Metals (the only more odd category that has suggested itself to me.)
>
> Can anyone suggest more possibly animate categories, preferably with
> explanation why they would be considered animate?
Meskwaki (like other Algonquian languages) has grammatical gender
distinctions between animate and inanimate nouns. For the most part,
gender is predictable: human beings, animals, and spirits fall into
the animate category, while objects and abstractions fall into the
inanimate category, with the latter serving as the elsewhere-category.
However:
-- most nouns denoting body parts are inanimate, but some are
animate: 'feather', 'blood clot', 'horn, braid', 'kidney'
are all animate. There is a tendency for body-parts higher
up on the body to be animate.
-- any ritual objects, or anything remotely connected to ritual
discourse, is likely to become grammatically animate: 'drum',
'tobacco', 'pipe', 'red ochre', 'sacred story', 'kettle with
lid', 'sacred bundle' are all unexpectedly animate.
-- nouns for plants are mostly inanimate (e.g. ahte:himini
'strawberry'), but some are animate (e.g. wi:tawi:ha 'raspberry')
-- some manufactured items are animate (mehte:ha 'bow'), others
are inanimate (ma:tesi 'knife')
-- skins of large animals are inanimate, while skins of small
animals are animate. [sic]
-- the words for 'doll' (ni:ca:pa) and 'corpse, ghost' (ci:paya)
are both animate.
So, there is much room for manipulation of the class of animates.
==========================================================================
Thomas Wier "I find it useful to meet my subjects personally,
Dept. of Linguistics because our secret police don't get it right
University of Chicago half the time." -- octogenarian Sheikh Zayed of
1010 E. 59th Street Abu Dhabi, to a French reporter.
Chicago, IL 60637
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Message: 13
Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2004 05:37:46 -0700
From: janko gorenc <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: WHERE IS BENCT PHILIP JONSSON
Hi all on this list,
To mister BENCT PHILIP JONSSON sent already a lot of messages with request if perhaps
has numbers to which of his Conlangs.
Write him already two years. However me is to today still didn't answer.
Ask if me simply not wants to reply or he doesn't have time.
Janko Gorenc
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail Address AutoComplete - You start. We finish.
[This message contained attachments]
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Message: 14
Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2004 07:45:11 -0500
From: "Thomas R. Wier" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Sound shift question
From: Henrik Theiling <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> In a language that has /t, k, q, ts, kx, qX/ and /t_>, k_>, q_>/, how
> do you like the following sound shift that gets rid of the ejectives:
>
> /t_>/ > */t?/ > */th/ > /tx/ or /tX/
> /k_>/ > */k?/ > */kh/ > /ks/
> /q_>/ > */q?/ > */qh/ > /qT/
>
> I don't want a collapse of phonemes, but want to get rid of ejectives
> (because I cannot pronounce them well but in isolation). Further, I
> like a /qT/ pattern and I also like the idea of having some kind of
> phonetic anti-symmetry in plosive + fricative clusters.
I find this progression rather unlikely, since glottalization and
aspiration (crucial between steps two and three) are considered
antithetical articulatory gestures. Also, there are languages that have
unit phonemes whose constituents are at different places of articulation,
but these unit phonemes usually share some sort of laryngeal feature
like glottalization, or aspiration or what have you. Thus in Georgian,
the so-called 'harmonic clusters' (I suspect a diachronic rather than
a synchronic reality) all share voicing, glottalization, or aspiration.
Here, */qh/ > /qT/ is particularly unlikely, since there's no obvious
motivation for the dental subpart. /th/ > /tx/ seems reasonable, as
long as you say a really long VOT gets reinterpreted as frication
(I seem to recall this happening in some Siouan language, but at the
phonetic, not phonemic level).
==========================================================================
Thomas Wier "I find it useful to meet my subjects personally,
Dept. of Linguistics because our secret police don't get it right
University of Chicago half the time." -- octogenarian Sheikh Zayed of
1010 E. 59th Street Abu Dhabi, to a French reporter.
Chicago, IL 60637
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Message: 15
Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2004 09:20:57 -0400
From: Sally Caves <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: LiveJournal (was Re: Fantastic new sounds)
Yry eftoihs ("sorry!"); what's the difference between a live journal and a
blog?
----- Original Message -----
From: "Philip Newton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, October 25, 2004 12:39 AM
Subject: OT: LiveJournal (was Re: Fantastic new sounds)
> On Mon, 25 Oct 2004 02:35:06 +0200, Estel Telcontar
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> I discovered a couple fantastic new sounds on Friday that I would like
>> to share; the description of my discovery is here:
>>
>> http://www.livejournal.com/users/tungol/46582.html
>
> Oh! <lj user="tungol"> is you? I never knew.
>
> Who else has LiveJournal accounts? I know one or two have mentioned
> them, but are there any others who'd like to crawl out of the woodwork
> in an easily-identifiable thread?
>
> I'm <lj user="pne">.
>
> Cheers,
> --
> Philip Newton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Watch the Reply-To!
>
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Message: 16
Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2004 09:29:28 -0400
From: "Douglas Koller, Latin & French" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Question about word-initial velar nasal
Phillip wrote:
>Roger Mills wrote:
> > Herman Miller wrote:
> > > Tim May wrote:
>> >
>> > > Incidentally, what languages _do_ allow /N/ initally?
>> >
>> > Thai is one that comes to mind, as well as Cantonese.
>
>Also Hakka.
Also Shanghainese (I imagine other Wu dialects as well).
And of course, G�arthnuns.
Kou
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Message: 17
Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2004 08:41:25 -0500
From: Danny Wier <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Possible base-20 numeric system
From: "Andreas Johansson"
> It would be a load on memory, but there's no reason in principle you
> couldn't
> have unanalyzable atomic words for 0-59 just like we've got for 0-9 in
> decimal.
I was thinking digit symbols, but Hindi has such an irregular naming system
for 1-100 the words have to be memorized by rote.
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Message: 18
Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2004 14:45:00 +0100
From: Stephen Mulraney <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: OT: LiveJournal (was Re: Fantastic new sounds)
Philip Newton wrote:
> On Mon, 25 Oct 2004 02:35:06 +0200, Estel Telcontar
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>>I discovered a couple fantastic new sounds on Friday that I would like
>>to share; the description of my discovery is here:
>>
>>http://www.livejournal.com/users/tungol/46582.html
>
>
> Oh! <lj user="tungol"> is you? I never knew.
Nor I :). I've been slowly becoming aware of more and more LJers that I
already know from CONLANG (I can think of four more beyond myself, Philip
and Estel, but I wouldn't presume to out them in a public forum :)), but
this discovery is new to me.
> Who else has LiveJournal accounts? I know one or two have mentioned
> them, but are there any others who'd like to crawl out of the woodwork
> in an easily-identifiable thread?
>
> I'm <lj user="pne">.
I'm <lj user="ataltane"> (as mentioned in some of my sigs. Not that I post
here much :)).
Stephen
--
Stephen Mulraney [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Klein bottle for rent ... inquire within.
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Message: 19
Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2004 08:46:38 -0500
From: Danny Wier <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: LiveJournal (was Re: Fantastic new sounds)
From: "Sally Caves"
> Yry eftoihs ("sorry!"); what's the difference between a live journal and a
> blog?
LiveJournal.com is a place where people can run journals (i.e. 'blogs') for
free, and the members can interact and form communities.
There is a Conlang community, but it's nowhere as active as CONLANG-L. It
does have a couple advantages though -- full Unicode compatibility and HTML
posting.
My LJ username is 'ludwigvantx', but you'll find a lot more on poltics,
religion, news, mental health issues, natural languages, and music, than
conlanging. There are a few other members of this list that post there, but
I don't know which ones.
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Message: 20
Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2004 09:48:17 -0400
From: "Mark J. Reed" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: LiveJournal (was Re: Fantastic new sounds)
On Mon, Oct 25, 2004 at 09:20:57AM -0400, Sally Caves wrote:
> Yry eftoihs ("sorry!"); what's the difference between a live journal and a
> blog?
Only specificity. http://www.livejournal.com/ is a specific, and quite
popular, blog-hosting website.
-Marcos
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Message: 21
Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2004 14:54:13 +0100
From: Stephen Mulraney <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: LiveJournal (was Re: Fantastic new sounds)
Sally Caves wrote:
> Yry eftoihs ("sorry!"); what's the difference between a live journal and a
> blog?
[We]blog is the generic term; Livejournal (www.livejournal.com) is a site
that hosts blogs, using its own engine. It's somewhat isolated from the
rest of the blogosphere, but saves you the bother of configuring your
own blog software on your own site; and it makes up for its isolation by
making it very easy to refer to other ljs (livejournals - i.e. the blogs
hosted on the site). It has a nifty feature called a friends list, which
lets you view a page of all the recent postings from your favourite ljs
(the friends list also helps you find other interesting blogs: many a
fascinating journal has been found by looking at friend's friends list,
or a friend's friend's friend list :)).
Stephen
--
Stephen Mulraney [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Klein bottle for rent ... inquire within.
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Message: 22
Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2004 16:21:55 +0200
From: Estel Telcontar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: OT: LiveJournal (was Re: Fantastic new sounds)
Philip Newton ha tera a:
> On Mon, 25 Oct 2004 02:35:06 +0200, Estel Telcontar
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > I discovered a couple fantastic new sounds on Friday that I would
like
> > to share; the description of my discovery is here:
> >
> > http://www.livejournal.com/users/tungol/46582.html
>
> Oh! <lj user="tungol"> is you? I never knew.
Yup, that's me. I think I identified myself the first time I commented
on your journal, but that was a while ago.
-Estel
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