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There are 19 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1. Re: Senyecan ortho. breakthrough
From: Muke Tever <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2. Re: Senyecan ortho. breakthrough
From: Muke Tever <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3. Re: OT: LiveJournal
From: Sai Emrys <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4. Re: Question about Latin.
From: John Leland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5. Re: More stuff on colours
From: John Leland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6. Larethian
From: Andreas Johansson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7. Re: introducing myself
From: Wesley Parish <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8. Re: Question about word-initial velar nasal
From: Benct Philip Jonsson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9. Re: Question about word-final velar nasal
From: "B. Garcia" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10. Re: Larethian
From: Andreas Johansson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11. Re: About making a translator
From: Ray Brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12. Re: Welsh "w" and "y"
From: Ray Brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13. Re: Question about word-initial velar nasal
From: "Thomas R. Wier" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14. Re: Welsh "w" and "y"
From: Christian Thalmann <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15. Re: Question about word-initial velar nasal
From: John Cowan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16. Re: Question about word-initial velar nasal
From: "Douglas Koller, Latin & French" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17. Re: Larethian
From: Simon Richard Clarkstone <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18. Re: English Usage: "THEY"
From: Michael Poxon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19. Re: Question about word-initial velar nasal
From: Roger Mills <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
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Message: 1
Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2004 21:08:12 -0600
From: Muke Tever <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Senyecan ortho. breakthrough
caeruleancentaur <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], John Cowan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> Danny Wier scripsit:
>
>>> You could also use S and Z with carons since you can input those
>>> with Alt+0xxx too!
>>>
>>> S-caron = Alt+0138
>>> Z-caron = Alt+0142
>>> s-caron = Alt+0154
>>> z-caron = Alt+0158
>
>> Unlike the other characters, however, these are strictly Windows-
>> only; they shouldn't be used on this list.
>
> Why is that, John? � � �
If you have a poorly-behaved Windows mail client, it will try to send
cp-1251 (the Windows codepage) as Latin 1, which doesn't have these
characters.
A well-behaved mail client will thus try to display them thus:
S-caron = broken pipe
Z-caron = spacing umlaut
s-caron = spacing trema
z-caron = spacing cedilla
If you have a better-behaved mail client, it will tell you you're trying
to send characters your encoding doesn't say exists. Opera's mail client
does it, anyway, though its default is Latin 9, which _does_ include
the caronned characters. [I would have included the characters for broken
pipe, etc., above but they aren't in Latin 9, so it yelled at me....]
*Muke!
--
website: http://frath.net/
LiveJournal: http://kohath.livejournal.com/
deviantArt: http://kohath.deviantart.com/
FrathWiki, a conlang and conculture wiki:
http://wiki.frath.net/
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 2
Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2004 21:21:08 -0600
From: Muke Tever <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Senyecan ortho. breakthrough
On Mon, 25 Oct 2004 21:08:12 -0600, Muke Tever <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> If you have a poorly-behaved Windows mail client, it will try to send
> cp-1251 (the Windows codepage) as Latin 1, which doesn't have these
> characters.
>
> A well-behaved mail client will thus try to display them thus:
> S-caron = broken pipe
> Z-caron = spacing umlaut
> s-caron = spacing trema
> z-caron = spacing cedilla
Er, I amend that. Those are the characters the Latin 9 characters replace
in Latin 1, but CP 1252 actually puts the caronned characters over some
of Latin 1's control characters: "vertical tab set", "single-shift 2,"
"single character intro" and "private message".
Er, and CP1252 is the Latin codepage, 1251 is the Cyrillic.
*Muke!
--
website: http://frath.net/
LiveJournal: http://kohath.livejournal.com/
deviantArt: http://kohath.deviantart.com/
FrathWiki, a conlang and conculture wiki:
http://wiki.frath.net/
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________________________________________________________________________
Message: 3
Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 00:26:59 -0400
From: Sai Emrys <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: OT: LiveJournal
I'm on LJ too - <lj user="saizai">. I also founded LJ comm=conlangs,
comm=conlangs_decal, & I now comod comm=empaths.
I've seen a couple other conlangers on LJ - user=ged, for example.
Take a look at the first two communities I mentioned and you'll find quite a
few conlangers. ;-)
- Sai
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Message: 4
Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 01:41:03 EDT
From: John Leland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Question about Latin.
I have always wondered if the Korean particle -kwa, which is used very much
as -que is used in Latin could be related, or if that is just a coincidence.
Certainly if the languages asa whole are related it must be very distantly.
John Leland
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Message: 5
Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 01:37:40 EDT
From: John Leland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: More stuff on colours
In a message dated 10/17/04 4:56:36 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
<< e word for 'red', for example, would be a
compound meaning something like 'blood-coloured' >>
As I noted in my report on Rihana-ye colors, this isalso true of Rihana-ye.
The most common word for read bamali does mean bloodcolored.
(Literally man-water-bright, but bama man-water is the word for blood, and
the adj. li bright is the normal suffix for colors.)
John Leland
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Message: 6
Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 10:52:14 +0200
From: Andreas Johansson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Larethian
During an exceptionally boring lecture earlier this morning, I started sketching
a bit on 'Larethian' (from the Meghean name of the country - native name unknown
this far), a language that until today lacked any substance except being the
source of Meghean _corth_ "king".
It's not anything like fleshed out yet, but some basics have been settled. It's
an fusional accusative language meant to have a faintly Germanic feel. Two
numbers and at least three cases (NOM, ACC, and a third one used with at least
some prepositions and adverbial phrases - let's call it JAC, for
"jackallative"!). The phonemic inventory isn't set yet, but your standard stops
/p t k b d g/, a fricative series /f T s x/ - I might yet add /S/ - that becomes
voiced between voiced segments (but never in word-initial or -final position),
probably three nasals /n m N/, at least one liquid /r/, glides /j w/, five
vowels /i e a o u/ with some subphonemic umlaut effects (/o u/ > [2 y] before a
following /i/ or /j/, possibly also raising before /a/ and/or centralization of
/i e/ to [i\ 3] before /u/). /x/ will be [h] in word-initial position, hence
orthography |h|. /T/ is provisionally spelt |z| (blame the Spanish!).
Tentative declension of _korz_ "king":
. SG PL
NOM korz [kO4T] korzu [kO4TU]
ACC korza [kO4Ta] or [kQ4Ta] korzum [kO4TUm]
JAC korzi [k24TI] korzim [k24TIm]
There will be multiple declensions; I however intend this be the commonest one.
Final nasals might optionally be realized as nasalization of preceeding vowels.
Adjs will probably agree in number and case, and generally behave
nominalesquely.
At least some prepositions are cliticized - this far I know _s-_ "of". Eg _maha
skorzi_ [maGa sk24TI] "might of (the) king" (no articles).
As usual, I've put verbs last on the to-do list! Both tense and aspect will
probably be marked, however. There'll be a subjunctive, too, I suspect, and
perhaps further moods (indicative and jussive/imperative go without saying!).
Comments this far?
Andreas
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Message: 7
Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 22:56:35 +1300
From: Wesley Parish <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: introducing myself
Welcome! Ya torue! And good to have you on board!
Wesley Parish
On Tue, 26 Oct 2004 10:48, Rene Uittenbogaard wrote:
> Well, although I've already made a few posts, it seems that it is
> a good custom to introduce oneself on the list, so here is my "this is
> me"-post.
>
>
> My name is Ren� Uittenbogaard, I'm 33 years old, from the Netherlands.
> I work for an ICT company (Unix and database stuff). On AIM I am
> ReneUit; on IRC my nick is Tranton.
>
> Languages spoken: Dutch, English, German, some French, some Esperanto,
> a little Spanish, a little Russian.
>
> I've been conlanging for quite some time, I can't exactly remember how
> long.
>
> Conlang projects started (not necessarily finished):
>
> Alna�r (named after the star; alphabet based on Hebrew; deemed too much
> a rip-off of everything, not very original; abandoned)
> Treytan (Alna�r done right; abandoned)
> Pict (pictographic/logographic language, I might just revive some of
> its ideas in one of my current languages)
> Ure spraec (based on old/middle-English; abandoned)
> Tretta (Treytan done right, nice alphabet)
> Cal�nnawn (probably most extensive project together with Alna�r)
> Tacs�y (lizard language short on labials)
> Dyammo (human language, sci-fi setting)
> Eyahw�nsi (language of plains people, uses a syllabary)
>
> The unfortunate thing is that I have got a lot of hobbies, therefore, my
> time is not only spent on conlanging :-/
>
> Regards,
>
> Ren�
--
Wesley Parish
* * *
Clinersterton beademung - in all of love. RIP James Blish
* * *
Mau e ki, "He aha te mea nui?"
You ask, "What is the most important thing?"
Maku e ki, "He tangata, he tangata, he tangata."
I reply, "It is people, it is people, it is people."
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Message: 8
Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 13:10:37 +0200
From: Benct Philip Jonsson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Question about word-initial velar nasal
John Cowan wrote:
> Roger Mills scripsit:
>
>
>>>>Incidentally, what languages _do_ allow /N/ initally? Offhand, I can
>>>>only think of Vietnamese and Tibetan, and it's a tricky thing to look
>>>>up.
>>>
>>>Thai is one that comes to mind, as well as Cantonese. It looks like
>>>Indonesian also has a few words with initial ng-. I'm sure there must be
>>>others; I assume that Nganasan, at least, is pronounced with an initial
>>>/N/ or /Ng/.
>>
>>Many Indonesian/Philippine/Oceanic languages have /N-/; not many of the
>>forms are reconstructible all the way back, however.
>
>
> Middle Chinese had /N-/, and several Sinitic languages retain it, although
> in Mandarin it's become /w-/. It makes me wonder about a possible
> Sino-Tibetan/Austronesian/Tai-Kadai Sprachbund effect, along with the
> more well-known ones.
Didn't /N-/ become zero or /R/ in Mandarin?
/BP 8^)
--
Benct Philip Jonsson -- melroch at melroch dot se
Solitudinem faciunt pacem appellant!
(Tacitus)
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Message: 9
Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 04:54:25 -0700
From: "B. Garcia" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Question about word-final velar nasal
On Sun, 24 Oct 2004 16:35:03 -0400, Carsten Becker
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> And what is the strange /N/ sound one can hear on the Tagalog example from
> unilang.org? Search for "Sonidos del Mundo", it's hidden on this site
> somewhere. Otherwise, use Google to get to that page.
> However, that /N/ in the recording does not sound velar to me. It's further
> back as it seems -- uvular?
I think for Philippine languages it can vary between more velar, and
more uvular. I know that _i_ can switch between the two, but I tend to
end up somewhere in between. It may be that the speaker is pronouncing
it a bit more carefully and is articulating it at a "stronger"
position, or further back. However, typically it usually is more
velar.
--
You can turn away from me
but there's nothing that'll keep me here you know
And you'll never be the city guy
Any more than I'll be hosting The Scooby Show
Scooby Show - Belle and Sebastian
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Message: 10
Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 14:06:27 +0200
From: Andreas Johansson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Larethian
Quoting myself <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> Tentative declension of _korz_ "king":
>
> . SG PL
> NOM korz [kO4T] korzu [kO4TU]
> ACC korza [kO4Ta] or [kQ4Ta] korzum [kO4TUm]
> JAC korzi [k24TI] korzim [k24TIm]
That was supposed to read:
. SG PL
NOM korz [kO4T] korzu [kO4DU]
ACC korza [kO4Da] or [kQ4Da] korzum [kO4DUm]
JAC korzi [k24DI] korzim [k24DIm]
Likewise, _maha skorzi_ [maGa sk24Di].
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Message: 11
Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 13:06:04 +0100
From: Ray Brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: About making a translator
On Monday, October 25, 2004, at 10:37 , taliesin the storyteller wrote:
> * [EMAIL PROTECTED] said on 2004-10-25 21:27:26 +0200
>>
>> Do any of you know how to make a translator for usage on the
>> computer? The only computer language I know is mIRC scripting and
>> I
>> don't even know enough of that language to make a translator that can
>> translate effectively with correct grammar.
>
> If you find out how, remember to apply for a patent. You could make
> trillions...
>
>
> t. (guess what my masters thesis will roughly be about...)
That's what my master's thesis was about :)
But I haven't made trillions because as Simon Richard Clarkstone wrote on
Monday, October 25, 2004, at 09:46:
> This is a highly non-trivial task.
That is no understatement! It is not something that can be treated just in
an email. If you are really serious about automatic machine translation
you will need to do quite a bit of serious reading.
> You can get a computer to do
> reasonable glosses/interlinears, but natural language is very difficult.
> Unless your lang has a very close correspondence to English (or
> whichever your destination lang is, since you may be making a family of
> conlangs) then translations will still look terrible.
They will - in many cases the 'translation' is likely to be almost
meaningless.
> OTOH, learning to program is a useful skill, even if it only gives you a
> new way to think about grammar for conlanging.
ABSOLUTELY!! Besides, programming is fun :)
> Python
> <http://www.python.org/> would likely be a good place to start, though
> (depending on your age) you could also take a Comp Sci course at
> university. There is a possibility that there exists somewhere a
> programming language (or a library of code) specifically for writing
> translators, but it is difficult to search for such a thing, as
> "translator" is also a more general programming term.
The programming language I used for machine translation was Prolog. It is
my favorite language. I haven't tried Python, but i have heard its virtues
extolled,
> Once you (or anyone else) have a bit of programming skill (after several
> years), then you could try writing a BNF notation or some form of
> mathematical-ish specification for your language(s) (easier than for
> natlangs, since it doesn't have the idiom and general irregularity that
> natlangs tend to acquire).
Yes, I agree.
[snip]
> Finally, several free translation sites are linked to from
> <http://babelfish.org/>.
I don't know what these are like - but I was put off babelfish once when i
was feeling lazy and got it to 'translate' a site I'd found in French. The
English it produced was largely unintelligible. It was much easier to
stick with the French (which i can read fairly fluently).
But, as Richard has written & I have discovered from experience, it is a
highly non-trivial task.
Ray
===============================================
http://home.freeuk.com/ray.brown
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
===============================================
Anything is possible in the fabulous Celtic twilight,
which is not so much a twilight of the gods
as of the reason." [JRRT, "English and Welsh" ]
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Message: 12
Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 13:05:58 +0100
From: Ray Brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Welsh "w" and "y"
On Monday, October 25, 2004, at 09:30 , Carsten Becker wrote:
> Hello!
>
> My parents keep telling on and off when the topic is Welsh,
> that |w| can basically represent *any* sound.
...which is quite wrong. |w| has the same values as Latin |u|, namely: [u:
], [U] and [w]. Unlike Latin, the different pronunciations are good deal
more predictable in Welsh.
(Of course Latin is often re-spelled with both |u| and |v| to make it
easier :)
> Pronounciation in Welsh orthography is AFAIK partly only
> predictable from the context,
Eh? You'll upset the Welsh with such statements ;)
The welsh are proud of the 'phonetic spelling' (I was told that many times
when I lived in Wales). Welsh spelling is in fact nearly phonemic - more
phonemic for example than German spelling.
> but I can't imagine that a
> letter can be used for any sound. In short: I wanted to
> know if this claim is true.
No it is not.
> Sensible would be that |w| is
> depending on what precedes or follows [w] or [v\], /u/ or
> maybe even /y/, but any sound ...?
|w| is the consonant [w] if it occurs before a vowel, with the sole
exception of the diphthong |wy| [Uj]. It also has the consonant
pronunciation in the initial combinations gwl- [gwl] as in _gwlad_ [gwla:d]
"land, country", gwn- [gwn] as in _gwneud_ [EMAIL PROTECTED] "to make, to do" and
gwr- as in _gwraig_ [gwrajg] "wife, woman"; when such words undergo soft
mutation the |w| in the initial wl-, wn- and wr- retain the consonant
pronunciation, e.g. _wlad_ [wla:d], _wneud_ [EMAIL PROTECTED], _wraig_ [wrajg].
Otherwise |w| is the high back rounded vowel, either long [u:] or short [U]
.
IN WORDS OF ONE SYLLABLE:
(a) vowels are _short_ if:
1. They stand alone, i.e. the word is one letter only, e.g. _a_ "and", _i_
"to".
2. When they are followed by the consonants |c| /k/, |p|, |t|, |m| or |ng|
/N/ (exceptions are marked in writing with a circumflex accent).
3. When they are followed by two or more consonants.
4. When |a|, |e|, |o|, |y| or |w| (i.e. all vowels except |i| and |u|) are
followed by |n|, |l| or |r| (exceptions are marked with a circumflex
accent , apart from:
_hen_ [he:n] "old" and _dyn_ [di:n] or [d1:n] "man")
Note: |u| in north Wales is the high central unrounded vowel (a bit like
Russian bI) but in south Wales is pronounced exactly the same as |i|.
(b) vowels are long if:
1. They are marked with a circumflex ending.
2. They occur are in syllable final position of an initial consonant or
consonant cluster, e.g. _da_ [da:] "good", _te_ [t_he:] "tea".
3. They occur in syllables ending in |b| [b], |ch| [X], |d| [d], |dd| [D],
|f| [v], |ff| [f], |g| [g], |s| [s] or |th| [T]. There are a few
exceptions in words borrowed from English, for example _bag_ [bag] (with
the short sound of "Welsh English", not the south east British & US [&]).
4. Before the letters |l|, |n| and |r|, the vowels |i| and |u| are long.
There are a few exception in words borrowed from English, foe example
_pin_ [p_hIn].
(b)IN WORDS OF MORE THAN ONE SYLLABLE
1. Unstressed vowels are short
1. In the stressed syllable, i.e. the next to last syllable, the vowels
follow the same rules as for one syllable words, except that the
lengthened vowels are medium length rather then long, for example the |e|
in _cegin_ /'ke:gIn/ "kitchen" is a little shorter and less tense than the
|e| in _ceg_ /ke:g/ "mouth", but not as short or lax as the |e| in _cen_
/kEn/ "film, layer".
Note that unvoiced plosives after the vowel are geminate in pronunciation,
tho not not in writing, for example:
_hapus_ ['happ_hI\s] or ['happ_hIs] "happy"
The only real problem occurs with gwy-. The may represent either |g| plus
the diphthong |wy| /uj/, or |gw| /gw/ plus the vowel |y| (see below). If
there is a circumflex on either the |w| or the |y| then we know which is
intended. But if there is no written accent, the pronunciation just ha to
be learnt with the word.
> And something that interests me personally, how can you tell
> that |y| is really what it represents by default (I guess
> [y])?
You guess wrongly. |y| has two pronunciations in Welsh which are
traditionally referred to as 'clear' and 'obscure'.
(a) CLEAR
This is exactly the same as Welsh |u|, that is a high central unrounded
vowel in the north nnd exactly like |i| in the south. The clear sound may
be long or short according to the rules above. Clear |y| occurs if:
1. The letter occurs in the final syllable of a polysyllabic word.
2. The letter occurs in a one syllable word, except for the exceptions
noted below.
(b) OBSCURE
'Obscure' |y| is [EMAIL PROTECTED]
1. This is the sound of |y| in all syllables (including the stressed,
penultimate syllable), except the final syllable.
2. In the following one syllable words (which are always unstressed):
y, yr "the"; yn, yng, ym "in"; yn [grammatical particle]; fy "my"; dy
"your", "thy".
3. In a few one syllable borrowings from English, for example _nyrs_
"nurse"
> Wales is "Cymru" in Welsh, which is AFAIK pronounced
> [kAmrA] or so -- at least I have been told so.
I regret someone has misinformed you. It is ['[EMAIL PROTECTED] (south Walian) or
['[EMAIL PROTECTED] (north Walian); anglophones usually pronounce it their dialect
variant of /'kVmri/.
> How to pronounce that ominous "ll" I have not found out yet.
> Is it [L] or [L\] or was it really [K]?
It is *not* [L], [L\], nor any other approximant. It is the voiceless,
lateral *fricative*. If you try to say the English 'push' and 'pull' *at
the same time*, you get a fair approximation to the Welsh word _pwll_
("pit").
Ray
===============================================
http://home.freeuk.com/ray.brown
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
===============================================
Anything is possible in the fabulous Celtic twilight,
which is not so much a twilight of the gods
as of the reason." [JRRT, "English and Welsh" ]
________________________________________________________________________
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Message: 13
Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 07:54:07 -0500
From: "Thomas R. Wier" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Question about word-initial velar nasal
From: John Cowan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Roger Mills scripsit:
> > Many Indonesian/Philippine/Oceanic languages have /N-/; not many of the
> > forms are reconstructible all the way back, however.
>
> Middle Chinese had /N-/, and several Sinitic languages retain it, although
> in Mandarin it's become /w-/. It makes me wonder about a possible
> Sino-Tibetan/Austronesian/Tai-Kadai Sprachbund effect, along with the
> more well-known ones.
Greg Anderson wrote an article in a festschrift for Howard Aronson
in which he claims that the presence of initial /N/ is an areal
feature of many native Siberian languages, including Tungusic,
Chukotko-Kamchatkan, Nivkh, Samoyedic, Eskimo and Turkic. For the
last three groups, it appears to be a secondary phenomenon, arising
from borrowings. So, at least as far as this feature is concerned,
there may be some connection between the two linguistic areas.
==========================================================================
Thomas Wier "I find it useful to meet my subjects personally,
Dept. of Linguistics because our secret police don't get it right
University of Chicago half the time." -- octogenarian Sheikh Zayed of
1010 E. 59th Street Abu Dhabi, to a French reporter.
Chicago, IL 60637
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Message: 14
Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 13:57:46 -0000
From: Christian Thalmann <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Welsh "w" and "y"
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Ray Brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> "land, country", gwn- [gwn] as in _gwneud_ [EMAIL PROTECTED] "to make, to
do" and
Is |eu| always [EMAIL PROTECTED], or only after labialization? I would
have expected [ej]...
> (a) CLEAR
> This is exactly the same as Welsh |u|, that is a high central unrounded
> vowel in the north nnd exactly like |i| in the south.
Then a spelin reeform replacing all clear |y| with |u| is
practically inevitable. =P Would it hurt to write |dyn|
as |dun|?
Speaking of spelin reeforms... I just had a deeper look
at that Irish Gaelic Kauderwelsch booklet... argh!
Irish never fails to give me a headache! =\
-- Christian Thalmann
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Message: 15
Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 10:09:32 -0400
From: John Cowan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Question about word-initial velar nasal
Thomas R. Wier scripsit:
> Greg Anderson wrote an article in a festschrift for Howard Aronson
> in which he claims that the presence of initial /N/ is an areal
> feature of many native Siberian languages, including Tungusic,
> Chukotko-Kamchatkan, Nivkh, Samoyedic, Eskimo and Turkic. For the
> last three groups, it appears to be a secondary phenomenon, arising
> from borrowings. So, at least as far as this feature is concerned,
> there may be some connection between the two linguistic areas.
If so, the mediating element with Southeast Asia almost has to be
Sinitic, despite the disappearance of [N-] over most of the Sinitic
area. No other language group is simultaneously in contact with Turkic,
Tungusic, Tai-Kadai, and Austro-Asiatic. However, Manchu, the Tungusic
language most in contact with Chinese, also lacks [N-].
--
Unless it was by accident that I had John Cowan
offended someone, I never apologized. [EMAIL PROTECTED]
--Quentin Crisp http://www.ccil.org/~cowan
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Message: 16
Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 10:24:50 -0400
From: "Douglas Koller, Latin & French" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Question about word-initial velar nasal
Benct asks:
>John Cowan wrote:
>>
>>Middle Chinese had /N-/, and several Sinitic languages retain it, although
>>in Mandarin it's become /w-/. It makes me wonder about a possible
>>Sino-Tibetan/Austronesian/Tai-Kadai Sprachbund effect, along with the
>>more well-known ones.
>
>Didn't /N-/ become zero or /R/ in Mandarin?
Well, these aren't mutually exclusive. Eg:
I, me: Cantonese - ngoh5, Shanghainese - ngu2, Mandarin -- wo3
five: Cantonese - ng5, Shanghainese - ng2, Mandarin - wu3
but
hungry - Cantonese - ngoh(3?6?), Shanghainese - ngu2, Mandarin - e4
evil - Cantonese - ngoh(3?6?), Shanghainese - (dunno), Mandarin - e4
"e" words in Mandarin start with /N/ in Cantonese (and presumably,
sans dictionnaire, Shanghainese).
So, /w-/ and zero are out there. /R/? If that's pinyin "r", then I
don't think so. Shanghainese has words beginning in /nj/ (SAMPA /J/?)
which are "r-" in Mandarin:
person: Shanghainese - nying2, Mandarin - ren2
sun: Shanghainese - nyi?5, Mandarin - ri4
hot: Shanghainese - nyi?5, Mandarin - re4
Maybe this is what you were thinking of?
Kou
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Message: 17
Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 16:55:51 +0100
From: Simon Richard Clarkstone <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Larethian
Andreas Johansson wrote:
> . SG PL
> NOM korz [kO4T] korzu [kO4DU]
> ACC korza [kO4Da] or [kQ4Da] korzum [kO4DUm]
> JAC korzi [k24DI] korzim [k24DIm]
I don't know why, but I have a feeling that this language might feel
more natural and (as you put it) "Germanic" if the jackallative plural
were the same as either the jackallative singular or the accusitive
plural. Assuming the jackallative plural isn't used commonly, its
historic form could plausibly have merged with another form, leading to:
king.JAC.PL = korzum
or (my more likely, due to sounds of -o-)
king.JAC.PL = korzi
If, in some descendant language, the vowel of the jackallative changes
to match the others, then the second possibility could actually
*prevent* the merging of the jackallative with the accusative or nominative.
(I am not a linguist, but these changes do seem plausible.)
--
Simon Richard Clarkstone
[EMAIL PROTECTED] / [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Message: 18
Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2004 00:44:50 +0100
From: Michael Poxon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: English Usage: "THEY"
This is pretty common, "they" functioning as a pronoun when you can't (or
choose not to) easily mention one particular gender. It also functions as an
impersonal pronoun "They say he's a bad man" = "it is said that he is a bad
man". Similarly in French with "on" - "ici on parle francais" - "they speak
french here / french is spoken here", etc.
This type of pronoun has a separate person in my conlang Omeina (core
consonant g):
bere gain = everyone sees him, we all see him
Mike
> I came across a strange usage of the word "they" in
> my speach today.
>
> I was speaking to my father, saying:
>
> "I was reading Frankenstein the other day, and they
> talk a lot about electricity in the introduction to
> this version"
>
> This got me to thinking about the word "they", and
> how I use it. I often say things like:
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Message: 19
Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 12:31:46 -0400
From: Roger Mills <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Question about word-initial velar nasal
John Cowan wrote:
> If so, the mediating element with Southeast Asia almost has to be
> Sinitic, despite the disappearance of [N-] over most of the Sinitic
> area. No other language group is simultaneously in contact with Turkic,
> Tungusic, Tai-Kadai, and Austro-Asiatic.
Nowadays, yes. But what about in the period between the end of the last Ice
Age (say ca. 12-10,000 B.C.E.?) and approx. 5-4000 B.C.E., to which the
modern language families can be more or less dated, and contact can
certainly be assumed??
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