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There are 8 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1. Re: USAGE: rhotics (was: Advanced English + Babel text)
From: "J. 'Mach' Wust" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2. Re: Disgusting thread... ;-)
From: Roger Mills <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3. Re: rhotic miscellany (was: Advanced English + Babel text)
From: Chris Bates <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4. Re: rhotic miscellany (was: Advanced English + Babel text)
From: Andreas Johansson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5. Re: Disgusting thread... ;-)
From: Benct Philip Jonsson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6. Who made CXS?
From: And Rosta <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7. Re: Disgusting thread... ;-)
From: "B. Garcia" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8. Re: rhotic miscellany, and a usage note
From: Roger Mills <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
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Message: 1
Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 13:52:53 -0500
From: "J. 'Mach' Wust" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: USAGE: rhotics (was: Advanced English + Babel text)
On Thu, 4 Nov 2004 10:36:36 -0500, Pascal A. Kramm <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>On Wed, 3 Nov 2004 14:37:56 -0500, J. 'Mach' Wust <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
>
>>Because of the /r/-realization? I would have said that the French accent
>>of German isn't characterized by a specific realization of /r/, but rather
>>(by rhythm and melody, of course) by the realization of /ç/ , /h/ and /i/.
>
>If someone here in Germany wants to imitate a French dialect, he'll most
>notably omit the initial "h" sound (e.g. turning "hotel" into "otel"), and
>pronounce the German "ch" as "sh".
That's what I said, and also [i] instead of [I]. Additionally, the stops
aren't aspirated.
>>|Schwyzerdütsch| and |Schwiizertütsch| may be the most common ways to
>>write it, but many variations are possible (the |y| is used for /i/ as
>>opposed to |i| for /I/, but not all share this use).
>
>Most common is "Schwyzerdütsch", but I've also seen "Schwyzertütsch"
>sometimes. Never with the double i, however.
Google has more hits for "Schwiizerdütsch" than for "Schwyzertütsch". You'll
also find it with |yy| or |i| instead of |y|, with |tz| instead of |z| or
with |üü| instead of |ü| (almost every permutation has hits). I've even
found a single hit of "Schwyzrdütsch" without |e|, which makes sense since
the /r/ is syllabic (as for the rhotics). ;)
[EMAIL PROTECTED]:
j. 'mach' wust
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Message: 2
Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 14:39:50 -0500
From: Roger Mills <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Disgusting thread... ;-)
Speak, Memory....
A long time ago, the cartoonist Al Capp had a sequence in his Li'l Abner
comic strip involving a new, not-yet-seen character who had a "disgusting
habit". It went on for a couple weeks, with as much double-entendre
speculation as he could get away with in those days. Finally the character
appeared, and turned out to be wearing an outlandish and shabby riding
(fox-hunting type) "habit".
Another two-week or so sequence featured great concern about some product or
other that was "poison". It turned out to be imported canned "poisson".
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Message: 3
Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 19:49:12 +0000
From: Chris Bates <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: rhotic miscellany (was: Advanced English + Babel text)
Personally I've always had difficulty making my uvular trill become an
approximant or fricative.... unless I'm careful either seems to quickly
become a trill. *sigh* It sounds like a motor is back there... and an
unhealthy one at that. Maybe with some water in the fuel tank.
>
> Interesting. And here I have to work hard to achieve it. I'm not happy
> with approximations; it has to sound like a little motor in the back
> of your
> throat. I find I can produce it best before back vowels, when the
> back of
> my tongue is relaxed and lowered to accommodate the tip of the uvula. It
> vanishes immediately if I raise my tongue to pronounce a front vowel.
> Then
> it becomes an approximate. I'm very interested in all of this,
> because I'm
> thinking of giving Menarilihs a uvular trill that is very pronounced.
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Message: 4
Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 21:02:15 +0100
From: Andreas Johansson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: rhotic miscellany (was: Advanced English + Babel text)
Quoting "J. 'Mach' Wust" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> I also believe that this indetermination is the reason for the (already
> mentioned) IPA 'assymetry' in retroflex [r`] vs. alveolar [r, 4]: I guess
> that the pronunciation of [r`] is as undetermined as the one of [r] (if not
> opposed to [4]), and that there are no languages that oppose a retroflex
> trill to a retroflex tap.
Well, sórtá. (That's a really strong case of Dutch emphasis!)
The asymetry I refered to isn't found in the IPA, but in the X-SAMPA, where
putting an '`' after a sign for a alveolar sound creates the notation for the
corresponding retroflex sound, _except_ for 'r', for which the diacritic also
changes MoA to flap/tap. This is of course because [r`] is more suggestive than
is [4`], and since X-SAMPA aims to ASCIIfy the IPA, it only needs for the
tap/flap, not the trills. That the IPA in turn chose to have the signs it has
is, no doubt, due to the lack of a contrast as you say, but it isn't asymetric.
Andreas
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Message: 5
Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 22:45:19 +0100
From: Benct Philip Jonsson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Disgusting thread... ;-)
> All the French stuff you describe (I don't like camembert; I quite
> like Brie and Port-Salut, though; I adore croissant, and I don't mind
> a baguette from time to time) is quite common here, too. As a matter
> of fact, I wonder if France really needs to be close in order to have
> those thins in the supermarkets.
Surely not. We even have a local baguette bakery in Gothenburg,
although Paula bakes her own these days. Much preferable.
> Jan
--
/BP 8^)
--
Benct Philip Jonsson -- melroch at melroch dot se
Solitudinem faciunt pacem appellant!
(Tacitus)
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Message: 6
Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 23:57:40 -0000
From: And Rosta <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Who made CXS?
Herman:
> There's a nice CXS (Conlang X-SAMPA) chart at:
>
> http://cassowary.free.fr/Linguistics/cxschart.png
Who made CXS? Whoever did it did a real service for our community,
which for a time seemed to be getting contaminated by X-SAMPA. CXS
is really good: it respects major transliterational traditions that
evolved on Conlang and similar lists, and quite rightly snubs major
abominations perpetrated by X-SAMPA in arrogant disregard of
prevailing net conventions.
--And.
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Message: 7
Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 15:56:15 -0800
From: "B. Garcia" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Disgusting thread... ;-)
On Thu, 4 Nov 2004 10:11:53 -0500, Pascal A. Kramm <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> French names (like mine) can be easily found
I ended up with an Irish first name (Barry), and English middle name
(James) and a Spanish last name (Garcia). But, I was named after a
Jewish doctor from the east coast ;).
--
You can turn away from me
but there's nothing that'll keep me here you know
And you'll never be the city guy
Any more than I'll be hosting The Scooby Show
Scooby Show - Belle and Sebastian
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Message: 8
Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 19:52:41 -0500
From: Roger Mills <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: rhotic miscellany, and a usage note
J. 'Mach' Wust wrote:
> > --- Ray Brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> skrev:
> >> That was the /r/ used by Hitler, as you hear on
> >> ancient newsreels. It may be - I don't know - that
> >> this accounts for its demise in the last half
> >> century.
>
> As I've said, I think the accent used in these ancient newsreels was just
> the standard media accent of that time, for nazis as well as for
> communists
> or democrats. We just happen to hear more nazi newsreels than other ones
> (which is sad if you think about it).
Hitler was Austrian IIRC and began his political rise in Bavaria. Is the
trilled r possibly a southern feature?
>
OTOH Marlene Dietrich, almost his contemporary (and much nicer to listen
to), had the uvular fric. r, often parodied by English speakers who hear it
as closest to our [w].
OTTH, I'm now listening to my Lotte Lenya/Brecht/Weill CD, and she has a
most amazing mixture of pronunciation:
--a trilled alveolar [r] seems to predominate, especially in emphasized
words, word final, in clusters like ...tr..., gr...; perhaps this is "stage
German".
--almost an American /r/ in final position in unstressed words like der,
einer, though it's possible it's uvular and doesn't come thru the recording
process well. The first word of "Cäsars Tod"-- Rom -- sounds very American.
If these songs were recorded in the 50s, it may be she'd acquired a bit of
an American accent after 20+ years here.
========================
I really don't like to do this, but it seems to be in vogue to correct our
foreign friends' usages. J. 'Mach' Wust wrote:
>but it is remarkable that somebody
can so totally acquire a foreign language that even native speakers of the
same region are cheated!>
"Cheated" is not quite right, and too strong in any case-- "fooled" (not
malicious) or "deceived" (possibly malicious) would be more appropriate.
"Cheat" connotes deceiving with illicit or dishonest means and motives--
cheat at cards, cheat on an exam, cheat in an election (did I say that???),
cheat s.o. out of his money.
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