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There are 25 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1. Re: rhotic miscellany, and a usage note
From: John Cowan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2. Re: rhotic miscellany, and a usage note
From: Andreas Johansson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3. Re: calendars (was: samhain?)
From: "Mark J. Reed" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4. Re: calendars (was: samhain?)
From: "B. Garcia" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5. Re: Intercalation & Calendar Numbers (was: samhain?)
From: "B. Garcia" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6. Re: USAGE: pronunciation mimicry (was: rhotics)
From: Philip Newton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7. Re: Who made CXS?
From: Philip Newton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8. Re: USAGE: rhotics (was: Advanced English + Babel text)
From: Philip Newton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9. Re: Question about word-initial velar nasal
From: Ray Brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10. Re: rhotic miscellany (was: Advanced English + Babel text)
From: Ray Brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11. Cookbooks (but not about cooking!)
From: Arthaey Angosii <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12. Re: rhotic miscellany (was: Advanced English + Babel text)
From: Andreas Johansson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13. Re: Question about word-initial velar nasal
From: Philip Newton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14. Re: rhotic miscellany (was: Advanced English + Babel text)
From: Philip Newton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15. Re: Who made CXS?
From: "Isaac A. Penzev" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16. Re: Who made CXS?
From: Jan van Steenbergen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17. Re: USAGE: pronunciation mimicry (was: rhotics)
From: "J. 'Mach' Wust" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18. Re: rhotic miscellany (was: Advanced English + Babel text)
From: John Cowan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19. Senyecan Time & Calendar
From: caeruleancentaur <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20. OT: ... and a usage note
From: "J. 'Mach' Wust" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21. Re: rhotic miscellany, and a usage note
From: "J. 'Mach' Wust" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22. Re: Who made CXS?
From: "J. 'Mach' Wust" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23. Re: rhotic miscellany (was: Advanced English + Babel text)
From: Steg Belsky <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24. Re: USAGE: pronunciation mimicry (was: rhotics)
From: Sally Caves <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25. Re: rhotic miscellany (was: Advanced English + Babel text)
From: John Cowan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
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Message: 1
Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 21:18:37 -0500
From: John Cowan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: rhotic miscellany, and a usage note
Roger Mills scripsit:
> --almost an American /r/ in final position in unstressed words like der,
> einer, though it's possible it's uvular and doesn't come thru the recording
> process well. The first word of "C�sars Tod"-- Rom -- sounds very American.
It's probably [a], which is a common realization of -er; non-syllabic [a]
is likewise a common realization of -r that is not -er.
--
John Cowan [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.reutershealth.com
"Mr. Lane, if you ever wish anything that I can do, all you will have
to do will be to send me a telegram asking and it will be done."
"Mr. Hearst, if you ever get a telegram from me asking you to do
anything, you can put the telegram down as a forgery."
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Message: 2
Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2004 03:48:34 +0100
From: Andreas Johansson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: rhotic miscellany, and a usage note
Quoting John Cowan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> Roger Mills scripsit:
>
>
> > --almost an American /r/ in final position in unstressed words like der,
> > einer, though it's possible it's uvular and doesn't come thru the recording
> > process well. The first word of "C�sars Tod"-- Rom -- sounds very American.
>
> It's probably [a], which is a common realization of -er; non-syllabic [a]
> is likewise a common realization of -r that is not -er.
I'd say it's normally a centralish [6].
Andreas
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Message: 3
Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2004 00:00:58 -0500
From: "Mark J. Reed" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: calendars (was: samhain?)
On Thu, Nov 04, 2004 at 06:52:13PM +0000, Ray Brown wrote:
> Yep - the Jewish calendar is certainly more interesting than the Gregorian.
> The Mayan calendar is even better :)
Yeah, but calendars with a built-in expiration date make me nervous. :)
(According to the Mayan long count, the end of the world - to be
followed by the birth of a brand new one - will take place on Dec 21,
2012. So we only have a little over 8 years to prepare. :))
-Marcos
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Message: 4
Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 21:18:03 -0800
From: "B. Garcia" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: calendars (was: samhain?)
On Fri, 5 Nov 2004 00:00:58 -0500, Mark J. Reed <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> (According to the Mayan long count, the end of the world - to be
> followed by the birth of a brand new one - will take place on Dec 21,
> 2012. So we only have a little over 8 years to prepare. :))
>
> -Marcos
>
Greaaaaat, just after an election season in the US :)
The Mayan Calendar is pretty cool, but like Mark says, it has a self
destruct method built in
--
You can turn away from me
but there's nothing that'll keep me here you know
And you'll never be the city guy
Any more than I'll be hosting The Scooby Show
Scooby Show - Belle and Sebastian
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Message: 5
Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 21:09:21 -0800
From: "B. Garcia" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Intercalation & Calendar Numbers (was: samhain?)
According to an old book on Philippine History I have, the Visayans of
the Philippines divided the year up into twelve months:
Ulalong - January
Dagangkahoy - February
Dagangbulan - March
Kiling - April
Misabuyan - May
Kabay - June
Hidapadapon - July
Libadlubad - August
Kangorasol - September
Bagyobagyo - October
Panglot nga diotay - November
Panglot nga daku - December
Days of the week were 7:
Tagurkad - Sunday
Dumason - Monday
Dukotdukot - Tuesday
Baylobaylo - Wednesday
Danghus - Thursday
Hingothingot - Friday
Ligid - Saturday
The year began with the appearance of the Pleiades
The Ifugao are said to have a year of 13 months with 28 days. On a
leap year they simply added 29 days to the 13th month.
--
You can turn away from me
but there's nothing that'll keep me here you know
And you'll never be the city guy
Any more than I'll be hosting The Scooby Show
Scooby Show - Belle and Sebastian
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Message: 6
Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2004 07:10:33 +0100
From: Philip Newton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: USAGE: pronunciation mimicry (was: rhotics)
On Thu, 4 Nov 2004 13:35:13 -0500, J. 'Mach' Wust <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> By the way, the name "Scheidegger" is very Swiss, even in its spelling: The
> |gg|-digraph is only used in Switzerland for a fortis /k:/, which is
> represented by |(c)k| in standard German. Swiss German "der Egge"
> (corner/hill) corresponds to standard German "die Ecke/das Eck" (corner).
This "corner/hill" morpheme is also the one in the name
"Schwarzenegger", isn't it?
ISTR reading that the Governator himself translated it as "black
plowsman", as if from "der Egger" < "die Egge" + actor suffix -er, but
in other places I've read that it's more likely to be a gentilic(?)
derived from the name of a town called "Schwarzenegg", presumably
"black hill".
Cheers,
--
Philip Newton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Watch the Reply-To!
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Message: 7
Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2004 07:24:30 +0100
From: Philip Newton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Who made CXS?
On Thu, 4 Nov 2004 23:57:40 -0000, And Rosta <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> CXS
> is really good: it respects major transliterational traditions that
> evolved on Conlang and similar lists, and quite rightly snubs major
> abominations perpetrated by X-SAMPA in arrogant disregard of
> prevailing net conventions.
Though the j\-J\ thing occasionally comes up...
Cheers,
--
Philip Newton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Watch the Reply-To!
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Message: 8
Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2004 07:18:50 +0100
From: Philip Newton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: USAGE: rhotics (was: Advanced English + Babel text)
On Thu, 4 Nov 2004 18:17:03 +0100, Steven Williams <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> --- "Pascal A. Kramm" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [r\VUt_?]:
> > If someone here in Germany wants to imitate a French
> > dialect, he'll most notably omit the initial "h"
> > sound (e.g. turning "hotel" into "otel"), and
> > pronounce the German "ch" as "sh".
>
> Is [x] turned to [S] _all_ the time
ITYM "Is /x/ turned to [S] all the time"; in my opinion, you don't
have [x]'s that sometimes turn into [C]'s (does that even make sense?)
but rather /x/'s that are realised as [x] or [C] depending on the
environment. (If, indeed, they are one phoneme, which is, I believe,
still a question debated by Germanists.)
> or only when it appears palatalized as [C]?
I'd say that this is the case -- i.e. [C] -> [S] but not [x] -> [S].
Not sure what becomes of [x]; I'd be inclined to say that it remains
[x] in a mock French accent.
The accent/rhythm/melody also changes, though that's more difficult to notate.
> As a native speaker of
> English, I sometimes catch myself doing the same
> thing; i.e., I'd pronounce /machen/ pretty much
> perfectly, as ["ma.xn=], but I'd realize the phrase
> /ich d�chte/ as [IS."[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Interesting, especially since [C] occurs in my lect of English, as an
allophone of /hj/ (probably via something like [hj] > [h_j] > [C]) --
for example, in |huge|, roughly [Cu:dZ].
Cheers,
--
Philip Newton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Watch the Reply-To!
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Message: 9
Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2004 07:21:06 +0000
From: Ray Brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Question about word-initial velar nasal
On Thursday, November 4, 2004, at 03:27 , Tim May wrote:
> (Sorry, this first went direct to Philip - GMail Reply-To header)
>
> Philip Newton wrote at 2004-11-04 07:00:02 (+0100)
>> On Thu, 4 Nov 2004 02:31:38 +0000, Tim May <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>> Danny Wier wrote at 2004-10-24 06:38:00 (-0500)
>>>> From: "Tim May"
>>>>
>>>>> Incidentally, what languages _do_ allow /N/ initally?
>>>>> Offhand, I can only think of Vietnamese and Tibetan, and
>>>>> it's a tricky thing to look up.
>>>>
>>>> Albanian, and I have no idea how that happened.
[snip]
>> At any rate, http://www.google.com/search?q=nga+site%3Aal finds a
>> number of hits for the word "nga" in Albanian sites.
>>
>
> That's very interesting. It certainly appears that "nga" is an
> Albanian word - it seems to be a preposition meaning "from" "of" or
> "by".
Maybe - but that does not necessarily mean Albanian has initial [N].
> On the other hand, the UPSID profile for Albanian doesn't list a velar
> nasal
> http://www.langmaker.com/db/ups_albanian.htm
> and none of the pronunciation guides I can find describe either a
> velar nasal phoneme or an "ng" digraph.
Same here.
> Which leaves me wondering how "nga" is pronounced.
Albanian seems to have prenasalized voiced plosives, for example:
mbrapa - behind
mbr�mja - evening
mbarue - to finish
mbush� - full
mbrenda - inside
mbrami - last
mbas - next
mbi - on
mbyll� - to shut
ndyer - dirty
ndigjue - to hear
ndihmue - to help
ndreq� - to repair
ndej� - to stay
So I guess that in the following we similarly have prenasalized voiced
plosives:
ngran� - to dine
ngusht� - narrow
ngadal� - slowly
ngroht� - warm
However, I am also told that it is only the southern Tosk dialect that
retains the prenasalized plosive in the combos _mb_ and _nd_; in the
northern Gheg dialect they are simply nasals, i.e. juy plain ol' [m] and
[n] respectively. My source is infuriately silent about initial ng- but
this does suggest surely that while initial ng- is /ng/ [Ng] in Tosk, it
is /N/ [N] in Gheg.
So my partially informed guess is that -nga_ is /nga/ [Nga] in Tosk but
/Na/ in Gheg. Do we have any Albanian experts on board?
>
>> (Strangely enough, it also finds a number of sentences containing
>> e-dot, which I had only known from Lithuanian -- I only know
>> e-umlaut for Albanian.
Same here.
>> Maybe a dialect compromise meaning "some
>> dialects pronounce this /�/, others /e/"?
I was not aware of this variation. Does e-single-dot occur in the same
texts as e-double-dot? If not, I would assume that e-single-dot was an
alternative spelling of e-double-dot.
But we need someone more knowledgeable about Albanian
Ray
===============================================
http://home.freeuk.com/ray.brown
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
===============================================
Anything is possible in the fabulous Celtic twilight,
which is not so much a twilight of the gods
as of the reason." [JRRT, "English and Welsh" ]
________________________________________________________________________
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Message: 10
Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2004 07:20:42 +0000
From: Ray Brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: rhotic miscellany (was: Advanced English + Babel text)
On Thursday, November 4, 2004, at 02:49 , Sally Caves wrote:
> Hi, Ray. Long time.
Yep - nice to 'see' you back on Conlang :)
[snip]
>> I have. The priest - he was a youngish man - who married my son &
>> daughter-in-law (she's French) almost a dozen years back had a most
>> vigorous uvular trill. It was, of course, used by Edith Piaff (je ne
>> regrette rien....) - but it is very rare now and usually considered the
>> mark of speakers even more antique than me :)
>
> :) Antique is a state of mind that I don't think you succumb to.
Thanks - I was meaning it strictly in chronological terms. I retired last
august.
> I've
> never heard it in France, but if it's true, it's quite wonderful.
I suspect that priest is still trilling his uvular. He may have adopted it
because it carries further than the more common voiced uvular fricative
which is important, I guess, if you're trying to get yourself heard in a
large church. Anyway, I agree, it is good its not dead.
>> Actually my elder grandson (who is more or less bilingual) used to have
>> a
>> delightful uvular trill, but his 'French R' has now become the familiar
>> uvular approximant (there's practically no friction with the modern urban
>> French R). I'm told - tho I don't know how true this is - that this is
>> typical of young children: to start with trilling the uvular but
>> gradually
>> to lose the trill.
>
> Interesting. And here I have to work hard to achieve it.
That's always the bugbear when trying to pick up new sounds as an adult.
> I'm not happy
> with approximations; it has to sound like a little motor in the back of
> your
> throat. I find I can produce it best before back vowels, when the back of
> my tongue is relaxed and lowered to accommodate the tip of the uvula.
My attempts very - on a good day, they're OK.
>> You also find it, as I expect you know, among certain north Walian
>> speakers.
>
> Actually, I didn't know that. I stayed strictly in Swansea, with
> occasional
> forays into Aberystwyth. The only "gog" I knew was a tall chap who was so
> socially frightening that I didn't have many conversations with him. I
> knew
> about the peculiar pronunciation of "y" in the north in words like dydd,
> and
> some of the differences in vocabulary.
The high unrounded central vowel [i\] is common to all north Wales; but
the uvular trilled [R] is not. The more common pronunciation is the apical
trilled [r] as in the south. But the uvular [R] is used in certain
localities. I am afraid I do not know which ones, but I have come across
people who do use it. I have been told that this variant is not found in
the south.
[snip]
> I've been to Caernarvon, Bangor, and Rhyl, but I
> must have been too dazed by the beauty of it all to note this particular
> feature. :)
It is not common to all these regions.
> People in Wales would almost always start speaking to me in
> English when I started a conversation in Welsh, noting, I think, my
> limited
> vocabulary (as j.'mach' wust describes in his post!).
Those people who use the uvular trill, do so also when they speak English.
My guess that you simply did not come across any speakers who used the
uvular trill.
[snip]
> inveighed against it), but it was just so overwhelmingly used. Like our
> "lie/lay" confusion that is fast becoming standard, alas, in the US.
The confusion is quite an old one in the UK. I think if prescriptivists
had not insisted on _lie_ (intrans.) ~ lay (trans.), _lay_ would have
become the norm for both long ago. My parents used only _lay_, reserving
_lie_ exclusively for "telling a falsehood". This seems to be common to
colloquial dialect over much of Britain.
> I hope "nucular" doesn't catch on and become dominant.
...and I hope it doesn't cross the Atlantic :)
[snip]
>> Certainly the lingually trilled /r/ is still alive in the south of
>> France,
>> especially in rural areas.
>
> Yes, that I knew. What would be really interesting is to know when the
> French ceased to pronounce some of its endings and why, and in what order.
> You mention the dropping of the "r" in -er and -ier below, but what about
> the disappearance of final "t" and "s"?
Final -t seems to become silent in the 12th century, except of course in
liaison. About the middle of the 13th final -s had similarly become silent
and so the process continued on into the 14th cent.
> The spelling, I've read, is
> fourteenth century. What started to drop out, and why did the spelling
> conventions persist?
Conservatism.
> I would imagine this took place over a long time,
It did.
> hence the fierce clinging to the older spellings. But of course, we
> English
> speakers still insist on our precious "bought," hundreds of years after
> the
> "gh" was no longer heard in this word.
Exactly! Both French & English spellings basically reflect how the
language was spoken some 7 or 800 hundred years ago. But the preservation
of older spellings has in its turn affected pronunciation. For example, in
English "waistcoat" had become pronounced 'weskit', but the Victorian
bourgeoisie that this too vulgar so the spelling pronunciation no prevails.
When I was young (chronologically) everyone called a _tortoise_ a "tortus"
- now I often hear ['tO:tOjz} - ach!
Similarly in French, I was taught back in the 1950s that _ao�t_ was
pronounced [u]. In france now it is almost invariably [ut].
[snip]
>> We use a modified form of X-SAMPA known as CXS (Conlang X-SAMPA :)
>>
>> [r] = apical lingual trill
>
> "Apical" meaning "tip of the tongue"?
Yep.
>
>> [4] = linguo-dental tap or flap (Spanish single /r/)
>> [r`] = retroflex tap
>> [r\] = the dental/alveolar approximant ("English /r/")
>
> meaning American retroflex r?
I meant the /r/ of southern England - but it certainly sounds the same to
me as the normal American /r/, tho some LeftPonders tell me there is a
difference.
>
>> [R\] = uvular trill
>> [R] = uvular approximant and/or voiced uvular fricative
>> [X[ = voiceless uvular fricative
>
> What does [x] mean, then?
[x[ is the voiceless velar fricative, and [G] is the voiced velar
fricative.
>
>> The symbol ` is used to show rhotacized or r-colored vowels: [a`], [EMAIL
>> PROTECTED],
>> [i`] etc.
>
> As in "idear"? "He had an idear I liked, and that was to go to Africar in
> the winter." My Swansea barrister friend would say this, and my Bostonian
> friend says it as well.
That looks to me more like the 'intrusive r' - it's common in dialects
that don't use retroflex vowels. I mean the -ere in a word like _here_ in
a rhotic dialect.
>
>>> In Teonaht, |r| is a retroflex tap. You curl the tongue back in the
>>> mouth and bring it forward across the back part of the alveolar ridge.
>> [r`] :)
>>
>>> Does
>>> anybody know of a natural language that does this?
>>
>> Hindi/Urdu has both the retroflex flap [r`] as well as the dental flap
>> [4]
>> . I believe it is quite common in the languages of the Indian
>> subcontinent.
>
> Aw shucks! :)
I imagine in fact that if a sound is at all humanly possible some language
somewhere in the world will have it.
> Thanks...
You're welcome.
> Sally
>
> I'm glad to see your website, Ray. Is this relatively new?
Just over a year - I am trying to revise it all, but what with looking
after our parish website & my wife's, my own tends to take the back seat
:=(
Ray
===============================================
http://home.freeuk.com/ray.brown
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
===============================================
Anything is possible in the fabulous Celtic twilight,
which is not so much a twilight of the gods
as of the reason." [JRRT, "English and Welsh" ]
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Message: 11
Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2004 00:04:30 -0800
From: Arthaey Angosii <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Cookbooks (but not about cooking!)
If "Describing Morphosyntax" is the conlang cookbook, and "Guns,
Germs, & Steel" is the conculture cookbook, what other cookbooks are
out there? How about a xenobiology (the next topic I'll be
researching)?
Note that I'm NOMAIL right now, but I'll be tracking this thread via
the Listserv page.
--
AA
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Message: 12
Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2004 09:32:40 +0100
From: Andreas Johansson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: rhotic miscellany (was: Advanced English + Babel text)
Quoting Ray Brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> I imagine in fact that if a sound is at all humanly possible some language
> somewhere in the world will have it.
I'm still waiting for a language with a sublamino-velar trill.
Andreas
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Message: 13
Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2004 09:41:58 +0100
From: Philip Newton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Question about word-initial velar nasal
On Fri, 5 Nov 2004 07:21:06 +0000, Ray Brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > Philip Newton wrote at 2004-11-04 07:00:02 (+0100)
> >> (Strangely enough, it also finds a number of sentences containing
> >> e-dot, which I had only known from Lithuanian -- I only know
> >> e-umlaut for Albanian.
> >>
> >> Maybe a dialect compromise meaning "some
> >> dialects pronounce this /�/, others /e/"?
>
> I was not aware of this variation. Does e-single-dot occur in the same
> texts as e-double-dot? If not, I would assume that e-single-dot was an
> alternative spelling of e-double-dot.
It may be a Google or charset artefact; when I opened one such hit,
the text had e-double-dot. The e-single-dot was only in the Google
summary/excerpt.
Cheers,
--
Philip Newton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Watch the Reply-To!
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Message: 14
Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2004 10:03:18 +0100
From: Philip Newton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: rhotic miscellany (was: Advanced English + Babel text)
On Thu, 4 Nov 2004 08:03:22 -0500, J. 'Mach' Wust <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Thu, 4 Nov 2004 06:57:55 +0000, Ray Brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> >Whether something similar happened in German, I do not know. I am not
> >aware of rhotacized vowels in any German dialects, but they may occur.
>
> To my knowledge, they don't. Also, I haven't ever heard of a German dialect
> that has an approximant [r\] as in English.
I have; I remember meeting someone who spoke with what I thought was
an American accent in his /r/'s -- hence, presumably [r\]. When I
asked him where he was from, he assured me that he was a native German
speaker and that this pronunciation was common in his area of Germany,
though he was often asked whether he was foreign. Unfortunately, I
don't remember where he was from, though I believe it might have been
some area of Westfalia.
On Fri, 5 Nov 2004 07:20:42 +0000, Ray Brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> When I was young (chronologically) everyone called a _tortoise_ a "tortus"
> - now I often hear ['tO:tOjz} - ach!
Ah. I also have ['tO:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- and ['pO:[EMAIL PROTECTED], for that matter.
> Similarly in French, I was taught back in the 1950s that _ao�t_ was
> pronounced [u]. In france now it is almost invariably [ut].
Interesting; I learned [ut] in the '90's and was not aware of the
previous pronunciation.
Cheers,
--
Philip Newton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Watch the Reply-To!
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Message: 15
Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2004 11:21:09 +0200
From: "Isaac A. Penzev" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Who made CXS?
And Rosta wrote:
> Who made CXS? Whoever did it did a real service for our community,
It was mainly Tristan McLeay (Kesuari). Occasional additions and
contributions were made by some other people, including your humble servant.
-- Isaac A. Penzev (aka Yitzik)
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Message: 16
Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2004 09:28:41 +0000
From: Jan van Steenbergen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Who made CXS?
--- Philip Newton skrzypszy:
> > CXS is really good: [...]
Indeed, a great piece of work.
> Though the j\-J\ thing occasionally comes up...
Agreed, it's a flaw. But since CXS is essentially the work of this
group, I wonder if we couldn't democratically decide to change that.
Jan
=====
"If you think you are too small to make a difference, try sleeping in a closed room
with a mosquito."
http://steen.free.fr/
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Message: 17
Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2004 05:20:09 -0500
From: "J. 'Mach' Wust" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: USAGE: pronunciation mimicry (was: rhotics)
On Fri, 5 Nov 2004 07:10:33 +0100, Philip Newton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
>On Thu, 4 Nov 2004 13:35:13 -0500, J. 'Mach' Wust <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
>> By the way, the name "Scheidegger" is very Swiss, even in its spelling:
>> The |gg|-digraph is only used in Switzerland for a fortis /k:/, which is
>> represented by |(c)k| in standard German. Swiss German "der Egge"
>> (corner/hill) corresponds to standard German "die Ecke/das Eck" (corner).
>
>This "corner/hill" morpheme is also the one in the name
>"Schwarzenegger", isn't it?
>
>ISTR reading that the Governator himself translated it as "black
>plowsman", as if from "der Egger" < "die Egge" + actor suffix -er, but
>in other places I've read that it's more likely to be a gentilic(?)
>derived from the name of a town called "Schwarzenegg", presumably
>"black hill".
The second is much more plausible to me.
[EMAIL PROTECTED]:
j. 'mach' wust
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Message: 18
Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2004 07:34:26 -0500
From: John Cowan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: rhotic miscellany (was: Advanced English + Babel text)
Ray Brown scripsit:
> Those people who use the uvular trill, do so also when they speak English.
> My guess that you simply did not come across any speakers who used the
> uvular trill.
In Ill Bethisad, if you remember, the uvular trill (and perhaps by now the
uvular fricative) is an eastern North American _Sprachbund_ phenomenon,
affecting English, Brithenig, French, and perhaps the archaic Swedish
of New Sweden. I do not think it has spread to North American Spanish
or to Montreiano, however. I have no clue about the Judeo-Spanish of
Mueva Sefarad (Newfoundland).
> The confusion is quite an old one in the UK. I think if prescriptivists
> had not insisted on _lie_ (intrans.) ~ lay (trans.), _lay_ would have
> become the norm for both long ago. My parents used only _lay_, reserving
> _lie_ exclusively for "telling a falsehood". This seems to be common to
> colloquial dialect over much of Britain.
And North America as well. The distinction is high-maintenance and
low-functional-load and probably would be abandoned if it weren't
such a convenient class shibboleth.
> >I hope "nucular" doesn't catch on and become dominant.
>
> ...and I hope it doesn't cross the Atlantic :)
Some people, it seems, now have two lexemes: "nucular bomb/reactor"
vs. "nuclear DNA". It will be interesting to see, if it does spread
to the U.K., whether it remains [EMAIL PROTECTED]@(r\)] or whether a variant
with [nju-] appears.
> For example, in English "waistcoat" had become pronounced 'weskit',
> but the Victorian bourgeoisie that this too vulgar so the spelling
> pronunciation now prevails.
Huh. I'm surprised. The object itself is rather archaic to me, but
I learned the pronunciation "weskit" (from a dictionary, probably) and
didn't know it had changed back.
I note that in one of the last chapters of the _Lord of the Rings_,
the Gaffer (Sam's father) says "What's become of his weskit [sic]?
I don't hold with wearing ironmongery, whether it wears well or no."
ObScure: English has made three separate compounds of "house" + "wife":
the OE one is now pronounced ['hVsi] and spelled "hussy"; the ME one
is now pronounced ['hVsIf], still spelled "housewife", and means "portable
sewing kit", and the ModE one is of course ['hauswaIf].
> When I was young (chronologically) everyone called a _tortoise_ a
> "tortus"
I believe all Americans say this (rhotically or not, as the case may be).
--
So that's the tune they play on John Cowan
their fascist banjos, is it? [EMAIL PROTECTED]
--Great-Souled Sam http://www.ccil.org/~cowan
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Message: 19
Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2004 12:46:46 -0000
From: caeruleancentaur <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Senyecan Time & Calendar
Senyecan history/mythology is divided into seven eons (aayani)
of 156,000 years each. The 1st eon is that of the Self-existent &,
in reality, stretches back eternally. At the end of that eon, s/he
created light & that is the 2nd eon. At the end of the 2nd,
s/he created the cosmos & that is the 3rd eon. At the end of the
3rd, s/he created the elements & that is the 4th eon. At the
end of the 4th eon, s/he created the loquent beings & that is the
5th eon. The 5th eon is divided into 6 eras (meyhdiitani) of
26,000 years each. At the beginning of each era, s/he created one of
the loquent beings: Children of Air, of Fire, of Water, of Earth, of
Wood, of Stone. After the era of the Children of Stone, there was
the 6th eon of harmony among all the loquent beings. Then came the
Great Sundering, during which many fell out of harmony. After
allegiances were re-aligned, the 7th eon began, in which we live
today.
Both the solar & the lunar cycles are used in the Senyecan calendar.
The solar year begins at the winter solstice (yhoomsuulsaatan).
Eight celebrations are held in conjunction with the solar year. The
primary celebations are the winter solstice, the vernal equinox
(mhesn^medhsentan), the summer solstice (leetsuulsaatan), and the
autumnal equinox (osn^medhsentan). The secondary celebrations are
the cross-quarter days of midwinter (medhyhooman [Imbolc]), midspring
(medhmhesnan [Beltane]), midsummer (medhleetan [Lughnasadh]), and
midautumn (medhosnan [Samhain]).
The lunar cycle contains 13 months. The first month begins at
sunrise on the day after the full moon after the winter solstice.
The other months begin at sunrise on the day after the successive
full moons. These months are known as winter moon (yhoomluxnan),
late winter moon (ghasyhoomluxnan), early spring moon
(aayermhesn'luxnan), spring moon (mhesn'luxnan), late spring moon
(ghasmhesn'luxnan), early summer moon (aayerleethluxnan), summer moon
(leethluxnan), late summer moon (ghasleethuxnan), early autumn moon
(aayerosn'luxnan), autumn moon (osn'luxnan), late autumn moon
(ghasosn'luxnan), and early winter moon (aayeryhoomluxnan).
Each of the phases of the moon begins a new "week," known as a
luxn'mervan (moon phase), or mervan for short. Thus, the mervan can
vary in length from six to nine days. The "week" begins and
celebrations are held on the day after each phase is at its fullest.
The first six days of each phase are named aftr the avatar
reverenced by each of the six loquent beings in the order of their
creation: luxn'djeyan (Moon day - Children of Air);
aaterdjeyan (Aaterun's day - Children of Fire); neerdjeyan (Neer's
day - Children of Water); seegj'djeyan (Seegyun's day - Children
of Earth); percw'djeyan (Percwun's day - Children of Wood); and
puusdjeyan (Puusun's day - Children of Stone). Additional days in
the phase bear the names aljoidjeyan, one extra day; alj'dwiidjeyan,
two extra day; and alj'tirdjeyan, three extra day. The names of the
six days are used for the seven days of the contemporary week, being
preceded by suuldjeyan, Sun's day, a day dedicated to the Self-
existent as s/he is in him/herself, not as an avatar. Neerun and
Seegyun are female, the rest are male.
P.S. The names of the six avatars are also used for the six visible
moving heavenly bodies, treated as animate beings. luxnen = moon;
aateren = Mercury; neeren = Venus; seegjen = Mars; percwen = Jupiter;
puusen = Saturn.
Charlie
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Message: 20
Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2004 08:11:44 -0500
From: "J. 'Mach' Wust" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: OT: ... and a usage note
On Thu, 4 Nov 2004 19:52:41 -0500, Roger Mills <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>I really don't like to do this, but it seems to be in vogue to correct our
>foreign friends' usages. J. 'Mach' Wust wrote:
>
>>but it is remarkable that somebody
>>can so totally acquire a foreign language that even native speakers of the
>>same region are cheated!>
>
>"Cheated" is not quite right, and too strong in any case-- "fooled" (not
>malicious) or "deceived" (possibly malicious) would be more appropriate.
>"Cheat" connotes deceiving with illicit or dishonest means and motives--
>cheat at cards, cheat on an exam, cheat in an election (did I say that???),
>cheat s.o. out of his money.
Thanks for that correction! I wasn't sure about this word and looked it up
in leo.org, but it didn't help me.
English is a very difficult language, not in its morphology, but in its
lexicon, and I'm glad for corrections.
[EMAIL PROTECTED]:
j. 'mach' wust
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Message: 21
Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2004 08:07:18 -0500
From: "J. 'Mach' Wust" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: rhotic miscellany, and a usage note
On Thu, 4 Nov 2004 19:52:41 -0500, Roger Mills <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>J. 'Mach' Wust wrote:
>> > --- Ray Brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> skrev:
>> >> That was the /r/ used by Hitler, as you hear on
>> >> ancient newsreels. It may be - I don't know - that
>> >> this accounts for its demise in the last half
>> >> century.
>>
>> As I've said, I think the accent used in these ancient newsreels was just
>> the standard media accent of that time, for nazis as well as for
>> communists or democrats. We just happen to hear more nazi newsreels than
>> other ones (which is sad if you think about it).
>
>Hitler was Austrian IIRC and began his political rise in Bavaria. Is the
>trilled r possibly a southern feature?
I don't know how the /r/ is realized in Bavarian dialects. Hitler, however,
didn't have no Bavarian in his speech. He spoke just the standard media
accent of his time.
==============================================
On Fri, 5 Nov 2004 03:48:34 +0100, Andreas Johansson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>Quoting John Cowan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
>
>> Roger Mills scripsit:
>>
>> > --almost an American /r/ in final position in unstressed words like
>> > der, einer, though it's possible it's uvular and doesn't come thru the
>> > recording process well. The first word of "C�sars Tod"-- Rom -- sounds
>> > very American.
>>
>> It's probably [a], which is a common realization of -er; non-syllabic [a]
>> is likewise a common realization of -r that is not -er.
>
>I'd say it's normally a centralish [6].
Normally, yes, though in sung speech (or other over-explicit
pronunciations), that sound be split up into a schwa-like part and an
[R]-like part.
[EMAIL PROTECTED]:
j. 'mach' wust
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Message: 22
Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2004 08:21:13 -0500
From: "J. 'Mach' Wust" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Who made CXS?
On Fri, 5 Nov 2004 07:24:30 +0100, Philip Newton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
>On Thu, 4 Nov 2004 23:57:40 -0000, And Rosta <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> CXS
>> is really good: it respects major transliterational traditions that
>> evolved on Conlang and similar lists, and quite rightly snubs major
>> abominations perpetrated by X-SAMPA in arrogant disregard of
>> prevailing net conventions.
>
>Though the j\-J\ thing occasionally comes up...
That convention seems very reasonable to me. CXS is based on the IPA, and
the IPA sign for j\ looks almost like a |j|, and I understand the meaning of
CXS |\| is "almost like".
What I'd have changed are the numbers used for the representation of vowels
I use a lot, I'd like e\, E\, a\ better than |2, 9, 6|, but since someone on
this list pointed out that |2| is the vowel of deux and |9| is the vowel of
neuf, I'm a little bit more comfortable with this system.
[EMAIL PROTECTED]:
j. 'mach' wust
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Message: 23
Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2004 16:18:34 +0200
From: Steg Belsky <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: rhotic miscellany (was: Advanced English + Babel text)
On Nov 5, 2004, at 2:34 PM, John Cowan wrote:
> Ray Brown scripsit:
>> Those people who use the uvular trill, do so also when they speak
>> English.
>> My guess that you simply did not come across any speakers who used
>> the
>> uvular trill.
> In Ill Bethisad, if you remember, the uvular trill (and perhaps by now
> the
> uvular fricative) is an eastern North American _Sprachbund_ phenomenon,
> affecting English, Brithenig, French, and perhaps the archaic Swedish
> of New Sweden. I do not think it has spread to North American Spanish
> or to Montreiano, however. I have no clue about the Judeo-Spanish of
> Mueva Sefarad (Newfoundland).
It has begun to rear its ugly head there also, but in still only a
minority of speakers.
("ugly" meaning, of course, 'i can't pronounce an uvular trill' :P)
Has it hit Scots and/or Scottish Gaelic yet? Since Alba Nuadh is the
next province over from Mueva Sefarad, that'd affect whether it's a
very small minority of speakers or a very large minority :) .
-Stephen (Steg)
"ezekiel... he has like the crazy thing!"
~ brilliant biblical commentary by n
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Message: 24
Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 22:16:16 -0500
From: Sally Caves <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: USAGE: pronunciation mimicry (was: rhotics)
Oh, but it's not totally acquired! Of the gifts of foreign language
learning, I count a good mimicry of the sounds the easiest. There is all
the rest, of course. The mastery of vocabulary, idiom, reading and writing
knowledge, comprehension, and so forth and so on. Actually, I wish it came
more easily to me. I have friends who can pick up a language in six months,
and are babbling away cheerfully with thick accents.
Sally
----- Original Message -----
From: "J. 'Mach' Wust" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, November 04, 2004 1:35 PM
Subject: Re: USAGE: pronunciation mimicry (was: rhotics)
> On Thu, 4 Nov 2004 10:33:24 -0500, Sally Caves <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
>
>>From: "J. 'Mach' Wust" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>
>>> A most remarkable and seldom gift! I've known A Swiss German who told me
>>> that native speaker of Spanish had taken him for mentally challenged
>>> because of his lack of vocabulary.
>>
>>Ha! Yeah, that's the problem. You have some basic vocabulary and some
>>useful phrases, but you speak them well. Then no defenses to muster
>>against charges of idiocy. But I usually have some trace of an accent. I
>>prided myself, though, in Geneva in being able to hide my American
>>heritage. People usually asked me if I was from Britain or Germany. Had
>>to practice, then, on my plosives.
>>
>>Is mimicry of pronunciation that remarkable? I'm fairly good at accents,
>>too, but not flawless. A lot of Americans like to make fun of a southern
>>accent, assuming that it is monolithic and not multifarious and regional.
>
> That kind of mimicry is not remarkable, but it is remarkable that somebody
> can so totally acquire a foreign language that even native speakers of the
> same region are cheated!
>
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]:
> j. 'mach' wust
>
>
>
> <off-topic>
>
>>>>Are you Swiss? Do you or have you live(d) in Switzerland?
>>>
>>> Yes, I do, I live in Berne and speak Bernese German.
>>
>>I had a very pleasant visit to Berne. We went in December of 1985. We
>>clocked the time it took for the signs to change from "sortie" to
>>"Ausfahrt" on the Autobahn. We fed carrots to the bears, all of them very
>>antic, and I took a picture of my friend next to a wall near the bear pit
>>that had graffiti written on it: Ba"r oder nicht Ba"r: das ist hier die
>>Frage. I have a picture here of store on a corner (a no entry sign on the
>>street). The building has a corner tower on it next to an arcade.
>>Painted
>>on the cement wall is "Apotheke und Drogerie: Scheidegger," and above it
>>is
>>a mural of customers dressed in seventeenth century clothing. IS THAT
>>STILL THERE?
>
> I don't know. I've been in the old city and have had a look at the
> pharmacy
> I thought you were talking about, but it wasn't that one...
>
> By the way, the name "Scheidegger" is very Swiss, even in its spelling:
> The
> |gg|-digraph is only used in Switzerland for a fortis /k:/, which is
> represented by |(c)k| in standard German. Swiss German "der Egge"
> (corner/hill) corresponds to standard German "die Ecke/das Eck" (corner).
>
>>I had no Schwiizertu"tsche, much less the Bernese German
>
> In Bernese German, it'd be "Schwytzerd�tsch"! ;)
>
> </off-topic>
>
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Message: 25
Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2004 09:51:57 -0500
From: John Cowan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: rhotic miscellany (was: Advanced English + Babel text)
Steg Belsky scripsit:
> Has [the uvular trill] hit Scots and/or Scottish Gaelic yet? Since
> Alba Nuadh is the next province over from Mueva Sefarad, that'd affect
> whether it's a very small minority of speakers or a very large minority
> :) .
Scots, definitely yes. SG, I don't know.
--
John Cowan [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.ccil.org/~cowan www.reutershealth.com
Linguistics is arguably the most hotly contested property in the academic
realm. It is soaked with the blood of poets, theologians, philosophers,
philologists, psychologists, biologists and neurologists, along with
whatever blood can be got out of grammarians. - Russ Rymer
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