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There are 25 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1. Re: CXS changes
From: Herman Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2. Re: CXS changes
From: Herman Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3. I think I'm happy with my alphabet now!
From: Glenn Alexander <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4. Re: Spelling pronunciations
From: Sally Caves <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5. Re: Book Review & a comment on KÃlen
From: Sally Caves <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6. Re: Spelling pronunciations
From: "B. Garcia" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7. Re: Book Review & a comment on KÃlen
From: Sylvia Sotomayor <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8. Re: CHAT Re: Spelling pronunciations (multiple)
From: Roger Mills <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9. Re: Disgusting thread... ;-)
From: Philip Newton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10. Re: CHAT Re: Spelling pronunciations (multiple)
From: "B. Garcia" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11. Re: English l and Spanish ll
From: Roger Mills <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12. Re: CHAT Re: Spelling pronunciations (multiple)
From: Roger Mills <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13. CHAT of vests & tortoises (was: Spelling pronunciations)
From: Ray Brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14. Re: /k/ in i.t.a.
From: Ray Brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15. Re: English l and Spanish ll
From: Muke Tever <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16. Re: Need some help with terms: was "rhotic miscellany"
From: Ray Brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17. Re: Spelling pronunciations (was: rhotic miscellany)
From: "Thomas R. Wier" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18. Re: Small relay
From: Jan van Steenbergen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19. Re: Disgusting thread... ;-)
From: Jan van Steenbergen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20. Re: Spelling pronunciations
From: Andreas Johansson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21. Re: CXS changes
From: Andreas Johansson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22. Re: CXS changes
From: "J. 'Mach' Wust" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23. Re: Spelling pronunciations (was: rhotic miscellany)
From: "B. Garcia" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24. Re: CXS changes
From: Tristan Mc Leay <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25. Re: Spelling pronunciations (was: rhotic miscellany)
From: John Cowan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
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Message: 1
Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2004 22:03:52 -0600
From: Herman Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: CXS changes
Tristan Mc Leay wrote:
> - If anyone can think of a replacement symbol for one of them, and
> then have <J\> and <j\> as synonyms, that's my preferred choice in
> my role as maintainer of CXS. This would probably be the same idea
> as how <t_s> and <ts)> are synonyms, but no-one ever uses <t_s>
> anymore and I might as well remove it from my chart now that <ts)>
> has been so successful. (Unless I've forgotten anyone?)
Is + used for anything in CXS? We could use it for putting a stroke
through a character in general: [j+] for [J\], [h+] for [X\], [?+] for
the epiglottal plosive symbol (who remembers what [>\] stands for?), and
so on. (This is essentially how it's used in APA.)
________________________________________________________________________
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Message: 2
Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2004 22:23:00 -0600
From: Herman Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: CXS changes
Mark J. Reed wrote:
> On Mon, Nov 08, 2004 at 05:58:35PM +0100, Andreas Johansson wrote:
>>While we're discussing changes, I might mention moving [P] to the
>>bilabial fricative (currently [p\]).
>
>
> Absolutely. Besides the reasons you give, there is the fact that in the
> majority of cases, a fricative derived from a stop uses the uppercase
> version of the stop symbol in CXS: g->G, b->B, d->D, t->T. The other
> exception is k->x (instead of *k->K), which is fine since it agrees with
> the IPA. But I must say I find the actual use of [K] in CXS - for the
> lateral fricative - completely counterintuitive.
>
I agree with using [P] for [p\]; we don't need it for [v\] any more, and
I wouldn't be surprised if it's already been used for [p\] once or twice
before.
[K] doesn't look much like the l with belt symbol, but nothing else does
all that much either (except $ in some fonts if the stroke goes all the
way through).
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Message: 3
Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2004 15:29:12 +1100
From: Glenn Alexander <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: I think I'm happy with my alphabet now!
Hi conlangers
I'm back off the lurk, and I think I am now happy with my alphabet.
The language is still called 'link' for now but that will change once
I have a vocab and can name it in itself. I will make it a loglang,
but not as loglang as lojban is ;-)
http://www.shoalhaven.net.au/~glenalec/link/letters.html
I also have a very very very tentative beginnings of a preliminary
attempt at a word-building rationalle linked from the bottom of that
page.
Comments on either welcome.
Thanx also to Claudio Gnoli (Liva loglang) for some inspiration.
Regards,
glenalec
--------------------------------------------------------
Glenn Alexander
(B.Teach, B.Ed Major IT Education, University of Wollongong Australia)
Home site: http://www.shoalhaven.net.au/~glenalec
Jabber: glenalec @ jabber.org
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________________________________________________________________________
Message: 4
Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2004 00:00:33 -0500
From: Sally Caves <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Spelling pronunciations
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Cowan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Tristan Mc Leay scripsit:
>
>> (I'll never believe anyone puts an /r/ in 'wash' until I've heard it
>> with my own ears and I'm satisfied they're not faking it :)
>
> Oh yes. And the capital of our country is called by these particular
> Americans /[EMAIL PROTECTED]/. I've heard it with *my* own ears.
I'll vouch for it, too. Common in parts of the midwest. I think the |r| in
this formation is non retroflex, though, the /S/ drawn back to the post
palatal region by the |w|, which gives it its r-coloring. Strangely, I
don't think it extends to "watch." I've never heard "wortch."
Sally
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Message: 5
Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2004 00:01:14 -0500
From: Sally Caves <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Book Review & a comment on KÃlen
Hi, Sylvia! It's wonderful to see you back! Good luck on the Ke'len
revisions!
Sally
----- Original Message -----
From: "Sylvia Sotomayor" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, November 08, 2004 9:26 PM
Subject: Book Review & a comment on KÃlen
> Hi all,
>
> I just finished reading a paperback by John McWhorter called The Power of
> Babel. In it, he writes about the sheer variety & diversity of language
> while
> discussing dialects, language change, dialects, areal linguistics,
> dialects,
> pidgins, creoles, semi-creoles, dialects, social distinctions, formality
> distinctions, written vs oral distinctions, and more about dialects. I
> liked
> it a lot.
>
> In reading this, my occasional stray thought that KÃlen is actually a
> creole
> language between human (probably English, or something Western-European)
> and
> Terjemar-an (the planet) has solidified into fact. So, I can now begin
> with
> figuring out KÃlen's antecedents. I'm fairly sure Terjemaran has tones,
> too.
> In a couple of years, when I have something solid enough to present
> <grin>,
> I'll let you know what it looks like.
>
> -Sylvia
> --
> Sylvia Sotomayor
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> KÃlen language info can be found at:
> http://home.netcom.com/~sylvia1/Kelen/kelen.html
>
> This post may contain the following:
> Ã (a-acute) Ã (e-acute) Ã (i-acute)
> Ã (o-acute) Ã (u-acute) Ã (n-tilde)
>
> Ãe Ãarra anmÃrienne cà Ãe reharra anmÃrienne lÃ;
>
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________________________________________________________________________
Message: 6
Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2004 21:15:37 -0800
From: "B. Garcia" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Spelling pronunciations
On Tue, 9 Nov 2004 11:42:10 +1100, Tristan Mc Leay
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> (I'll never believe anyone puts an /r/ in 'wash' until I've heard it
> with my own ears and I'm satisfied they're not faking it :)
Well, there's no reason for Grandma to fake it on purpose. She'll do
it when she's not thinking about what she's saying. It's only when
she's being careful that it doesn't show up.I've only ever heard it in
conjunction with an /S/, never a /tS/ as Sally says.
--
You can turn away from me
but there's nothing that'll keep me here you know
And you'll never be the city guy
Any more than I'll be hosting The Scooby Show
Scooby Show - Belle and Sebastian
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 7
Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2004 21:44:14 -0800
From: Sylvia Sotomayor <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Book Review & a comment on KÃlen
Hi Sally (& all),
I'm only sort of lurking, skimming the posts. In the meantime, I've been
working on a long-ish translation project.
http://www.terjemar.net/sarahb.php
The page source contains the original tale that I am adapting.
-Sylvia
On Monday 08 November 2004 21:01, Sally Caves wrote:
> Hi, Sylvia! It's wonderful to see you back! Good luck on the Ke'len
> revisions!
>
> Sally
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Sylvia Sotomayor" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Monday, November 08, 2004 9:26 PM
> Subject: Book Review & a comment on KÃlen
>
> > Hi all,
> >
> > I just finished reading a paperback by John McWhorter called The Power of
> > Babel. In it, he writes about the sheer variety & diversity of language
> > while
> > discussing dialects, language change, dialects, areal linguistics,
> > dialects,
> > pidgins, creoles, semi-creoles, dialects, social distinctions, formality
> > distinctions, written vs oral distinctions, and more about dialects. I
> > liked
> > it a lot.
> >
> > In reading this, my occasional stray thought that KÃlen is actually a
> > creole
> > language between human (probably English, or something Western-European)
> > and
> > Terjemar-an (the planet) has solidified into fact. So, I can now begin
> > with
> > figuring out KÃlen's antecedents. I'm fairly sure Terjemaran has tones,
> > too.
> > In a couple of years, when I have something solid enough to present
> > <grin>,
> > I'll let you know what it looks like.
> >
> > -Sylvia
> > --
> > Sylvia Sotomayor
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >
> > KÃlen language info can be found at:
> > http://home.netcom.com/~sylvia1/Kelen/kelen.html
> >
> > This post may contain the following:
> > Ã (a-acute) Ã (e-acute) Ã (i-acute)
> > Ã (o-acute) Ã (u-acute) Ã (n-tilde)
> >
> > Ãe Ãarra anmÃrienne cà Ãe reharra anmÃrienne lÃ;
--
Sylvia Sotomayor
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
KÃlen language info can be found at:
http://home.netcom.com/~sylvia1/Kelen/kelen.html
This post may contain the following:
à (a-acute) à (e-acute) à (i-acute)
à (o-acute) à (u-acute) à (n-tilde)
Ãe Ãarra anmÃrienne cà Ãe reharra anmÃrienne lÃ;
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 8
Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2004 00:43:02 -0500
From: Roger Mills <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: CHAT Re: Spelling pronunciations (multiple)
Tristan and others have written:
> >>/@gejn(st)/ seems British to me, and
> >>/Et/ comes across as an archaic vulgarism, the sort of thing my father
> >>(1904-1993) said when he was being funny.
> >>
To us midwesterners back in the 40s, [@'gejn ~@'gejnst] was hoity-toity
Eastern, positively reeking of Wall Street upper-crustism and FDR. (I've
gotten over that, however; but I say [@'gIn ~@'gInst)
------------------------------------------
> >
> >My grandmother (born 1920) was raised on a farm in the north eastern
> >corner of Kansas, and she often says /Et/ where I say /ejt/. To me the
> >use of /Et/ has a Kansan quality to it, much like using /wArS/ for
> >/wAS/
Ooooh, [Et], along with [ejnt] and [wArS ~wOrS]-- stigmatized x 1000!!!! The
bane of school-marms.
I assure you, [wOrS] occurs; it's one of those quaint Southernisms that we
Northerners find amusing, in our condescending way. Happily, even some
Southerners make fun of it-- my good friend from Texas used to say (with a
smirk) "I'll warsh the dishes, you can [rEntS] (=rinse) them". Also, "Let's
have a [drANk]" (drink). And wasn't there a song not so long ago called
"Wild Thang"? And the laundromat in the college town I once worked in had
WARSHATERIA in big letters on its front window.
------------------------------
Re Vest. In the US, mainly the 3d piece of a 3-piece suit; in pinstripes,
much favored by the banking community. It used to be (but probably isn't
anymore) somewhat gauche to appear in your vest without the suit coat.
For a while something called a "sweater-vest" was popular; it buttoned up
the front and was essentially a Cardigan sweater without sleeves. (Old joke
from a friend in the ad game: "Not a soap! Not a cream! It's a
soap-cream!!")
When I was a child, an _undershirt_ was always white, flimsy cotton, with
little shoulder straps and a scooped neck. It was very gauche, indeed
dÃclassÃ, to appear in one in public (immigrants did.....).
That seems to be your singlet, UK vest, current US slang wife-beater.
Singlet in the US (?) seems to refer mainly to the one-piece garment that
HS, collegiate and Olympic wrestlers wear.
Nowadays, "tank-top" is the same thing, only in colors and somewhat more
substantial fabric, and sufficiently stylish that one can wear them in
public. Like stretch pants and short shorts, however, some people
shouldn't..........
Sometime after WW 2, the T-shirt became popular as an undergarment; perhaps
because they were issued to our troops in the war?? They usurped the name
"undershirt". For a long time, they too were white only, and somewhat more
acceptable in public, unless you had your cigarette pack rolled-up in the
sleeve, which marked you as a hood or Juvenile Delinquent.... Nowadays of
course they come in all colors and often Make a Statement.
A T-shirt without sleeves (sometimes form-fitting) is a "muscle shirt".
Ain't fashion fun!?
(Hmph, just noticed: in order to make my keyboard "international", I had to
set it to "Canadian"-- so now it's telling me that "favored" and "colors" in
the above are mis-spelled.)
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Message: 9
Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2004 06:56:08 +0100
From: Philip Newton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Disgusting thread... ;-)
Since Steen hasn't replied yet (at least, not in this thread), I'll
give it a shot.
On Fri, 5 Nov 2004 18:17:58 -0500, Pascal A. Kramm <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
[about Jan van Steenbergen]
> So where do you come from? You have a Dutch name,
and AFAIK he's Dutch.
> a British email address,
I don't know why this is. Possibly because yahoo.co.uk allows you to
forward email, whereas, say, yahoo.com does not allow this for free
accounts (you have to use their webmail interface).
> a French website
Because Christophe Grandsire, who is French (but living in the
Netherlands IIRC) has an account a .free.fr and could give out
subdomains to friends, including Steen.
> and an indeciphrable consonant cluster as introduction line...
The two 'y's in 'skrzypszy' are vowels; the word is a Wenedyk form of
Latin 'scripsit', I believe. (Wenedyk being, very roughly speaking,
Latin with Polish phonology, and one of Steen's conlangs.)
Cheers,
--
Philip Newton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Watch the Reply-To!
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Message: 10
Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2004 21:53:21 -0800
From: "B. Garcia" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: CHAT Re: Spelling pronunciations (multiple)
On Tue, 9 Nov 2004 00:43:02 -0500, Roger Mills <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Ooooh, [Et], along with [ejnt] and [wArS ~wOrS]-- stigmatized x 1000!!!! The
> bane of school-marms.
>
> I assure you, [wOrS] occurs; it's one of those quaint Southernisms that we
> Northerners find amusing, in our condescending way. Happily, even some
> Southerners make fun of it-- my good friend from Texas used to say (with a
> smirk) "I'll warsh the dishes, you can [rEntS] (=rinse) them". Also, "Let's
> have a [drANk]" (drink). And wasn't there a song not so long ago called
> "Wild Thang"? And the laundromat in the college town I once worked in had
> WARSHATERIA in big letters on its front window.
I've always thought it was funny to hear :). But then again I make fun
of the "California accent" by going over the top: "/lajk euw m@
gA:wd/!"
Anyway, i do wish that my great grandmother had taught my Grandmother
how to speak fluent Dutch, and my grandfather his dialect of German he
grew up with. Then my mother could have raised my brothers and I with
three languages (English, Dutch, German)
--
You can turn away from me
but there's nothing that'll keep me here you know
And you'll never be the city guy
Any more than I'll be hosting The Scooby Show
Scooby Show - Belle and Sebastian
________________________________________________________________________
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Message: 11
Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2004 00:56:38 -0500
From: Roger Mills <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: English l and Spanish ll
Adam Supercalifragilisticexpialidocious wrote:
> Is the English l represented as SAMPA IPA /l`/ or /l/ (since I've noticed
> the
> difference between most language's l's and English's l's)
Tristan has answered this.
> Also, is the Spanish ll (in the accents where it sounds similar to /dZ/)
> /z*/
> or /L/?
>
Tristan again: "In at least some it actually is [dZ)]."
Yes. It is more often [Z] (like "j" in French), or even voiceless [S]
according to some.
"I'm not sure what you mean by
'/z*/', the star isn't a Sampa, X-Sampa or CXS modifier character."
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Message: 12
Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2004 01:10:51 -0500
From: Roger Mills <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: CHAT Re: Spelling pronunciations (multiple)
Erratum. Oh dear, the quota..........
I wrote:
>"Let's have a [drANk]" (drink).
Should have been: [dr&Nk]
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Message: 13
Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2004 06:57:02 +0000
From: Ray Brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: CHAT of vests & tortoises (was: Spelling pronunciations)
On Monday, November 8, 2004, at 01:54 , John Cowan wrote:
> Ray Brown scripsit:
>
>> again /@'gejn/ or /@'gEn/ (so also with _against_)
>> ate /ejt/ or /Et/
>
> I have only /@gEn(st)/ and /ejt/. /@gejn(st)/ seems British to me,
It may well be - and not all Britishers use it, but it is common.
> and
> /Et/ comes across as an archaic vulgarism, the sort of thing my father
> (1904-1993) said when he was being funny.
Oh dear - I'm archaic and vulgar ;)
[snip]
>> I've been talking all the time about 'British waistcoats', which you
>> LeftPondians quaintly call 'vests'.
>
> By "quaintly" do you imply that "British waistcoats" were once called
> "vests" there as well, as trousers were once (and still by us) called
> "pants"?
No. I meant it sounds odd to us when you refer to a garment which is
clearly meant to be seen by a word meaning "wife=beater". The older, now
obsolete, meanings in English were 'garment', 'article of clothing' (which
is exactly what Latin _uestis_ means); 'robe', 'dress'; an ecclesiastic
vestment.
In fact over here those of us that speak of such things still talk of a
priest _vesting_ meaning that he is putting on vestments, and when he has
finished he is said to be _vested_. But the noun is no longer used to mean
'vestment'.
As far as I can tell, the word seems to have acquired its current meanings
separately on each side of the Atlantic.
[snip]
>> Over here, as I guess you know, 'vest' always means
>> what you call an 'undervest'
>
> Recte "undershirt".
Sorry - confused by the 'pants' ~ 'underpants' business.
> Now undershirts come in two varieties, those which
> are essentially T-shirts (but with short enough sleeves that they are
> not visible even under short-sleeved shirts), and those which have mere
> straps running over the shoulders, in current slang called "wife-beaters"
> for reasons too disgusting to go into.
>
> I would conjecture that by "vest" you Rightpondians mean primarily the
> latter type, and only secondarily (if at all) the former type?
You conjecture correctly. The former type is just a T-shirt AFAIK - but is
not uncommonly worn under a shirt. In fact in the summer, the wife-beater
type is often worn by certain types under nothing at all :)
> I can
> see the comparison between the latter type and actual waistcoats/vests,
> but it seems to me the essence of a waistcoat/vest is its sleevelessness,
> whereas T-shirts most definitely do have sleeves. (I hope this is clear.
> )
Yes.
>
>>> I've also heard a Frenchified [-wAz] in British English.
>>
>> Ach!!!! How pretentious & ignorant can a person get?!
>
> Well, to be fair, some who use it are probably p. & i., and others just i.
Maybe - but not entirely i. otherwise they wouldn't know that -oise is
[waz] in French; just ignorant enough, I suppose, to think that 'tortoise'
must be a French word 'cause it ends in -oise :)
>
>> I think the second syllable got changed through the influence of
>> _porpoise_.
>
> So it seems, yes.
>
>> The French for _tortoise_ is in fact _tortue_ <-- late Latin _tortu:ca_
>
> This "tortuca" itself has an interesting etymology; it's from _tartarucha_
Hence Italian _tartaruga_ :)
> 'of Tartarus (fem.)' < Greek, distorted (:-) by _tortus_ 'twisted',
> referring to the animal's feet.
I see the Spanish _tortuga_ is also from _tortu:ca_.
But I had not realized the etymology of _tortuca_ till you told me - and
only discovered the Italian after reading your email. (But Italian also
has _testuggine_ from the 'proper' Latin word - see below)
In fact the Greek adjective _tartarouchos_ meant "controlling Tartaros
[the netherworld]" <-- tartaro- + -ech- (the root of echo:/ekho: = I have)
. In the best ancient Greek the feminine was the same as the masculine. In
fact, I guess it was originally _he: tartaroukhos khelo:ne:_ = the
tartaros-controlling tortoise, referring to one variety of tortoise and
that it was shortened to _tartaroukhe:_ and Latinized as slang term
*tartaru:c(h)a and applied to all tortoises.
I wonder why it was associated with Tartaros - the land of the dead. I
suppose because it burried itself in the Autumn/Fall and came back from
Tartaros in the Spring.
But it seems very silly of the late Latin speakers when Latin had a
perfectly good word of its own for the animal, namely _testu:do:_ (gen.
testu:dinis).
But then ancient Greek also had a perfectly good word of its own, namely:
khelo:ne: (fem) which, now pronounced [CE'lOni], is still used in the
modern language.
Ray
===============================================
http://home.freeuk.com/ray.brown
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
===============================================
Anything is possible in the fabulous Celtic twilight,
which is not so much a twilight of the gods
as of the reason." [JRRT, "English and Welsh" ]
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Message: 14
Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2004 06:56:47 +0000
From: Ray Brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: /k/ in i.t.a.
On Monday, November 8, 2004, at 01:57 , Muke Tever wrote:
> On Mon, 8 Nov 2004 13:09:55 +0100, Jean-FranÃois Colson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> BE> wrote:
>> Hi all
>>
>> I see that in Pitman Initial Teaching Alphabet, which is a phonemic
>> alphabet,
Not phonemic in the strict sense. See below.
>> different characters
>> are used for the c of cat and the k of key.
>> Is there any difference between those characters?
Nope - both denote /k/.
>> If not, how are they used?
|c| is used where /k/ is spelled |c| in the traditional spelling and |k|
is used where traditional spelling has |k| :)
> It is likely that the system is not two-way phonemic (i.e., one grapheme
> per sound and one sound per grapheme) but just one-way phonemic (one sound
> per letter).
Spot on!
> This is sensible for an alphabet that is used to teach people
> to read.
Yes, the system was not developed as "yet another reformed English
spelling", otherwise some things would surely have been done differently.
It was as strictly an _initial teaching alphabet_ in order to ease the
transition into the more difficult un-phonemic traditional spelling.
> Notice also that the sound /z/ is spelled two different ways,
> with a regular "z" for /z/ spelled "z" and with a reversed "z" (or, if you
> like, an "s" with sharp corners) for /z/ spelled "s".
Quite so.
> (Indeed, on the ITA webpage under "what is ITA" it says "The alphabet
> adheres closely to traditional orthography. The symbols are lowercase.
> Certain conventional English spellings have been retained such as the c
> and k, which have the same sound.)
Yep. It was very much in vogue some in IIRC the 1970s & possibly 80s. But
it seems to have fallen out of favor. I think it was found that it
actually confused some kids as the transition got made rather than helped
them.
Ray
===============================================
http://home.freeuk.com/ray.brown
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
===============================================
Anything is possible in the fabulous Celtic twilight,
which is not so much a twilight of the gods
as of the reason." [JRRT, "English and Welsh" ]
________________________________________________________________________
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Message: 15
Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2004 23:55:55 -0700
From: Muke Tever <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: English l and Spanish ll
Adam Supercalifragilisticexpialidocious <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Is the English l represented as SAMPA IPA /l`/ or /l/ (since I've noticed the
> difference between most language's l's and English's l's)
In SAMPA, /l/. In X-SAMPA, either [l] (clear L) or [5] (dark L)
depending on the position of the word.
> Also, is the Spanish ll (in the accents where it sounds similar to /dZ/) /z*/
> or /L/?
In my experience, /j\/ (voiced palatal fricative)--or, given strong
emphasis, the palatal affricate /J\j\/. They are certainly not the same,
at any rate, as English /Z/ and /dZ/ (though they sound like it to English
speakers).
*Muke!
--
website: http://frath.net/
LiveJournal: http://kohath.livejournal.com/
deviantArt: http://kohath.deviantart.com/
FrathWiki, a conlang and conculture wiki:
http://wiki.frath.net/
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 16
Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2004 06:57:05 +0000
From: Ray Brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Need some help with terms: was "rhotic miscellany"
On Monday, November 8, 2004, at 02:06 , Sally Caves wrote:
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Ray Brown" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
[snip]
>> OOOOPS!!!!
>>
>> Looks like some of us have been writing at cross purposes - probably not
>> for the first time in this thread :)
>>
>> I cannot answer for John, but I've been assuming that Sally was talking
>> about the |r| in |rack|, not the |r| in |car|. While I have an alveolar
>> approximant for the first, I have no consonant at all for the second!
>
> Well naturally! You're English! :)
Well, from south east England - not all my fellow countrymen are
non-rhotic :)
> I was actually talking about all |r|s
> as I pronounce them, and as many do in America,
Ah, so I was only half mistaken!
> but it seems that the way I
> put it, yesterday, only final |r| got discussed. For me, there is tongue
> curling in all of them, but to different degrees. I made a list of |r|s
> below as I pronounce them:
Wow - I have far less variety. Basically alveolar approximant if its
prevocalic or intervocalic, and zero or [EMAIL PROTECTED] if post vocalic. The
only
variation is the prevocalic following an initial consonant, e.g. pr-, tr-
where there'll be some slight modification caused by the preceeding
consonant.
[snip]
>
> I toyed with the madcap idea of making a huge soundbyte of my |r|s, |r|s
> as
> I've heard them in Bucks County north Philly, as I've heard them in
> England
> and Wales, and as our honorable California Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger
> pronounces them. :) I'm clearly trying to escape from reading
> dissertations.
Yep - a situation I remember only too well :)
Grit your teeth and read those dissertations - there might even be an
interesting one among them ;)
===============================================
On Monday, November 8, 2004, at 06:06 , Roger Mills wrote:
> Ray Brown wrote:
>> I cannot answer for John, but I've been assuming that Sally was talking
>> about the |r| in |rack|, not the |r| in |car|.
>
> No, it's always been about post-vocalic r. See the quote below...
Apparently not so - see Sally's response above. It seems that you have
also been half-mistaken :)
[snip]
>> But as Marcos has written, and I agreed with him, this usage is confusing
>> as it is *not* the same usage as IPA point of articulation of consonants.
>> IPA charts name he feature denoted by the diacritic which CXS represents
>> thus [`] (my mailer doesn't seem to like the actual IPA symbol) as
>> 'rhotocity'.
>>
>> I suspect this is where the confusion has come into this thread. We have
>> not all been writing about the same thing or using the term 'retroflex'
>> in
>> the same way.
>
> Personally, I don't find it confusing; retroflexed can refer to a state of
> the tongue (in vowel articulations) as well as to the POA.
But I wrote 'retroflex'. I agree the r-colored vowels are 'retroflexed' -
and if we were careful to distinguish 'retroflex' and 'retroflexed' it
would not be confusing. But in practice, the two are not carefully
distinguished.
It's a bit like (Brit) English 'mince meat' & 'minced meat' - very
different things, but every so often confused by the ignorant with
humorous and/or embarrassing results.
(For those unfamiliar with the terms:
minced meat = meat that has been minced (cut up into very small pieces)
mince meat = a mixture of raisons, candied peel & usually spices & brandy
- used in the making of mince-pies round about Christmas time)
[snip]
> That may be true of those dialects; IMO it's not the case in Amer.Engl.,
> at
> least not in monosyllables like "car, ear, core" etc. Below is a quote
> from
> a long msg. I sent yesterday (Subj: "back to rhotic miscellany";
> apparently
> it reached the list since Charlie replied to it, but it has yet to come
> back
> to me. It's in the archive in the Nov. Week 1 list). In any case, I'm
> suggesting that -Vr# ~-VrC# sequences might better be viewed as diphthongs
> involving the centralized/rhotic [EMAIL PROTECTED] (IPA schwa with hook)
I agree very much with this as a _phonemic_ analysis. IME my non-rhotic
fellow speakers, unless they have some knowledge of phonetics (and most do
not), are convinced they pronounce an /r/ in words like _cart_ [k_hA:t].
They seem to think the difference between the vowels in _cat_ and _cart_
is because the second has an /r/ in it, i.e. [A:] is analyzed as /ar/.
This is of course diachronically correct, tho in the case of us
non-rhotics not synchronically correct.
Certainly _here_ is IME [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED] But there is a
tendency in south
east England to make the these sounds simple low vowels. As a boy I
pronounced _paw_, _pour_ and _poor_ all the same way [p_hO:]. Now, having
lived in other parts of Britain, I say _poor_ as [EMAIL PROTECTED] (a centering
diphthong), but [p_hO:] is still common in this neck of the woods.
[snip]
> No to both questions, just speaking for self. For one thing, initial r
> usually involves a slight bit of rounding (note that children just
> beginning
> to speak often confuse onset /r/ (and /l/) with /w/).
True - and one form of speech defect causes some people to pronounce
initial /r/ like [w] (and in my part of the world, post vocalic /l/ is
nearly aways pronounced [w] in colloquial speech :)
> Oh me, oh my, this poor bedraggled horse!!
Yes, I cannot help feeling we have practically flogged this poor horse to
death. Maybe, it's time to return to Conlanging (and Sally to her
dissertations :)
Ray
===============================================
http://home.freeuk.com/ray.brown
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
===============================================
Anything is possible in the fabulous Celtic twilight,
which is not so much a twilight of the gods
as of the reason." [JRRT, "English and Welsh" ]
________________________________________________________________________
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Message: 17
Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2004 01:44:47 -0600
From: "Thomas R. Wier" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Spelling pronunciations (was: rhotic miscellany)
From: "B. Garcia" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> On Mon, 8 Nov 2004 08:54:15 -0500, John Cowan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > /@gejn(st)/ seems British to me, and
> > /Et/ comes across as an archaic vulgarism, the sort of thing my father
> > (1904-1993) said when he was being funny.
>
> My grandmother (born 1920) was raised on a farm in the north eastern
> corner of Kansas, and she often says /Et/ where I say /ejt/. To me the
> use of /Et/ has a Kansan quality to it, much like using /wArS/ for
> /wAS/
More likely, it is more characteristic of the upper Southern /
Apalachian dialects from which Kansan derives. Certainly,
hypercorrection to /wArS/ "wash" would only arise in a nonrhotic
dialect; this suggests something no further than about 100-200
miles from the Atlantic, either East- or Gulf Coast.
ObConlang: If I get any time this weekend, I'll be posting a
comparison of weak-crossover phenomena in Phaleran an C'ali,
and certain kinds of thematic inversion in C'ali.
==========================================================================
Thomas Wier "I find it useful to meet my subjects personally,
Dept. of Linguistics because our secret police don't get it right
University of Chicago half the time." -- octogenarian Sheikh Zayed of
1010 E. 59th Street Abu Dhabi, to a French reporter.
Chicago, IL 60637
________________________________________________________________________
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Message: 18
Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2004 07:50:29 +0000
From: Jan van Steenbergen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Small relay
--- Sally Caves skrzypszy:
> Yann, you do know that there is whole listserv devoted to Relays,
> set up by Irina Rempt? [EMAIL PROTECTED] Perhaps somebody else
> can give the subscription information, because I've forgotten it.
But of course! ;)
Visit <http://www.valdyas.org/mailman/listinfo/relay> and see for
yourself...
> If what you want is a small one, we could do it here. But the list
> was created to avoid cluttering up the CONLANG list with our
> comments about it.
Yeah, I agree. Besides, most people who are interested in
participating are subscribed to the Relay list. It's the right place.
> As for the rules of the Relay, Charlie, I posted them here:
>
> http://www.frontiernet.net/~scaves/relayrule.html
... a page I brutally stole from when I wrote my own Relay pages
(see: <http://steen.free.fr/relay10/> under "Introduction" and
"Rules")
Jan
=====
"If you think you are too small to make a difference, try sleeping in a closed
room with a mosquito."
http://steen.free.fr/
___________________________________________________________ALL-NEW Yahoo!
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Message: 19
Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2004 08:36:32 +0000
From: Jan van Steenbergen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Disgusting thread... ;-)
--- Philip Newton skrzypszy:
> Since Steen hasn't replied yet (at least, not in this thread), I'll
> give it a shot.
Actually, I completely missed Pascal's message. I'll reply to it
below.
> (Pascal A. Kramm [about Jan van Steenbergen]:)
> > So where do you come from? You have a Dutch name,
>
> and AFAIK he's Dutch.
Yep. Every drop in my blood is Dutch, AND I AM PROUD OF IT!!! :)))
(don't take that last thing too seriously)
I should probably add that I live in the Netherlands, too. In the
town of Zaandam, to be precise.
> > a British email address,
>
> I don't know why this is. Possibly because yahoo.co.uk allows you
> to forward email, whereas, say, yahoo.com does not allow this for
> free accounts (you have to use their webmail interface).
Actually, it was merely a coincidence. Apparently I made some mistake
when I entered my data the first time. Not that I regret: with a
British account I got a little more space than with an American
account (there's no Dutch version, unfortunately), and I definitely
get less spam.
> > a French website
>
> Because Christophe Grandsire, who is French (but living in the
> Netherlands IIRC) has an account a .free.fr and could give out
> subdomains to friends, including Steen.
True. Several others of us have taken advantage of that possibility
too (David Peterson, Christopher Wright, to name a few). Now it is
unfortunately over, because free.fr has changed its policies.
> > and an indeciphrable consonant cluster as introduction line...
>
> The two 'y's in 'skrzypszy' are vowels; the word is a Wenedyk form
> of Latin 'scripsit', I believe. (Wenedyk being, very roughly
> speaking, Latin with Polish phonology, and one of Steen's
conlangs.)
Again, correct. If I ever make it to president, minister or Euro
commissioner, I promise that I will appoint thee to my official
spokesman! :))
--- Pascal A. Kramm skrzypszy:
> >Yeah? Were exactly, if I may ask?
>
> North-Rine Westphalia, or Ruhrgebiet (Ruhr area), to be more
> precise.
I sort of knew that; actually, I was wondering about the city. I'm a
regular guest in the Ruhrgebiet myself, because my mother-in-law
lives in Essen.
Cheers,
Jan
=====
"If you think you are too small to make a difference, try sleeping in a closed
room with a mosquito."
http://steen.free.fr/
___________________________________________________________ALL-NEW Yahoo!
Messenger - all new features - even more fun! http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
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Message: 20
Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2004 11:11:14 +0100
From: Andreas Johansson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Spelling pronunciations
Quoting "Pascal A. Kramm" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> On Tue, 9 Nov 2004 08:11:42 +1100, Tristan Mc Leay
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> >Ray Brown wrote:
> >
> >> So British _vest_ is the American _undershirt_? Sort of logical, I
> >> guess -
> >> except that over here there are some guys who, when the weathers warmer,
> >> don't wear the vest/undershirt under anything :)
> >
> >I think I finally understand! (I've always heard people say that one
> >groups 'vest' is another's 'waistcoat', but had no idea what either
> >group meant by either term.) Australians call these devices _singlets_
> >unless I'm mistaken ('singlet' is appropriate for most sleeveless tops).
> >And I think we use the American meaning for _vest_.
>
> In German we have the word "Weste", which only refers to some sort of
> sleeveless jackets always worn on top of other top garments, no more.
That would be about the same as a Swedish _vÃst_. A sleeveless t-shirt-like
garment would be a _topp_ or a _linne_.
Andreas
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Message: 21
Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2004 11:40:47 +0100
From: Andreas Johansson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: CXS changes
Quoting Herman Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> I agree with using [P] for [p\]; we don't need it for [v\] any more, and
> I wouldn't be surprised if it's already been used for [p\] once or twice
> before.
Anymore? [P] and [v\] for the labiodental approximant were both introduced in
the X-SAMPA document; I can't see how the need could have changed since.
Needless to say, I don't think there was any need for [P] for this use in the
first place.
Various posters on this list, incl yours truly, have used [P] for the bilabial
fric on this list. Infact, yours truly is in this very moment thinking to
replace [p\] with [P] on his website to increase the weight of usage in favour
of a change to the CXS.
Andreas
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Message: 22
Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2004 05:49:40 -0500
From: "J. 'Mach' Wust" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: CXS changes
On Mon, 8 Nov 2004 22:03:52 -0600, Herman Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>Tristan Mc Leay wrote:
>
>> - If anyone can think of a replacement symbol for one of them, and
>> then have <J\> and <j\> as synonyms, that's my preferred choice in
>> my role as maintainer of CXS. This would probably be the same idea
>> as how <t_s> and <ts)> are synonyms, but no-one ever uses <t_s>
>> anymore and I might as well remove it from my chart now that <ts)>
>> has been so successful. (Unless I've forgotten anyone?)
>
>Is + used for anything in CXS? We could use it for putting a stroke
>through a character in general: [j+] for [J\], [h+] for [X\], [?+] for
>the epiglottal plosive symbol (who remembers what [>\] stands for?), and
>so on. (This is essentially how it's used in APA.)
I like this idea! BTW, what's APA?
[EMAIL PROTECTED]:
j. 'mach' wust
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Message: 23
Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2004 03:01:38 -0800
From: "B. Garcia" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Spelling pronunciations (was: rhotic miscellany)
> > My grandmother (born 1920) was raised on a farm in the north eastern
> > corner of Kansas, and she often says /Et/ where I say /ejt/. To me the
> > use of /Et/ has a Kansan quality to it, much like using /wArS/ for
> > /wAS/
Something else characteristic when Grandma uses /Et/: She uses it
within the context of "Have you ate (/h&v ju Et/)?" instead of "Have
you eaten (/h&v ju '[EMAIL PROTECTED]/)?" (which is what I believe is my
pronunciation of "eaten" is)
--
You can turn away from me
but there's nothing that'll keep me here you know
And you'll never be the city guy
Any more than I'll be hosting The Scooby Show
Scooby Show - Belle and Sebastian
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Message: 24
Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2004 22:25:43 +1100
From: Tristan Mc Leay <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: CXS changes
Andreas Johansson wrote:
>Various posters on this list, incl yours truly, have used [P] for the bilabial
>fric on this list. Infact, yours truly is in this very moment thinking to
>replace [p\] with [P] on his website to increase the weight of usage in favour
>of a change to the CXS.
>
>
I think I may be guilty of the same, but through error and not
intention, having learnt Kirsh before X-Sampa. I am fully in favor of
this change. If the two currently proposed are implemented, we get:
Stop Fric
p P
b B
t T (dental)
d D (dental)
c C
j\ J\ [Alternative proposal: j+ J\]*
k x
g G
q X
G\ R [Any proposals to replace the stop with <r>? :]
? h
As you can see, the pattern would fully break down in everything from
and behind the velars, but nothing can be done with them...
* If this is adopted, it'd probably make sense for the as-yet
unsymbolled unvoiced pharyngeal stop to be <x+>; its fricative is
<X\>... I'm going to say, though, that a new modifier would want use
before it gets added. PS: considering the <\ vs >\ pair, ?+ is no easier
to remember than >\ (the angle bracket points in the direction of the
curve of the question-mark-like letter). I imagine the problem with >\
is that, well, whoever uses an epiglottal fricative? Anyway, both >\ and
?+ are evil to begin with...
PS: At the moment, there is insufficient agreement to do anything,
except possibly move <P> to <p\>. My advice for those barracking for one
thing or another: use it or lose it.
--
Tristan
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Message: 25
Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2004 07:35:53 -0500
From: John Cowan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Spelling pronunciations (was: rhotic miscellany)
Thomas R. Wier scripsit:
> More likely, it is more characteristic of the upper Southern /
> Apalachian dialects from which Kansan derives. Certainly,
> hypercorrection to /wArS/ "wash" would only arise in a nonrhotic
> dialect; this suggests something no further than about 100-200
> miles from the Atlantic, either East- or Gulf Coast.
I associate [wOr\S] and relatives with Western Pennsylvania; for
whatever reason, PA is alone among the Eastern Seaboard states
in having no non-rhotic area. Note that the [r\] appears only
in words for which I have [wO] rather than [wA]: so "wash" has it
but "watch" does not. (I have not heard it in "water" either,
but my pronunciation of "water" is terminally confused.)
--
John Cowan www.ccil.org/~cowan www.reutershealth.com [EMAIL PROTECTED]
In might the Feanorians / that swore the unforgotten oath
brought war into Arvernien / with burning and with broken troth.
and Elwing from her fastness dim / then cast her in the waters wide,
but like a mew was swiftly borne, / uplifted o'er the roaring tide.
--the Earendillinwe
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