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There are 25 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1. Re: most looked-up words
From: Henrik Theiling <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2. Re: most looked-up words
From: Andreas Johansson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3. Re: USAGE: Vowel recordings
From: Chris Bates <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4. Re: most looked-up words
From: Henrik Theiling <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5. Re: The Need for Debate
From: John Cowan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6. Re: most looked-up words
From: Tristan Mc Leay <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7. Re: most looked-up words
From: Keith Gaughan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8. Re: Looking at the Cratylus; was: nomothete
From: Muke Tever <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9. Souvlaki (was most looked-up words)
From: caeruleancentaur <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10. Re: Souvlaki (was most looked-up words)
From: Tristan Mc Leay <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11. Ahh vowels.
From: "B. Garcia" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12. Re: Souvlaki (was most looked-up words)
From: "B. Garcia" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13. Re: most looked-up words
From: "B. Garcia" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14. Re: most looked-up words
From: "Elyse M. Grasso" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15. Re: Looking at the Cratylus; was: nomothete
From: Sally Caves <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16. Re: Looking at the Cratylus; was: nomothete
From: Sally Caves <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17. Re: Souvlaki (was most looked-up words)
From: "Mark J. Reed" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18. Re: Souvlaki (was most looked-up words)
From: "Mark J. Reed" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19. Re: The Need for Debate
From: Steg Belsky <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20. OT: Shapes of Fast Food (Re: Souvlaki (was most looked-up words))
From: Henrik Theiling <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21. Re: most looked-up words
From: "Mark J. Reed" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22. Looking for reference material on old Hindu legends.
From: Steven Williams <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23. Xinkutlan revisions
From: Geoff Horswood <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24. Re: nomothete
From: Dan Sulani <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25. Re: Souvlaki (was most looked-up words)
From: Steg Belsky <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
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Message: 1
Date: Tue, 7 Dec 2004 12:08:44 +0100
From: Henrik Theiling <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: most looked-up words
Hi!
Andreas Johansson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>...
> In Germany, it seems to be pronounced as /ji:ros/ with such regularity that
> one
> wonders if someone has carried out a massive educational campaign in modern
> Greek orthography.
Hmm, I never heard that pronunciation. It's usally /'gy:rOs/ or /'gi:rOs/.
**Henrik
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Message: 2
Date: Tue, 7 Dec 2004 12:15:02 +0100
From: Andreas Johansson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: most looked-up words
Quoting Henrik Theiling <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> Hi!
>
> Andreas Johansson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> >...
> > In Germany, it seems to be pronounced as /ji:ros/ with such regularity that
> one
> > wonders if someone has carried out a massive educational campaign in modern
> > Greek orthography.
>
> Hmm, I never heard that pronunciation. It's usally /'gy:rOs/ or /'gi:rOs/.
Might been just students, or a local thing. There's plenty of Greeks in Aachen,
afterall.
Andreas
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Message: 3
Date: Tue, 7 Dec 2004 11:21:09 +0000
From: Chris Bates <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: USAGE: Vowel recordings
>
>> I think of 'holy' etc. with the 'goatee' vowel being a thing of posh
>> old-fashioned British women (or perhaps posh old-fashioned Australian
>> women pretending to be British). I didn't realise it was current amongst
>> any dialects... Very definitely the 'oldie' vowel for me. On a related
>> note, do you distinguish between 'poll' and 'pole' and similar?
>
>
> No distinction between 'poll' and 'pole'.
>
For me poll = /pol/, pole = /powl/, or something like that (so they are
different). There is a slight difference, but the vowel is definitely
different from the o in so. I often get the vowels in SAMPA/IPA/etc a
little wrong, so just for a guide: pole rhymes with soul, bowl, role,
and goal but not with poll, knoll, etc.
> I've uploaded another file, which demonstrates the words:
> "Holy, wholly, holly"
Holy (o the same as in so), wholly (o the same as in pole), and holly (o
the same as in poll).
As for the dialect I speak... I've been told I sound posh by a lot of
people from around here, but here is Nottingham for what it's worth. I
don't speak the local dialect really... some of it really grates. For
example, T --> f.... when I was young I pronounced T perfectly, then I
went to school and lost it to f because of the influence of the other
children, then my parents nagged me constantly til I regained T at age 7
maybe. Also annoying is the insertion k in certain words:
anything = /enIfINk/ not /eniTIN/
and a thousand other things. Maybe it's because my parents nagged me to
speak properly so much when I was young that I supposedly sound posh.
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Message: 4
Date: Tue, 7 Dec 2004 12:30:46 +0100
From: Henrik Theiling <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: most looked-up words
Hi!
Andreas Johansson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> Quoting Henrik Theiling <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
>...
> > Hmm, I never heard that pronunciation. It's usally /'gy:rOs/ or /'gi:rOs/.
>
> Might been just students, or a local thing. There's plenty of Greeks in
> Aachen,
> afterall.
Hmm, Aachen? There are some German dialect that regularly do /g/ ->
[j] in certain contexts that I fail to remember now. I'm also not
sure, but probably '�cher' dialect is one of these. Maybe that's the
profane reason?
(There are also those that regularly do the reverse /j/ -> [g], BTW.
Some people from my home region do this (e.g. [gEts] for /jEtst/
|jetzt|).)
**Henrik
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Message: 5
Date: Tue, 7 Dec 2004 07:18:43 -0500
From: John Cowan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: The Need for Debate
Andreas Johansson scripsit:
> One shouldn't make blanket statements whether the Vikings were
> destructive or not; _some_ certainly were mere destroyers, pillagers
> and killers, who civilization would have done better without; others
> were constructive, setting up cities and trade routes. And, of course,
> most Scandinavians of the period weren't Vikings at all.
The way I like to put it is "Viking is a verb [meaning a gerund, of course]
not a noun". This is false to the grammatical facts, but true to the
historical ones: the same person might be in viking one year and a peaceful
trader the next.
--
First known example of political correctness: John Cowan
"After Nurhachi had united all the other http://www.reutershealth.com
Jurchen tribes under the leadership of the http://www.ccil.org/~cowan
Manchus, his successor Abahai (1592-1643) [EMAIL PROTECTED]
issued an order that the name Jurchen should --S. Robert Ramsey,
be banned, and from then on, they were all The Languages of China
to be called Manchus."
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Message: 6
Date: Tue, 7 Dec 2004 23:29:27 +1100
From: Tristan Mc Leay <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: most looked-up words
On 7 Dec 2004, at 5.43 pm, Thomas R. Wier wrote:
>> Also, ten points to anyone who can tell me what a 'kudo' is.
>
> _kudo_ [k_hudo/@u] is a backformation from _kudos_ [k_hudo/@uz](pl.),
> which is itself a reanalysis of Greek _kudos_ [ku:dOs] 'glory', which
> is usually said to originate in British schoolboy slang.
Thanks to all who answered this question. I'd never've worked it out
myself; I'm familiar with _kudos_ (but not Greek) and have always
pronounced it and (almost) always hear it /kju:dOs/ so the
backformation is totally unintuitive.
As for 'gyros', I think it's normally pronounced /suvla:ki/ hereabouts
(and spelt 'souvlaki'), based on the description. Usually acquired from
fish-and-chips shops.
--
Tristan.
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Message: 7
Date: Tue, 7 Dec 2004 12:46:33 +0000
From: Keith Gaughan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: most looked-up words
Andreas Johansson wrote:
> Quoting John Cowan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
>
>>Tristan Mc Leay scripsit:
>>
>>>I imagination 'defenestration' found it's way because it's such a cool
>>>word, who else would've thought there'd be a word for throwing things
>>>out of windows?
>>
>>It also has an additional sense nowadays, not yet recognized by general
>>dictionaries: "to remove Windows from a computer and replace it with
>>a libre operating system."
>
> The first thing I heard this usage, I thought the poor soul had thrown his
> computer out of the window in frustration. I still think it _should_ mean that
> with reference to computers.
Why? Surely it can apply to both as they both entail removing windows
with a computer.
K. :-)
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Message: 8
Date: Tue, 7 Dec 2004 06:24:46 -0700
From: Muke Tever <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Looking at the Cratylus; was: nomothete
On Tue, 7 Dec 2004 01:40:02 -0500, Sally Caves <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Socrates: Ouk ara pantos andros, O Ermogenes, onoma thesthai, alla tinos
> onomatourgon outos d'estin, os eolken, o nomothetus, os de ton demiourgon
> spaniotatos en anthropois gignetai.
> "Then it is not for every man, Hermogenes, to give names (onoma thesthai),
> but for him who may be called the name-maker (onomatourgon); and he, it
> appears, is the lawgiver (nomothetus), who is of all the artisans among men
> the rarest."
>
> (This seems like an argument for prescriptive grammarians!)
>
> What this tells me is that the Greek word for lawgiver has become conflated
> or confused with onomatourgon, simply because of the identification of the
> lawgiver with the namegiver. But technically, nomothete is "law-giver" and
> "onomatothete" or "onomatourge" is "namegiver."
I'm reading through the Perseus version text online here, and it seems to me
that while Hermogenes believes (with modern linguists, apparently) that "no
name belongs to any particular thing by nature, but only by the habit [= Greek
ethos] and custom [= nomos] of those who employ it and who established the
usage,"
Socrates is trying to tell him further that it isn't just to anyone who can
establish a word's usage: it may be that anyone can create a word, or call
horses "men" and men "horses", but only the nomothete (the one who can
establish _nomos_) can be called a skilled onomaturge.
*Muke!
--
website: http://frath.net/
LiveJournal: http://kohath.livejournal.com/
deviantArt: http://kohath.deviantart.com/
FrathWiki, a conlang and conculture wiki:
http://wiki.frath.net/
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Message: 9
Date: Tue, 7 Dec 2004 13:29:58 -0000
From: caeruleancentaur <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Souvlaki (was most looked-up words)
Tristan Mc Leay <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>As for 'gyros', I think it's normally pronounced /suvla:ki/
>hereabouts (and spelt 'souvlaki'), based on the description. Usually
>acquired from fish-and-chips shops.
According to the cookbook "Ethnic Cuisines," souvlaki is the Greek
equivalent of the Turkish shish kebab, i.e., meat (and other things)
skewered and grilled.
The gyro/gyros/hero is a submarine sandwich. I've seen store
marquees announcing that they sell "hero" sandwiches. I've explained
to numerous people that that is the Greek pronunciation (more or
less) of gyro. I didn't realize that the word is properly gyros. I
presume they are called submarine sandwiches (or simply subs, as in
the chain Subway) because of the shape of the roll that's used.
Charlie
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Message: 10
Date: Wed, 8 Dec 2004 00:51:09 +1100
From: Tristan Mc Leay <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Souvlaki (was most looked-up words)
On 8 Dec 2004, at 12.29 am, caeruleancentaur wrote:
> Tristan Mc Leay <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>> As for 'gyros', I think it's normally pronounced /suvla:ki/
>> hereabouts (and spelt 'souvlaki'), based on the description. Usually
>> acquired from fish-and-chips shops.
>
>
> According to the cookbook "Ethnic Cuisines," souvlaki is the Greek
> equivalent of the Turkish shish kebab, i.e., meat (and other things)
> skewered and grilled.
Souvlaki in my usage are certainly not shish kebabs and satisfy your
definition of gyros. I'm stunned to discover there's any other meaning.
And considering how many fish-and-chips shops are run by Greeks, it
seems at least a little bit odd.
Things involving skewers are kebabs, but kebabs can also be
souvlaki-like things except with Turkish bread rather than pita. (I
just said this to Philip, except GMail's insistence of using a
Reply-To: header is shitting me up the wall.)
> The gyro/gyros/hero is a submarine sandwich. I've seen store
> marquees announcing that they sell "hero" sandwiches. I've explained
> to numerous people that that is the Greek pronunciation (more or
> less) of gyro. I didn't realize that the word is properly gyros. I
> presume they are called submarine sandwiches (or simply subs, as in
> the chain Subway) because of the shape of the roll that's used.
Aside from the fact that I wouldn't've thought of describing them as
sandwiches (sandwiches need normal bread to satisfy my definition), I
always assumed Subway was so called because it originated in or near a
subway (presumably in the American sense), and that 'sub' came from
this. Then when you came up with 'submarine sandwich' just now, it
looked like it was some sort of play on Subway's subs.
--
Tristan.
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Message: 11
Date: Tue, 7 Dec 2004 06:01:38 -0800
From: "B. Garcia" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Ahh vowels.
I'm writing pages up for Montreiano, and i forgot that the vowel
system isn't as simple for Montreiano as it is in Spanish. Fortunately
it's not too weird.
The vowels it has:
/a/
/e/
/E/
/i/
/o/
/O/
/u/
/@/
- /E/ and /O/ tend to show up in closed syllables.
- /e/ and /o/ show up in open syllables
- /@/ (represented by e) shows up in final syllables ending in |e|
which usually are only monosyllabic words (in polysyllabic words,
final e generally weakened to the point of being lost, which is why
montreiano has lots of words ending in consonants, such as the word
for "you ate" - "comist" /ko'mist/
- |i, u, and a| - are the three which have one pronunciation each and
are considered "stable"
Long vowels occurred due to the loss of an intervocalic d, which
weakened from /D/ to nothing, bringing two of the same vowels
together. Rather than hiatus, they simply combined into a long vowel.
/a:/ - c� /'ka:/ - each, every
/e:/ - F�r�co /fe:'riko/ - Frederick
/i:/ - ��ta /i:'ota/ - idiot
/o:/ - l� /'lo:/ - mire
/u:/ - I can�t think of any examples for this
Often long vowels take primary stress, but when they don't, the vowel
that does is marked with an acute accent.
The academy sees them as distinct from the short vowels. And considers
them separate, rather than a part of. So, according to the Academy
there are 13 vowels.
About /@/:
Often /@/ and its representative e is dropped when words containing
it are attached to other words. Such as verb forms + direct and
indirect pronouns, or reflexive forms:
Da + me = dam - give me. Spanish: dame
Poner + se = poners - to put on. Spanish: Ponerse
/@/ is also lost when certain function words come into contact with a
word beginning in a vowel:
de + agua = d'agua
Que + eu � faulao = Qu'eu � faulao - What he has spoken.
.
--
You can turn away from me
but there's nothing that'll keep me here you know
And you'll never be the city guy
Any more than I'll be hosting The Scooby Show
Scooby Show - Belle and Sebastian
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Message: 12
Date: Tue, 7 Dec 2004 06:19:22 -0800
From: "B. Garcia" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Souvlaki (was most looked-up words)
On Tue, 7 Dec 2004 13:29:58 -0000, caeruleancentaur
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> The gyro/gyros/hero is a submarine sandwich. I've seen store
> marquees announcing that they sell "hero" sandwiches. I've explained
> to numerous people that that is the Greek pronunciation (more or
> less) of gyro. I didn't realize that the word is properly gyros. I
> presume they are called submarine sandwiches (or simply subs, as in
> the chain Subway) because of the shape of the roll that's used.
>
> Charlie
>
Gyros are nothing like Submarine Sandwiches. They use pita bread and
not a roll and heros are of different ingredients and construction.
Actually its pronunciation to me isn't like hero it's more like /Giro/
or as the owner of the mediterranean market here says /jiro/.
--
You can turn away from me
but there's nothing that'll keep me here you know
And you'll never be the city guy
Any more than I'll be hosting The Scooby Show
Scooby Show - Belle and Sebastian
________________________________________________________________________
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Message: 13
Date: Tue, 7 Dec 2004 06:32:50 -0800
From: "B. Garcia" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: most looked-up words
On Tue, 7 Dec 2004 23:29:27 +1100, Tristan Mc Leay
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> As for 'gyros', I think it's normally pronounced /suvla:ki/ hereabouts
> (and spelt 'souvlaki'), based on the description. Usually acquired from
> fish-and-chips shops.
>
> --
> Tristan.
>
Well, here, people would look at you oddly. Here (Monterey), Souvlaki
is like kebab. Gyros is like a sandwich, or what we Callians call
"wraps".
--
You can turn away from me
but there's nothing that'll keep me here you know
And you'll never be the city guy
Any more than I'll be hosting The Scooby Show
Scooby Show - Belle and Sebastian
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 14
Date: Tue, 7 Dec 2004 09:59:08 -0500
From: "Elyse M. Grasso" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: most looked-up words
On Monday 06 December 2004 07:22 pm, And Rosta wrote:
> http://www.merriam-webster.com/info/04words.htm
>
> lists the top 10 words most looked up in the online dictionary
> (excluding hard-to-spell words like _accommodate_ and words
> whose tabooness imparts a frisson to their looking up).
>
> 1. blog
> 2. incumbent
> 3. electoral
> 4. insurgent
> 5. hurricane
> 6. cicada
> 7. peloton : noun (1951) : the main body of riders in a bicycle race
> 8. partisan
> 9. sovereignty
> 10. defenestration
>
> For most of the entries it's easy to see why they're on the list,
> but _cicada_, _peloton_ (a word wholly new to me) and
> _defenestration_ perplex me. Perhaps in my habitual failure to
> heed the News, I have missed major stories on these topics?
>
> At any rate, I will wager that no conlang has words for all 10.
> My conlang has no word for any of the 10. But one supersized
> all-American kudo to the conlang with the words for the most
> of the 10...
>
> --And.
>
One of the 17-year cicada swarms hatched this year in the Eastern US, rather
spectacularly. They were accompanied by a swarm of news articles only
slightly less noisy.
--
Elyse Grasso
The World of Cherani Station
www.data-raptors.com/cherani/index.html
Cherani Tradespeech
www.data-raptors.com/cherani/tradespeech.html
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Message: 15
Date: Tue, 7 Dec 2004 10:42:04 -0500
From: Sally Caves <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Looking at the Cratylus; was: nomothete
Okay, thanks, Philip. But everybody, Philip included, what I need to know
is whether Eco has produced an error here that everybody is copying, or
whether he is copying a trend in classical studies that calls the Nomothete
a "name-giver" because of the popularity of the Cratylus. I'm not after an
exact translation of the passage; those questions of mine are minor. My
major question, and my primary reason for putting all that Greek in front of
you (please see my original post called "Looking at the Cratylus) was to
show that Plato uses three words:
>>
nomothetus (for "lawgiver"), onomatourgon, for "name-giver or crafter," and
onoma thesthai, "to give or bestow names."
<<
So when Muke said that I am not the only one to think that "name-giver" is a
misnomer for nomothete, and that many have "corrected" to onomatothete, I'm
wondering what it is he's referring to. Corrected where? Certainly not the
Cratylus? But rather writers' use of the term "nomothete" to mean
"name-giver," especially when Plato already has a word for that concept in
onoma thesthai, and in the passage below, by onomaton thetes?
"Then, my dear friend, must not the lawgiver (nomothetus) also know how to
embody in the sounds and syllables that name which is fitted by nature for
each object?" etc. etc. "Must he not make and give all his names with his
eye fixed upon the absolute or ideal name, if he is to an authoritative
giver of names? (onomaton thetes)"
This is what I think has happened. The people who are producing Nomothete
currently to mean "name-giver", as far as I can tell (and I have only really
scoured the Web), use it with Eco in the background. The exam question, for
instance, asks "What is Eco's notion of the Nomothete as Adam?" or
something like that. Reviews of his books mention nomothete. Everyone
takes for granted that Eco is right--he's erudite, he's successful, and
"nomo" looks like Latin nomen, "name." Why wouldn't the average reader
think nomothete is "name giver"? Muke suggests that it is a common error,
though, preceding Eco.
OR: is Eco operating within a system known to classicists where the
nomothete of the Cratylus has come to mean "the name giver"?
Does anybody know anything about this, or should I be directed to a
classicists' list?
Thanks, those are my major questions.
Philip... can you go back to my original question? These corrections are
helpful, but they don't address my major concerns.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Philip Newton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 2004 2:51 AM
Subject: Re: Looking at the Cratylus; was: nomothete
> On Tue, 7 Dec 2004 01:40:02 -0500, Sally Caves <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
>> Socrates: Nomothetus de soi dokei pas einai aner e o ten techne echon?
>> "Do you think every man is a lawgiver, or only he who has the skill?"
>> (I don't know how this sentence is structured, except that Nomothetus is
>> nominative. What is dokei?)
>
> My 0.5 cents:
>
> "dokei" = "to seem", I think... "dokei soi" = "it seems to you
> that...; you think (opine, consider, hold) that ..." (soi, of course,
> being the dative of the 2sg personal pronoun.)
>
> So you have the verb "einai" (to be) with the two complements "pas
> aner" (every man) and "nomothet�s" (lawgiver).
>
> The second bit being "�" = "or" followed by "ho t�n techn� ech�n" =
> "the the skill having" = "the one having the skill".
>
> Cheers,
> --
> Philip Newton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Watch the Reply-To!
>
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Message: 16
Date: Tue, 7 Dec 2004 10:55:16 -0500
From: Sally Caves <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Looking at the Cratylus; was: nomothete
Thanks, Muke. So is Eco wrong? Who were the ones being "corrected" that
you mentioned in your last message? I just posted a message where I queried
whether the use of Nomothete is a mistake, and that less learned people have
copied it, mistaking nomothete for onomaturge. See below:
----- Original Message -----
From: "Muke Tever" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 2004 8:24 AM
Subject: Re: Looking at the Cratylus; was: nomothete
> On Tue, 7 Dec 2004 01:40:02 -0500, Sally Caves <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
>> Socrates: Ouk ara pantos andros, O Ermogenes, onoma thesthai, alla tinos
>> onomatourgon outos d'estin, os eolken, o nomothetus, os de ton demiourgon
>> spaniotatos en anthropois gignetai.
>> "Then it is not for every man, Hermogenes, to give names (onoma
>> thesthai),
>> but for him who may be called the name-maker (onomatourgon); and he, it
>> appears, is the lawgiver (nomothetus), who is of all the artisans among
>> men
>> the rarest."
>>
>> (This seems like an argument for prescriptive grammarians!)
>>
>> What this tells me is that the Greek word for lawgiver has become
>> conflated
>> or confused with onomatourgon, simply because of the identification of
>> the
>> lawgiver with the namegiver. But technically, nomothete is "law-giver"
>> and
>> "onomatothete" or "onomatourge" is "namegiver."
Yes, I still wonder about this.
> I'm reading through the Perseus version text online here, and it seems to
> me
> that while Hermogenes believes (with modern linguists, apparently) that
> "no
> name belongs to any particular thing by nature, but only by the habit [=
> Greek
> ethos] and custom [= nomos] of those who employ it and who established the
> usage,"
> Socrates is trying to tell him further that it isn't just to anyone who
> can
> establish a word's usage: it may be that anyone can create a word, or
> call
> horses "men" and men "horses", but only the nomothete (the one who can
> establish _nomos_) can be called a skilled onomaturge.
Yes, I understand the philosophical question, and I read the whole Cratylus
last night between twelve and two in the morning. My question is rather
about the use of misuse of the word in Eco's writings, and those who quote
him. Has nomothete come to mean, among those who use the Platonic theory as
it is given in Cratylus, a "true" giver of names? If so, then I'm happy.
If Eco has just been sloppy, as he sometimes is, I'm not. But it appears
that use of Nomothete to mean authorized name giver has been used prior to
Eco, and been corrected by other classicists, or that is what I took your
remark last night to mean. Who was correcting whom? :)
comment?
Sally
Sally
>
> *Muke!
> --
> website: http://frath.net/
> LiveJournal: http://kohath.livejournal.com/
> deviantArt: http://kohath.deviantart.com/
>
> FrathWiki, a conlang and conculture wiki:
> http://wiki.frath.net/
>
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Message: 17
Date: Tue, 7 Dec 2004 10:59:09 -0500
From: "Mark J. Reed" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Souvlaki (was most looked-up words)
On Tue, Dec 07, 2004 at 01:29:58PM -0000, caeruleancentaur wrote:
> The gyro/gyros/hero is a submarine sandwich.
Certainly not!
A *hero* sandwich is reportedly the same thing as a submarine sandwich, although
the term isn't usual around here, but a *gyro* is quite another matter
entirely. A hero/sub may have any number of different ingredients and
is served on a long roll of bread. But a gyro's filling is a specific
concoction of meat, primarily lamb; tzaziki sauce (not sure on spelling)
is added, lettuce/tomato optional, and the whole thing is wrapped up in
a thick pita. At least, that's the fast-food version; posher Greek
restaurants often serve the meat with a side of pita pieces rather than
in a wrap. For the stereotypical fast food version, see
http://www.gyrowrap.com. For the stereotpyical fast-food *hero*
sandwich, see http://www.blimpie.com.
-Marcos
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Message: 18
Date: Tue, 7 Dec 2004 11:01:31 -0500
From: "Mark J. Reed" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Souvlaki (was most looked-up words)
On Wed, Dec 08, 2004 at 12:51:09AM +1100, Tristan Mc Leay wrote:
> On 8 Dec 2004, at 12.29 am, caeruleancentaur wrote:
> Aside from the fact that I wouldn't've thought of describing them as
> sandwiches (sandwiches need normal bread to satisfy my definition), I
> always assumed Subway was so called because it originated in or near a
> subway (presumably in the American sense), and that 'sub' came from
> this. Then when you came up with 'submarine sandwich' just now, it
> looked like it was some sort of play on Subway's subs.
Nope, it's rather the other way around. The sandwich was dubbed
"submarine" ("sub" for short) because it was shaped like a submarine.
The franchise name "Subway" is a play on that; other franches are called
"Sub Shop", "Great Subs", etc, etc. Of course, Subway has
adopted a subway/underground theme for their restaurants.
-Marcos
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Message: 19
Date: Tue, 7 Dec 2004 18:20:35 +0200
From: Steg Belsky <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: The Need for Debate
On Dec 7, 2004, at 9:36 AM, Ray Brown wrote:
> ...which as you say is rather one-sided and negative. The same with the
> Vikings - ask most people about Vikings and you will told about helmets
> with horns and pillaging & raping. In fact AFAIK there is no evidence
> for
> horned helmets - it is IIRC due to a fanciful illustration in some
> Victorian history book - and they did actually settle and develop quite
> civilized communities, for example, at Jorvik (York), in Iceland &
> elsewhere,
York comes from Norse "Jorvik"? I thought it came from Latin
"Eboricum" or something like that...
-Stephen (Steg)
"oy is just yo backwards"
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Message: 20
Date: Tue, 7 Dec 2004 17:30:36 +0100
From: Henrik Theiling <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: OT: Shapes of Fast Food (Re: Souvlaki (was most looked-up words))
Hi!
"Mark J. Reed" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>...
> http://www.gyrowrap.com. For the stereotpyical fast-food *hero*
> sandwich, see http://www.blimpie.com.
Thanks. .-)) And then there are:
'souvlaki':
http://www.athensguide.com/souvlaki.html
and 'd�ner':
http://www.euro-kebap.com/de/1_kebap.htm
**Henrik
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Message: 21
Date: Tue, 7 Dec 2004 11:58:38 -0500
From: "Mark J. Reed" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: most looked-up words
On Tue, Dec 07, 2004 at 11:29:27PM +1100, Tristan Mc Leay wrote:
> As for 'gyros', I think it's normally pronounced /suvla:ki/ hereabouts
> (and spelt 'souvlaki'), based on the description. Usually acquired from
> fish-and-chips shops.
This use of "souvlaki" to mean "gyros" is common even in Greece,
apparently, but originally a souvlaki was the kebab thing. See e.g.
http://www.greeklandscapes.com/travel/food_gyros.html
-Marcos
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Message: 22
Date: Tue, 7 Dec 2004 18:19:34 +0100
From: Steven Williams <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Looking for reference material on old Hindu legends.
I've been curious as of late about some old Hindu
legends, specifically those relating to ancient
technology such as aircraft (vimamas) and nuclear
weapons, as well as Hindu culture and religion in
general. Does anyone know where I can find some
reference material on that subject?
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Message: 23
Date: Tue, 7 Dec 2004 12:23:32 -0500
From: Geoff Horswood <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Xinkutlan revisions
Having posted some stuff a couple of weeks back on Xinkutlan phonology and
grammar, I almost immediately decided I didn't like it, and set about
reworking it.
Most of the phonology is the same as in my earlier post ("Xinkutlan 1-
Phonology"), but the vowels "i" and "o" are wider in their phonological
range than I first indicated, encompassing /I/ and /O/ as well as /i/
and /o/ respectively. Also, I have added the diphthong /uj/, also
transcribed as "ui", but with the grave accent I use to mark stress in
multi-syllable words on the u, not the i (in /wi/ it is on the i). I will
mark this as an apostrophe following the stressed vowel, so Xinkutlan is
properly Xinku'tlan
Personal pronouns and pronounal affixes:
Pronoun Affix
1 sgl kir -ir
2 sgl informal ut -un
2 sgl close hon. u'tu -una
2 sgl high hon. u'til -uni
2 sgl priestly hon. ua'tu -unuc
2 royal hon. utla'ma -utla
3 sgl inanimate i'ta -ita
3 sgl animate i'ma -ima
3 sgl honorific imu'c -imuc
1 pl inclusive rei -ec
1 pl exclusive tei -ets
2 pl informal asu't -um
2 pl close hon. asu'tu -uman
2 pl high hon. asu`tl -umir
2 pl priestly hon. asua`ti -umci
3 pl inanimate i'te -itei
3 pl animate i'ka -ika
3 pl honorific i'ri -iku
Verbs:
I've basically reversed the polarity of the affix system, so that almost
everything that did get stuck to the end of the verb now gets stuck to the
front, and vice versa. The gerund/infinitive prefix is "se-", but in my
dictionary, I'm listing things by stem for convenience.
Tense Prefix
Present a(t)-
Immediate Past el-
Recent Past u(r)-
Distant Past im-
Legendary Past en-
Immediate Future ro(s)-
Near Future di(r)-
Distant Future tse(l)-
Perfective p(u)- added before tense affix
Continuous -il- added between tense affix and verb stem
Habitual -am- " " " " "
be able to du(n)- added before tense affix
"Antipassive" -as follows verb stem
(Intransitive -> Transitive)
"Passive" -ix " "
(Transitive -> Intransitive)
Other Affixes (mostly suffixes):
Agentive - (no affix)
Patientive -il
at, on -ana
in -itl
with -ab
to -uan
from -uz
across, through -uruk
between -itla ... -itla
Particles:
Optative (let) na +
Conditional (if) + sa
Reflexive (to oneself) + ma
Mutual (to each other) + ke
Examples:
atura'nir ma'tul
PRES-hunt-I bear-PAT
I hunt a bear
ate'tlen ma'tul sura'niril
PRES-brown bear-PAT GER-hunt-I-PAT
The bear that I hunt is brown
atura'n itl ma'tul
PRES-hunt person bear-PAT
A man hunts a bear
elke'nir i'tlil kirua'nil selu'tlil
IM.PST-see-I person-PAT I-to-PAT GER-IM.PST-speak-PAT
I saw the man who spoke to me
i'tlil kirua'nil selu'tlil- elke'nir i'mal
person-PAT I-to-PAT GER-IM.PST-speak-PAT - IM.PST-see-I he-PAT
The man who spoke to me is the one I saw
Hopefully more to follow, and when I get the time, maybe even its own
website!
Geoff
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Message: 24
Date: Tue, 7 Dec 2004 20:31:18 +0300
From: Dan Sulani <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: nomothete
On 7 Dec, Sally Caves wrote:
<snip>
> My questions exactly. Is onomatothete an actual word? Or onomathete? Is
> he confusing nomos with onoma?
My Webster's Unabridged English dictionary doesn't list
"onomatothete" or "onomathete".
But it _does_ list "onomatomania"
onomatomania: "uncontrollable obsession with words or names
or their meanings or sounds"
Hmmm! ;-)
But then it goes on to ruin the whole effect by
noting that it especially refers to "a mania for repeating
certain words or sounds." :-P
Oh well.
Dan Sulani
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Message: 25
Date: Tue, 7 Dec 2004 19:48:49 +0200
From: Steg Belsky <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Souvlaki (was most looked-up words)
On Dec 7, 2004, at 5:59 PM, Mark J. Reed wrote:
> Certainly not!
> But a gyro's filling is a specific
> concoction of meat, primarily lamb; tzaziki sauce (not sure on
> spelling)
> is added, lettuce/tomato optional, and the whole thing is wrapped up in
> a thick pita. At least, that's the fast-food version; posher Greek
> restaurants often serve the meat with a side of pita pieces rather than
> in a wrap.
*wrapped up* in a pita???!!!
BLASPHEMOUS!!!
Everyone knows that you put food *inside* the pita - that's why God
invented the hollow space inside pita bread!!!!
(cue another flameariffic theological discussion ;) )
Oh, and just to add to the confusion, i was horribly confused when i
got to Israel and found out that what we call "kebab" in the USA and
what they call "kebab" in Israel are two very different things. Well,
they both involve skewers, meat and roasting, but while in the USA a
kebab is chunks of meat on a skewer, in Israel a kebab is ground meat
(and onions?) *molded onto* the skewer, and chunks of meat are called
"shislik".
Mmmmm... i'm getting hungry...
Oh, and these _shipudim_ (=skewers) type foods are commonly served
INSIDE a pita, as they should be. ;-)
-Stephen (Steg)
"kibbeh, kibbeh, lahhmajeen;
lahhmajeen, lahhmajeen..."
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