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There are 25 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1. Re: The Need for Debate
From: John Cowan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2. Proto-Germanic
From: Estel Telcontar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3. Re: Looking at the Cratylus; was: nomothete
From: Muke Tever <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4. Re: nomothete
From: Ray Brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5. Re: most looked-up words
From: Ray Brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6. Re: Looking for reference material on old Hindu legends.
From: Muke Tever <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7. Re: NATLANG: Icelandic
From: Carsten Becker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8. ON-TOPIC: Ayeri update and other related news (was: Tatari Faran
Update)
From: Carsten Becker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9. Re: Proto-Germanic
From: Benct Philip Jonsson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10. Re: CHAT Re: Souvlaki (was most looked-up words)
From: Roger Mills <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11. Re: Preliminary Sketch
From: "H. S. Teoh" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12. Re: Looking for reference material on old Hindu legends.
From: Steven Williams <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13. Re: nomothete
From: Steg Belsky <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14. Another natlang info request: Faruli
From: "Mark J. Reed" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15. Devanagari handwriting?
From: Steven Williams <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16. Re: CHAT Re: Souvlaki (was most looked-up words)
From: John Cowan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17. Re: CHAT Re: Souvlaki (was most looked-up words)
From: Steg Belsky <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18. Re: Devanagari handwriting?
From: Steg Belsky <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19. Re: most looked-up words
From: Geoff Horswood <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20. Re: OT: Shapes of Fast Food (Re: Souvlaki (was most looked-up words))
From: Roger Mills <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21. Re: CHAT Re: Souvlaki (was most looked-up words)
From: "Elyse M. Grasso" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22. Re: The Need for Debate
From: John Cowan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23. Re: CHAT Re: Souvlaki (was most looked-up words)
From: John Cowan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24. Re: The Need for Debate
From: Joe <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25. Re: CHAT Re: Souvlaki (was most looked-up words)
From: Joe <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
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________________________________________________________________________
Message: 1
Date: Tue, 7 Dec 2004 12:52:06 -0500
From: John Cowan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: The Need for Debate
Ray Brown scripsit:
> Galileo's problem was that he was born during the Reformation when debate
> on both sides of the religious divide was not exactly encouraged.
> Dissenting in Calvin's Geneva was at least as dangerous as dissenting in
> Catholic Rome.
His other problem was that he was a lifelong flamer, a troll, and
a net.assassin of the very worst kind, and probably had a profitable
sideline selling the Italian edition of "How to Lose Friends and Alienate
People". He had the regrettable habit of calling a spade a God-damned
shovel, even when it was being wielded by a Prince (of the Church or the
State, it hardly mattered). As a result of having cheesed off everyone in
Italy, he was brought up on charges of making the Pope look like a fool
(which he had unquestionably done), was shown the instruments of torture
(but they were never used on him), and was told to go home and stay there,
which he duly did.
> >There's also often the problem of
> >perspective: for instance, the "barbarians" (Goths, Vandals etc) who
> >eroded the roman empire near the end. Were they really that bad? Was
> >there nothing important that was good to say about them?
>
> Yes, particularly the Goths.
The reason the Goths took over the Western Roman Empire (basically just
Italy at this point) was to protect the remaining glories of Roman civilization
from the real thugs, like the Franks and the Bulgars.
--
Here lies the Christian, John Cowan
judge, and poet Peter, http://www.reutershealth.com
Who broke the laws of God http://www.ccil.org/~cowan
and man and metre. [EMAIL PROTECTED]
________________________________________________________________________
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Message: 2
Date: Tue, 7 Dec 2004 13:27:17 -0500
From: Estel Telcontar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Proto-Germanic
Hello everyone,
How do the Germanic conlangers out there find proto-Germanic paradigms
to develop their languages from? I'm having a hard time tracking them
down. Also, does anyone know of a good list of the sound changes
between Proto-Germanic and Old English? The latter is for an idea I've
had, that it would be neat to try applying those sound changes to
ancient Greek and seeing what comes out. People have romance conlangs
that are Germanic-like on the surface - I wonder what hellenic conlang
that's Germanic-like on the surface would be like. Are there any other
Greek-derived conlangs out there? I'd think there must be, but I don't
know of them.
______________________________________________________
Få den nye Yahoo! Messenger på http://no.messenger.yahoo.com/
Nye ikoner og bakgrunner, webkamera med superkvalitet og dobbelt så morsom
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 3
Date: Tue, 7 Dec 2004 11:40:11 -0700
From: Muke Tever <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Looking at the Cratylus; was: nomothete
On Tue, 7 Dec 2004 10:55:16 -0500, Sally Caves <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Thanks, Muke. So is Eco wrong? Who were the ones being "corrected" that
> you mentioned in your last message?
I looked up "onomatothetes" in the Liddell & Scott Greek lexicon and it
says it is v.l. in recc. for nomothetes, in a different work, _Charmides_:
"But now, you see, we are worsted every way, and cannot discover what
thing it can possibly be to which the lawgiver gave this name,
temperance." (... kai ou dynametha heurein eph' hotoi pote ton onton ho
nomothetes touto tounoma etheto, ten sophrosynen.)
And that's about all I know ><
*Muke!
--
website: http://frath.net/
LiveJournal: http://kohath.livejournal.com/
deviantArt: http://kohath.deviantart.com/
FrathWiki, a conlang and conculture wiki:
http://wiki.frath.net/
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 4
Date: Tue, 7 Dec 2004 18:46:56 +0000
From: Ray Brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: nomothete
On Tuesday, December 7, 2004, at 03:29 , Sally Caves wrote:
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "And Rosta" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
[snip]
>> Not as far as I know. Is there some kind of abstruse pun going on,
>> between nomothete and onomatothete? Are these words for "law" and "name"
>> cognate? And are Latin lex/legis (law) and Gk lexis/legein (words,
>> speech, speak) [forgive me if in my haste my inflections err ...]
>> cognate?
>
> My questions exactly. Is onomatothete an actual word?
My English dictionary does not list it, but |onomatoqeths| /onomatot_hete:
s/ is attested in Greek.
> Or onomathete?
Ach!! I hope not - that would be bad fornation.
> Is he confusing nomos with onoma?
It would seem so on the face of it, if indeed he wrote the Italian for
'nonothete'
[snip]
> I can't imagine Eco making this kind of mistake (is there an Italian
> version
> of the word?),
My immediate reaction when reading your first email was: "Is it a mistake
in the translation?" But on reflection, this does not seem likely. I
assume the Italian equivalents would be _nomotete_ and _onomatotete_ which
are distinctive enough to alert even a moderately competent translator. I
would guess that Eco has the Cratylus passage in mind.
> and here I was quoting him, and thinking that we had another
> word for glossopoeist,
No - I think not.
> perhaps some kind of divine name-giver, but I was
> thrown into doubt by all the dictionary definitions of this word when I
> checked.
Quite right.
> If Eco screwed up here, I've lost a GREAT paragraph.
I think you are reading too much into 'nomothete'.
[snip]
> Then what is -thete? "placer?" "doer"? from Greek tithenai, "to put"?
> The
> IE dictionary gives reduplicative *dhi-dhe as the origin of this suffix in
> such words as metathesis, synthesis, prosthesis, anathema, etc. Putting or
> placing things into a district or a usage?
Yes, the root of _tithenai_ (or |tiqenai| in ASCII transliteration) is
the-. The suffix -te:s is a common one denoting "agent". _thete:s_ "one
who places" does actually occur as a word in its own right in ancient
greek, tho it is not common.
> So what Adam is doing is actually apportioning the animals? Placing
> animals
> into categories? (I'm hopeful of this last).
There is nothing in Genesis 2:19 - 20 to suggest that - just
straightforward naming each wild beast and each bird that JHWH brought
before him.
> Giving laws to language and names (even more hopeful)?
No, there is nothing to suggest this. I have no doubt that some people
have formulated all sorts of interpretations of this passage - but the
text has nothing more than naming these various creatures.
[snip]
> I return to And's question: logos seems to mean in Greek both "law" and
> "word."
It is not the normal word for "law". It can mean 'law' in the sense of a
law embodying the result of _logismos_ - a process of reckoning and
rationalization. _logos_ has a very wide range of meaning.
> Could nomos, too?
No. _nomos_ means "custom, usage" as well as "[statutary] law", i.e. law
drawn up by some authority, normally a human authority, but it was also
used of the laws of God as defined in the Septuagint.
> Did Eco mean logothete? I looked that up, and
> unfortunately it meant a petty accountant.
It does. One meaning of _logos_ is 'reckoning, accounting'
> The IE root for L. lex ("law") is also the root for Gr. logos: *leg: "to
> collect; with derivatives meaning to speak." Could the same thing have
> been
> going on with nomos/onoma?
As Charlie has pointed out, the words _nomos_ and _onoma/onuma_ (depending
on dialect) are not cognate.
==============================================
On Tuesday, December 7, 2004, at 03:50 , Muke Tever wrote:
> On Mon, 6 Dec 2004 19:13:07 -0500, Sally Caves <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
[snip]
>> Is Eco using the word incorrectly? I've always understood this to mean
>> nomos + theticos. Is there any context outside of Eco's use of it here
>> where this word means giving the name?
>
> Yes. In Plato's dialogue "Cratylus" it is used it this way.
>
> << Socrates:
> Perhaps, then, one artisan of names will be good, and another bad?
> Cratylus:
> Yes.
> Socrates:
> The name of such an artisan was lawgiver? [nomoqeths]
> Cratylus:
> Yes. >>
Yes - and I am sure this is why Eco is using 'nomothete'.
[snip]
> But it seems that you're not the only one to think it a mistake, as
> apparently "onomatothete" [onomatoqeths] was often written as a correction
> of this word.
Yes - and there is certainly variant reading in manuscripts in Plato's
Charmenides 175b, where Saocrates, Charmenides & Kritias are trying to
define |swfrosunh| 'sophrosyne' - "moderation, temperance, prudence".
"For in every way we are defeated and we cannot find upon whatever of
existing things the nomothete/ onmomatothete placed [etheto] this name
'moderation'."
==============================================
On Tuesday, December 7, 2004, at 06:40 , Sally Caves wrote:
[snip]
> Okay, I've had a look at this. With great good fortune, I found my Loeb
> Classic Cratylus, and I have transliterated the Greek (probably badly)
Strictly, what you have done is to _transcribe_ the Greek, not to
_transliterate_ it. Transliteration is the one-to-one conversion of a
grapheme from one system to another. This is what Muke was doing when he
wrote |nomoqeths|; each Roman letter corresponds to a Greek letter, e.g.
|g| corresponds to 'theta' [t_h] and |h| to 'eta' (long-e). "nonothetes"
on the other hand is a trancription, since the one Greek letter theta has
become two Roman letters |th| and both epsilon and eta are written |e|.
[snip]
> Sorry for the lack of diacritical marks; perhaps Greek experts can correct
> me:
I do not think there any reason to do this. Yes, there is the odd error,
but those of us who know ancient greek can follow your transcription, and
those who do not know ancient Greek will be none the wiser however
accurate a transcription or transliteration is give :)
[snip]
> "Then it is not for every man, Hermogenes, to give names (onoma thesthai)
> ,
> but for him who may be called the name-maker (onomatourgon); and he, it
> appears, is the lawgiver (nomothetus), who is of all the artisans among
> men
> the rarest."
>
> (This seems like an argument for prescriptive grammarians!)
Absolutely! there is no 'seems' about it. (I do not BTW agree with Plato)
>
> What this tells me is that the Greek word for lawgiver has become
> conflated
> or confused with onomatourgon,
_onomatourgon_ BTW is the accusative; the nominative is _onomatourgos_.
> simply because of the identification of the
> lawgiver with the namegiver.
No, I do not think there is any confusion - see below.
> But technically, nomothete is "law-giver" and
> "onomatothete" or "onomatourge" is "namegiver."
The anglification of _onomatourgos_ would de 'onomaturge' via the
Latinized form. _onomaturgus_. The Greek words _omoatothetes_
|onomatogeths| and _onomatourgos_ are not synonyms, only the first is
"namegiver". Fowler is correct in translating _onomatourgos_ as
"name-maker" - "name-fashioner" might be better. A 'onomatothete; merely
bestows a name, like caling his house "Dunromin", but a 'onomaturge'
actually creates names, makes up names.
But you are right to refer to prescriptive grammarians. The point is that
Plato recognized that names are not inherent properties of things but are
man-made conventions, that is they "nomoi". In a civilized society nomoi
must be given authority. The reason why the 'name-giver' is called
_nomothete_ is that he is laying down what name is to be conventionally
attached to each thing, concept etc. He is _prescribing_ the correct name.
What Socrates seems to be saying is that it is not for everyone to go
around naming things as s/he thinks fit. It is only the person who has the
skill to fashion names (the onomaturge) who should act as law-giver in
prescribing the correct name for things.
> My question is this: should I follow Eco in this identification or should
> I
> challenge him?
I would hesitate in challenging Eco unless I was very certain of my ground.
I think you are referring to the passage in "Languages in Paradise" where
Adam is giving names to all the wild animals of the earth & the birds of
heaven. The text in Genesis says quite clearly: "and whatever name Adam
gave any living creature, that was the name of it." In other words, Adam
is a _nomothete_ as he is giving the "customary usage" (nomos) by which
each creature has a name. This is a prescriptive act, therefore the act of
a nomothete.
Eco goes on to consider verse 20 and discuss whether Adam makes up the
name himself (that is, whether Adam is a _onomaturge_) or is whether Adam
has been given some sort spiritual insight and is giving each its own
intrinsic, extralinguistic name which is due to each creature. In the
latter case Adam would be a mere _ononatothete_ and not a _onomatuge_ -
but either way, he was a _nomothete_ - if you see what I mean :)
I note Eco refers to "nominibus suis" which is in the Vulgate version of
verse 20:
Appellavitque Adam nominibus suis cuncta animantia, et universa volatilia
caeli, et omnes bestias terrae.
And Adam call all living things by their own names: both all the flying
creatures of the sky, and all the beasts of the earth.
But I notice the Septuagint has nothing corresponding to "nominibus":
Kai ekalesen Adam onomata pasi tois kthnesi, kai pasi tois peteinois tou
ouranou, kai pasi tois qhriois tou agrou.
And Adam summoned names for all the domestic animals, and for all the
winged creatures of the sky, and for all wild beasts of the country-side.
I wonder what the Hebrew has. Hopefully Steg or Isaac will enlighten us.
> Do you know of any others besides Eco that use nomothete as
> "namegiver" or is he alone in this identification? Is it European? Is
> it a
> "Greek" thing? a "Plato" thing?
A Plato thing - but the _prescriptive_ linguistic approach has been the
European approach until, I think, the 20th century.
> I see in the following pages that
> "lawgiver" has now supplanted the term "name creator": "Then, my dear
> friend, must not the lawgiver also know how to embody in the sounds and
> syllables that name which is fitted by nature for each object?" etc. etc.
> "Must he not make and give all his names with his eye fixed upon the
> absolute or ideal name, if he is to an authoritative giver of names?
> (onomaton thetes)" No, I guess I'm wrong. But the identification is
> certainly there. Any others want to weigh in on this?
>
> Wow, this is a fabulous text for the conlanger.
But only if you have the Platonic view of things, Plato believed that our
world was a mere shadow the 'real word'. The true 'things in themselves'
have an extramundane & eternal existense. There can no name creator. The
onomaturge is an artisan who who fashions words in the same way that a
carpenter fashions tables and chair. But the latter, according to Plato,
does so because he 'remembers' the true Form of Chair or Table which his
soul contemplated before being incarnate in its current incarnation. The
really skilled craftsman was the one who best remembered the true,
eternnal Forms. Likewise the best person for laying dawn the law by which
we should name things, is the person who fashions the names because he can
fit the sounds and syllables to their true, eternal names.
But to return to what term you should use, my answer is that it depends
upon context and what meaning you want to convey. As I see it:
nomothete - one who lays down the law or convention (by which we behave,
name things etc).
onomatothete - one who gives a name to something (parents do this to
children).
onomaturge - one who creates or fashions a name.
Hopefully, conlangers are onomaturges :)
Ray
===============================================
http://home.freeuk.com/ray.brown
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
===============================================
Anything is possible in the fabulous Celtic twilight,
which is not so much a twilight of the gods
as of the reason." [JRRT, "English and Welsh" ]
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Message: 5
Date: Tue, 7 Dec 2004 18:46:59 +0000
From: Ray Brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: most looked-up words
On Tuesday, December 7, 2004, at 06:43 , Thomas R. Wier wrote:
>> Also, ten points to anyone who can tell me what a 'kudo' is.
>
> _kudo_ [k_hudo/@u] is a backformation from _kudos_ [k_hudo/@uz](pl.),
Ach!!
> which is itself a reanalysis of Greek _kudos_ [ku:dOs] 'glory',
neuter singular. [ku:dOs] was Doric Greek, [ky:dOs] was Attic & Koine, and
['kiDOs] is Byzantine & modern.
> which
> is usually said to originate in British schoolboy slang.
Almost certainly, hence the pronunciation [EMAIL PROTECTED] extant here. If it
had come by the 'normal' route via Latin, it would have been *cydus :)
>
> =========================================================================
> =
> Thomas Wier "I find it useful to meet my subjects personally,
> Dept. of Linguistics because our secret police don't get it right
> University of Chicago half the time." -- octogenarian Sheikh Zayed of
> 1010 E. 59th Street Abu Dhabi, to a French reporter.
> Chicago, IL 60637
>
>
>
Ray
===============================================
http://home.freeuk.com/ray.brown
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
===============================================
Anything is possible in the fabulous Celtic twilight,
which is not so much a twilight of the gods
as of the reason." [JRRT, "English and Welsh" ]
________________________________________________________________________
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Message: 6
Date: Tue, 7 Dec 2004 11:57:44 -0700
From: Muke Tever <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Looking for reference material on old Hindu legends.
On Tue, 7 Dec 2004 18:19:34 +0100, Steven Williams <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I've been curious as of late about some old Hindu
> legends, specifically those relating to ancient
> technology such as aircraft (vimamas) and nuclear
> weapons, as well as Hindu culture and religion in
> general. Does anyone know where I can find some
> reference material on that subject?
If that wasn't a typo, you may be able to find better information with
the spelling "Vimana".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vimana
Don't know of any reliable resources, though dubious ones are in no short
supply.
*Muke!
--
website: http://frath.net/
LiveJournal: http://kohath.livejournal.com/
deviantArt: http://kohath.deviantart.com/
FrathWiki, a conlang and conculture wiki:
http://wiki.frath.net/
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 7
Date: Tue, 7 Dec 2004 19:53:11 +0100
From: Carsten Becker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: NATLANG: Icelandic
Hello!
On Monday 06 December 2004 15:08, Tim May wrote:
> Tristan Mc Leay wrote at 2004-12-06 12:48:41 (+1100)
>
> Well, I don't speak Icelandic, but here's what Stefán
> Einarsson[1] says
Just in case there's indeed nobody around here who can speak
Icelandic, I know a native speaker from the ZBB. So if you
want, I can invite him. Or, Kári/vegfarandi, if you
coincidentally read this, you're welcome to join.
Carsten
--
Eri silveváng aibannama padangin.
Nivaie evaenain eri ming silvoieváng caparei.
- Antoine de Saint-Exupéry, Le Petit Prince
-> http://www.beckerscarsten.de/?conlang=ayeri
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Message: 8
Date: Tue, 7 Dec 2004 19:57:02 +0100
From: Carsten Becker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: ON-TOPIC: Ayeri update and other related news (was: Tatari Faran
Update)
Manáyang!
On Monday 06 December 2004 19:56, H. S. Teoh wrote:
> It appears that the recent lack of status updates on
> Tatari Faran has left so much despair on the list that
> people (including myself :-P) have been driven to
> religious/political flaming. To counteract this sad state
> of affairs, allow me to bring you this latest news from
> the volcanoes of Fara. ;-)
>
> [ lots of interesting stuff snipped ]
Lol, right you are. Here are my two cents :-P
I wanted to tell you that currently, I'm trying to
write a course for my conlang. Some people over at the ZBB
have asked me to do so. I hope that booklet will be
finished so far until February 2005 -- after all, there's
still Real Life™! Anyway, it'll surely boost my vocabulary
inventory and blow away my lazyness regarding conculturing.
At least I hope so ;-) As for the vocabulary stuff I
recently posted, you'll see more of this in any case, but
ATM, I haven't got the time for it, sorry.
See you,
Carsten
--
http://www.beckerscarsten.de/?conlang=ayeri
* now with _completely new designed_ front page!
* updated dictionary _and_ the German version of the _grammar_!
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Message: 9
Date: Tue, 7 Dec 2004 20:05:00 +0100
From: Benct Philip Jonsson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Proto-Germanic
Estel Telcontar wrote:
> Hello everyone,
> How do the Germanic conlangers out there find proto-Germanic paradigms
> to develop their languages from? I'm having a hard time tracking them
> down.
Author Prokosch, Eduard
Title A comparative Germanic grammar.
Publication Philadelphia : Linguistic society of America, University of
Pennsylvania, 1939
Material Information 353 p. : ill (maps) diagrs ;
Author Haugen, Einar
Title Scandinavian language structures : a comparative historical
survey / Einar Haugen
Publication Tübingen : Niemeyer, 1982
Material Information 225 s. : tab.
Series Sprachstrukturen. Reihe A, Historische Sprachstrukturen, 5
ISBN 3484650052
> Also, does anyone know of a good list of the sound changes
> between Proto-Germanic and Old English?
The only good source I know of is in German:
Author Pinsker, Hans Ernst
Title Historische englische Grammatik : Elemente der Laut- und Formlehre
Publication München, 1959
Material Information 199 s.
> The latter is for an idea I've
> had, that it would be neat to try applying those sound changes to
> ancient Greek and seeing what comes out. People have romance conlangs
> that are Germanic-like on the surface - I wonder what hellenic conlang
> that's Germanic-like on the surface would be like. Are there any other
> Greek-derived conlangs out there? I'd think there must be, but I don't
> know of them.
I suggest you subscribe to Germaniconlang. There is some stuff
in its filesection.
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/germaniconlang/>
> ______________________________________________________
> Få den nye Yahoo! Messenger på http://no.messenger.yahoo.com/
> Nye ikoner og bakgrunner, webkamera med superkvalitet og dobbelt så morsom
>
>
Are you Norwegian?
--
/BP 8^)>
--
Benct Philip Jonsson -- melroch at melroch dot se
Solitudinem faciunt pacem appellant!
(Tacitus)
________________________________________________________________________
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Message: 10
Date: Tue, 7 Dec 2004 14:06:28 -0500
From: Roger Mills <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: CHAT Re: Souvlaki (was most looked-up words)
> > Tristan Mc Leay <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> >> As for 'gyros', I think it's normally pronounced /suvla:ki/
> >> hereabouts (and spelt 'souvlaki'), based on the description. Usually
> >> acquired from fish-and-chips shops.
> >
Charlie wrote:
> > According to the cookbook "Ethnic Cuisines," souvlaki is the Greek
> > equivalent of the Turkish shish kebab, i.e., meat (and other things)
> > skewered and grilled.
Yes, certainly in my experience: picnic at the homes of Greek friends; meals
in several echt-Greek restaurants in Detroit (big Greek population there);
encounters with gyros in same and at street festivals.
>
> Souvlaki in my usage are certainly not shish kebabs and satisfy your
> definition of gyros. I'm stunned to discover there's any other meaning.
> And considering how many fish-and-chips shops are run by Greeks, it
> seems at least a little bit odd.
Historically, even in the US, Greek immigrants are noted for the quantity,
if not always the quality, of their restaurants.
The thing about gyros is the nature of the meat: a mixture of beef and lamb
made into a longish loaf thing (I don't know what holds it together,
however); run through longitudinally with a spit and roasted vertically in
(nowadays) an electric oven (it has a red-hot glowing coil like a heater or
hot-plate; not the sort of equipment found in the average home kitchen,
though I suppose you could do it over or next to an open fire, but someone
would have to keep turning the spit).
As the outside cooks, thin slices are removed vertically and put into a
pita, along with chopped tomato, lettuce, yogurt and maybe cucumber.
Delicious but messy. Does that description match your Australian "souvlaki"?
Souvlaki OTOH are simply chunks of meat on a skewer, cooked on a grill,
constantly brushed with a marinade of oil, lemon and spices. It may be that
these too can be served in a pita with condiments; I don't recall.
>
> Things involving skewers are kebabs, but kebabs can also be
> souvlaki-like things except with Turkish bread rather than pita.
Is there a difference between Turkish bread and pita? I thought pita (no
doubt under local names) was common throughout the eastern Mediterranean.
Charlie again:
> > The gyro/gyros/hero is a submarine sandwich. I've seen store
> > marquees announcing that they sell "hero" sandwiches. I've explained
> > to numerous people that that is the Greek pronunciation (more or
> > less) of gyro.
That's my speculation too, i.e. "hero" as a deformed version of "gyro(s)"
['yiro(s)]...
>I didn't realize that the word is properly gyros.
Well, it means "spin/turn" and I assume refers to the turning of the spit.
I
> > presume they are called submarine sandwiches (or simply subs, as in
> > the chain Subway) because of the shape of the roll that's used.
Again, my assumption. I suspect that, like pizza, their popularity with
non-Italian Americans dates mainly from post World-War II. (The idea brought
back by GIs who'd been in Italy-- surely a life-changing experience for your
average Midwestern farm boy). Truth to tell, I'd never heard of them until
college years in Boston (50s)-- where they're also called "grinders"
(why?????)
In New Orleans, "po'boys", in Miami, "Cuban sandwiches".
Tristan:
> Aside from the fact that I wouldn't've thought of describing them as
> sandwiches (sandwiches need normal bread to satisfy my definition)
..irredeemably ethnocentric.....:-)))))))))
>I always assumed Subway was so called because it originated in or near a
> subway (presumably in the American sense), and that 'sub' came from
> this. Then when you came up with 'submarine sandwich' just now, it
> looked like it was some sort of play on Subway's subs.
No, it's Subway that doing the play...subs ~submarine sandwiches are way
older. Come to think of it, maybe some folk-etymology going on here: a long
subway car filled with different kinds of people =~ a long bread filled with
goodies. Perhaps we don't think about (naval) submarines as much as we used
to.
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Message: 11
Date: Tue, 7 Dec 2004 11:12:57 -0800
From: "H. S. Teoh" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Preliminary Sketch
On Mon, Dec 06, 2004 at 05:16:42PM -0500, Paul Bennett wrote:
> This afternoon, during a slightly slack period at work, I jotted down some
> notes of a language unlike my previous projects.
>
> Here are my notes in full. Any thoughts, questions or suggestions?
>
> br /B\/
Interesting. I don't know of any lang that uses the bilabial trill
phonemically. Cool! :-)
> dr /r/
> gr /R\/
Nice idea to transcribe different trills by their place of
articulation.
[...]
> tj /c_+C_+)/
> ch /tS)/
Whoa, this is a hard distinction for me to pronounce.
[...]
> ee /i/
This looks a bit too English, IMHO.
[...]
> oo /u/
Again, this looks a bit too English to me. You could have other ways
of writing [u]: e.g., /ou/ ala Greek. Just MHO of course.
[...]
> Verbs of motion supplete for path instead of manner, with adverbs for
> manner.
> e.g. br'gar "go along", ngana "go toward", shoo ngana "walk towards",
> drork ngana "stealthily approach", drork chovbr'gar "sleathily traverse a
> beach".
Interesting.
[...]
> Language is modifier-head,
You mean modifier-initial?
> with some fusional agglutinative elements, and prefixing
> incorporation of primary(?) objects. Check the definition of
> dechticaetiative.
Interesting. Any examples?
T
--
Don't drink and derive. Alcohol and algebra don't mix.
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Message: 12
Date: Tue, 7 Dec 2004 20:20:00 +0100
From: Steven Williams <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Looking for reference material on old Hindu legends.
--- Muke Tever <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> skrev:
> If that wasn't a typo, you may be able to find
> better information with the spelling "Vimana".
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vimana
>
> Don't know of any reliable resources, though dubious
> ones are in no short supply.
Actually, it was the Wikipedia article that sparked my
interest. I'm thinking of writing an alternate
history, and it'll feature very heavily such things as
vimanas (vimaanaa? vimaani? what's the Sanskrit
plural?) and such. I'm just looking for ideas and
facts, even dubious ones, to base the history on.
There's a hell of a lot of good reference material on
Sanskrit, but not so much on their legendarium.
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Message: 13
Date: Tue, 7 Dec 2004 21:39:02 +0200
From: Steg Belsky <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: nomothete
On Dec 7, 2004, at 8:46 PM, Ray Brown wrote:
> I note Eco refers to "nominibus suis" which is in the Vulgate version
> of
> verse 20:
> Appellavitque Adam nominibus suis cuncta animantia, et universa
> volatilia
> caeli, et omnes bestias terrae.
> And Adam call all living things by their own names: both all the flying
> creatures of the sky, and all the beasts of the earth.
> But I notice the Septuagint has nothing corresponding to "nominibus":
> Kai ekalesen Adam onomata pasi tois kthnesi, kai pasi tois peteinois
> tou
> ouranou, kai pasi tois qhriois tou agrou.
> And Adam summoned names for all the domestic animals, and for all the
> winged creatures of the sky, and for all wild beasts of the
> country-side.
> I wonder what the Hebrew has. Hopefully Steg or Isaac will enlighten
> us.
It says:
Vayiqra ha'adam sheimot; lekhol habeheima ule`of hashamayim, ulekhol
hhayat hasadeh
"And [then] the human called names; for all of the domesticated animals
and for the birds of the heavens, and for all of the wild animals of
the field..."
*note: |habeheima| (d. animals), |`of| (birds), and |hhaya(t)| (w.
animals) are all actually singular forms used as collectives for the
categories. |`of| comes from the root for "flying" so 'flying
creatures' might work also, but i can't remember ever seeing non-birds
explicitly placed in the |`of| category.
-Stephen (Steg)
"Get into the Hanuka spirit, everyone!
The spirit of guerilla warfare!"
~ an AIM away message
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Message: 14
Date: Tue, 7 Dec 2004 14:25:54 -0500
From: "Mark J. Reed" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Another natlang info request: Faruli
Or maybe it's spelled "Farouli"? In any case, it's a West African
language, and if I thought Amharic resources online were scant, well,
there's a cornucopia of them compared to this. I'm hoping I'm just
misspelling it completely and there's actually info out there; if
anyone has any pointers, I'd appreciate it.
Thanks.
-Mark
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Message: 15
Date: Tue, 7 Dec 2004 20:36:15 +0100
From: Steven Williams <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Devanagari handwriting?
Since learning the Devanagari abugida, I've been
curious as to how it's handwritten in everyday usage.
The script is _very_ difficult to write out as it is
printed, especially on account of the top bar. Do the
users of this alphabet just grin and bear it, or do
they have some form that they use in informal
day-to-day communication?
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Message: 16
Date: Tue, 7 Dec 2004 14:40:23 -0500
From: John Cowan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: CHAT Re: Souvlaki (was most looked-up words)
Roger Mills scripsit:
> Truth to tell, I'd never heard of [hero sandwiches] until college
> years in Boston (50s)-- where they're also called "grinders" (why?????)
Probably because they look like they could reach back to one's grinders,
i.e. the molars (which is just Latin for "grinders", as in the millstones
of a grain mill.) The term is general in the whole non-rhotic area around
Boston.
> In New Orleans, "po'boys", in Miami, "Cuban sandwiches".
Cuban sandwiches, unlike the others, are toasted in some kind of device
that makes them come out compressed.
Other names include "hoagies" (Philadelphia), "torpedoes", "wedges", and
"zep(pelin)s". Wikipedia thinks the sandwich is not Italian, but was
designed in New York City for Italian immigrants.
Finally, there is the term "Dagwood sandwich", referring to Blondie's husband
in the long-running comic strip _Blondie_. I don't know if this is live
usage or just a kind of in-joke.
--
"And it was said that ever after, if any John Cowan
man looked in that Stone, unless he had a [EMAIL PROTECTED]
great strength of will to turn it to other www.ccil.org/~cowan
purpose, he saw only two aged hands withering www.reutershealth.com
in flame." --"The Pyre of Denethor"
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 17
Date: Tue, 7 Dec 2004 22:01:26 +0200
From: Steg Belsky <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: CHAT Re: Souvlaki (was most looked-up words)
On Dec 7, 2004, at 9:06 PM, Roger Mills wrote:
> The thing about gyros is the nature of the meat: a mixture of beef and
> lamb
> made into a longish loaf thing (I don't know what holds it together,
> however); run through longitudinally with a spit and roasted
> vertically in
> (nowadays) an electric oven (it has a red-hot glowing coil like a
> heater or
> hot-plate; not the sort of equipment found in the average home kitchen,
> though I suppose you could do it over or next to an open fire, but
> someone
> would have to keep turning the spit).
> As the outside cooks, thin slices are removed vertically and put into a
> pita, along with chopped tomato, lettuce, yogurt and maybe cucumber.
> Delicious but messy. Does that description match your Australian
> "souvlaki"?
That's... that's... that's SHAWARMA!
Well, mostly.
Weirdly-staying-together cylinder of meat, roasted on a slowly-spinning
rotisserie-like spit, but vertical, served by slicing off cooked bits
vertically, and put in a pita.
Shawarma is chicken, turkey, and/or lamb, though; never beef as far as
i know. Generally served with a wider variety of choices for add-ons,
though - chopped tomatos & cucumbers ("israeli salad"), cabbage,
_hharif_ (hot sauce/paste), _amba_ (spicy mango-based sauce), _hhumus_
(chickpea paste), _tehhina_ (sesame dressing), pickles, and /tS)ips/
(British-style french fries) are relatively common ones. Oh, and
_matbuhha_ and "Turkish salad", which are mashed-tomato-based and
mashed-pepper-based additions. and eggplant. You won't find all those
things at every neighborhood shawarma/felafel joint, but they all seem
to be pretty common add-ins for roasted meat fast food like shawarma,
kebab, shishlik, etc.; also for felafel. All these add-ins are known
categorically as _salatim_ "salads" but except for israeli salad,
they're mostly only 'salad' in the sense that tuna salad is a salad.
Shaul and/or Dan can correct me if my glazed international-student eyes
are missing some important distinctions :) .
> Souvlaki OTOH are simply chunks of meat on a skewer, cooked on a grill,
> constantly brushed with a marinade of oil, lemon and spices. It may be
> that these too can be served in a pita with condiments; I don't
> recall.
Hey, it's not in the pita unless it's actually *inside* the pita! :-P
;-)
-Stephen (Steg)
"Get into the Hanuka spirit, everyone!
The spirit of guerilla warfare!"
~ an AIM away message
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Message: 18
Date: Tue, 7 Dec 2004 22:04:54 +0200
From: Steg Belsky <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Devanagari handwriting?
On Dec 7, 2004, at 9:36 PM, Steven Williams wrote:
> Since learning the Devanagari abugida, I've been
> curious as to how it's handwritten in everyday usage.
> The script is _very_ difficult to write out as it is
> printed, especially on account of the top bar. Do the
> users of this alphabet just grin and bear it, or do
> they have some form that they use in informal
> day-to-day communication?
I've seen a Bengali-speaker write in Bengali, which is closely related
to Devanagari, and she always wrote the dangling parts of all the
letters first, and then wrote the line across the top of the word at
the end.
-Stephen (Steg)
"Get into the Hanuka spirit, everyone!
The spirit of guerilla warfare!"
~ an AIM away message
________________________________________________________________________
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Message: 19
Date: Tue, 7 Dec 2004 14:56:33 -0500
From: Geoff Horswood <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: most looked-up words
On Tue, 7 Dec 2004 00:22:36 -0000, And Rosta <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>http://www.merriam-webster.com/info/04words.htm
>
>lists the top 10 words most looked up in the online dictionary
>(excluding hard-to-spell words like _accommodate_ and words
>whose tabooness imparts a frisson to their looking up).
>
>1. blog
>2. incumbent
>3. electoral
>4. insurgent
>5. hurricane
>6. cicada
>7. peloton : noun (1951) : the main body of riders in a bicycle race
>8. partisan
>9. sovereignty
>10. defenestration
>
[snip]
>
>At any rate, I will wager that no conlang has words for all 10.
>My conlang has no word for any of the 10. But one supersized
>all-American kudo to the conlang with the words for the most
>of the 10...
>
>--And.
Without cheating, Xinkutlan has _dabulqudz_ /dabulqud'z/ (hurricane)
from /dabu'l/ "storm" and /qud'zul/ "demon", and "tsizec" /tsIzeS/ (cicada).
I've since worked on "sovereignty", and come up with
_suepetetlui_ /swepetet'Kuj/ from _petetl_ "king" via _suepetetl_ "kingly,
majestic".
All the words for the mechanics of democracy (incumbent, electoral et al)
do not exist in Bronze Age Xinkutlan. And the closest I can come
to "peloton" (new word to me) is _aguir_ /a'gwir/ from _moiaguir_ (_moia_
means "wheel"): a word for a pack (?word) of chariots.
The vocabulary I've got masses of words for is animals. It's fitting, I
suppose, as their tech level isn't too high, but it's getting to be
overkill. There are too many animals and birds (*especially* birds) to
name!
Mind you, I have some interesting domestic animal vocab (the idea stolen
wholesale from Kazakh and then taken a step further)- numbers of words for
livestock depending on gender, age, and whether it has all its parts or has
been castrated.
I need more verbs...
Geoff
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Message: 20
Date: Tue, 7 Dec 2004 15:10:04 -0500
From: Roger Mills <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: OT: Shapes of Fast Food (Re: Souvlaki (was most looked-up words))
Henrik Theiling wrote:
> "Mark J. Reed" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> >...
> > http://www.gyrowrap.com. For the stereotpyical fast-food *hero*
> > sandwich, see http://www.blimpie.com.
>
> Thanks. .-)) And then there are:
>
> 'souvlaki':
> http://www.athensguide.com/souvlaki.html
>
> and 'döner':
> http://www.euro-kebap.com/de/1_kebap.htm
>
Excellent!! Marcos' site looks like what I know as gyros (strips of meat).
Your souvlaki site seems to correspond with Tristan's definition (chunks of
meat)-- perhaps that's a European or at least non-US interpretation. And
the döner looks _exactly_ like the thing I described as the source of gyros
meat. (It's possible that many Greeks in the US came originally from Turkey
in the post-WW I difficulties, though I'm sure both cuisines have influenced
each other.)
Ahimé, autre pays, autres moeurs......
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Message: 21
Date: Tue, 7 Dec 2004 15:20:52 -0500
From: "Elyse M. Grasso" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: CHAT Re: Souvlaki (was most looked-up words)
On Tuesday 07 December 2004 02:40 pm, John Cowan wrote:
> Roger Mills scripsit:
>
> > Truth to tell, I'd never heard of [hero sandwiches] until college
> > years in Boston (50s)-- where they're also called "grinders" (why?????)
>
> Probably because they look like they could reach back to one's grinders,
> i.e. the molars (which is just Latin for "grinders", as in the millstones
> of a grain mill.) The term is general in the whole non-rhotic area around
Boston.
>
> > In New Orleans, "po'boys", in Miami, "Cuban sandwiches".
>
> Cuban sandwiches, unlike the others, are toasted in some kind of device
> that makes them come out compressed.
>
> Other names include "hoagies" (Philadelphia), "torpedoes", "wedges", and
> "zep(pelin)s". Wikipedia thinks the sandwich is not Italian, but was
> designed in New York City for Italian immigrants.
>
> Finally, there is the term "Dagwood sandwich", referring to Blondie's
husband
> in the long-running comic strip _Blondie_. I don't know if this is live
> usage or just a kind of in-joke.
>
> --
> "And it was said that ever after, if any John Cowan
> man looked in that Stone, unless he had a
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> great strength of will to turn it to other www.ccil.org/~cowan
> purpose, he saw only two aged hands withering
www.reutershealth.com
> in flame." --"The Pyre of Denethor"
>
"Grinders" were also the normal usage in Connecticut (rhotic), at least
through 1980.
--
Elyse Grasso
The World of Cherani Station
www.data-raptors.com/cherani/index.html
Cherani Tradespeech
www.data-raptors.com/cherani/tradespeech.html
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Message: 22
Date: Tue, 7 Dec 2004 15:21:28 -0500
From: John Cowan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: The Need for Debate
Steg Belsky scripsit:
> York comes from Norse "Jorvik"? I thought it came from Latin
> "Eboricum" or something like that...
"Eboracum", yes, and before that from some Celtic name. But the Old English
name was "Eoforwic", a case of folk etymology -- the meaningless Latin name
was reinterpreted as "Wild-boar-town". If the name had descended unchanged,
it would have come out Everwich, or something of the sort -- but when the
Danes took over they simplified "Eofor-" to "Jor-" and replaced the ending
with their cognate form "-vik". "York" is a further reduced descendant.
--
Only do what only you can do. John Cowan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--Edsger W. Dijkstra's advice http://www.reutershealth.com
to a student in search of a thesis http://www.ccil.org/~cowan
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Message: 23
Date: Tue, 7 Dec 2004 15:29:46 -0500
From: John Cowan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: CHAT Re: Souvlaki (was most looked-up words)
Elyse M. Grasso scripsit:
> "Grinders" were also the normal usage in Connecticut (rhotic), at least
> through 1980.
What part of it?
The old boundary between non-rhotic east and rhotic west in New England
used to be the Connecticut River, but it's been moving sporadically
eastward for half a century. Some lexemes like "grinders" may have
gotten left behind, or even spread westward.
--
"Kill Gorgûn! Kill orc-folk! John Cowan
No other words please Wild Men. [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Drive away bad air and darkness http://www.reutershealth.com
with bright iron!" --Ghân-buri-Ghân http://www.ccil.org/~cowan
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Message: 24
Date: Tue, 7 Dec 2004 20:24:38 +0000
From: Joe <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: The Need for Debate
Steg Belsky wrote:
> On Dec 7, 2004, at 9:36 AM, Ray Brown wrote:
>
>> ...which as you say is rather one-sided and negative. The same with the
>> Vikings - ask most people about Vikings and you will told about helmets
>> with horns and pillaging & raping. In fact AFAIK there is no evidence
>> for
>> horned helmets - it is IIRC due to a fanciful illustration in some
>> Victorian history book - and they did actually settle and develop quite
>> civilized communities, for example, at Jorvik (York), in Iceland &
>> elsewhere,
>
>
> York comes from Norse "Jorvik"? I thought it came from Latin
> "Eboricum" or something like that...
>
Lat. Eboracum > OE. Eoforwic > ON. Jorvik > MnE York
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Message: 25
Date: Tue, 7 Dec 2004 20:33:05 +0000
From: Joe <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: CHAT Re: Souvlaki (was most looked-up words)
Roger Mills wrote:
>>>Tristan Mc Leay <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>As for 'gyros', I think it's normally pronounced /suvla:ki/
>>>>hereabouts (and spelt 'souvlaki'), based on the description. Usually
>>>>acquired from fish-and-chips shops.
>>>>
>>>>
>Charlie wrote:
>
>
>>>According to the cookbook "Ethnic Cuisines," souvlaki is the Greek
>>>equivalent of the Turkish shish kebab, i.e., meat (and other things)
>>>skewered and grilled.
>>>
>>>
>
>Yes, certainly in my experience: picnic at the homes of Greek friends; meals
>in several echt-Greek restaurants in Detroit (big Greek population there);
>encounters with gyros in same and at street festivals.
>
>
>>Souvlaki in my usage are certainly not shish kebabs and satisfy your
>>definition of gyros. I'm stunned to discover there's any other meaning.
>> And considering how many fish-and-chips shops are run by Greeks, it
>>seems at least a little bit odd.
>>
>>
>
>Historically, even in the US, Greek immigrants are noted for the quantity,
>if not always the quality, of their restaurants.
>
>The thing about gyros is the nature of the meat: a mixture of beef and lamb
>made into a longish loaf thing (I don't know what holds it together,
>however); run through longitudinally with a spit and roasted vertically in
>(nowadays) an electric oven (it has a red-hot glowing coil like a heater or
>hot-plate; not the sort of equipment found in the average home kitchen,
>though I suppose you could do it over or next to an open fire, but someone
>would have to keep turning the spit).
>As the outside cooks, thin slices are removed vertically and put into a
>pita, along with chopped tomato, lettuce, yogurt and maybe cucumber.
>Delicious but messy. Does that description match your Australian "souvlaki"?
>
>
That would be a doner Kebab, at least in the UK. Found in chip shops.
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