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There are 25 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1. Re: Asha'ille site update
From: Arthaey Angosii <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2. Re: Devanagari handwriting?
From: "B. Garcia" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3. Re: Sk�lansk - History and Babel text
From: Keith Gaughan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4. Re: html advice (drat!)
From: Keith Gaughan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5. Re: USAGE: Speak-Say-Tell
From: Philip Newton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6. Re: German style orthography
From: "Pascal A. Kramm" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7. Arabic linguistic terms problem
From: Isaac Penzev <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8. Re: Devanagari handwriting?
From: Isaac Penzev <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9. Re: Sk�lansk - History and Babel text
From: Isaac Penzev <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10. Re: Devanagari handwriting?
From: "Mark J. Reed" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11. Re: CHAT Re: Souvlaki (was most looked-up words)
From: Rodlox <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12. Re: USAGE: Speak-Say-Tell
From: # 1 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13. Re: USAGE: Speak-Say-Tell
From: "Mark J. Reed" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14. Re: HELP: Drawing Arcs
From: And Rosta <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15. Re: CHAT Re: Souvlaki (was most looked-up words)
From: Andreas Johansson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16. Re: Sk�lansk - History and Babel text
From: Keith Gaughan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17. Re: USAGE: Speak-Say-Tell
From: Dirk Elzinga <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18. Re: HELP: Drawing Arcs
From: Keith Gaughan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19. Re: CHAT: The Alex Charalabidis Guide to Souvlaki
From: Tristan Mc Leay <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20. does Language require Deception to exist?
From: Rodlox <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21. does Language require Deception to exist?
From: Rodlox <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22. partial letter replacement in languages?
From: Rodlox <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23. Re: German style orthography
From: bob thornton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24. Re: USAGE: Speak-Say-Tell
From: Roger Mills <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25. Re: VOCABULARY AID: Basic and Additional Vocabulary (topics 1 - 10)
From: Stephen Mulraney <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
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Message: 1
Date: Wed, 8 Dec 2004 12:06:03 -0800
From: Arthaey Angosii <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Asha'ille site update
Emaelivpeith H. S. Teoh:
> > Other, shorter, formats (by popular demand ;) ) are linked from
> >
> > http://arthaey.mine.nu:8080/~arthaey/conlang/lexicon/
>
> The concise dictionary format is nice. The tabular format doesn't show
> up right on both Opera 7.54/Linux and Firefox 0.8/Linux; the right
> column is too wide and extends past the right margin. (This could be a
> side-effect of my stubborn and entirely irrational insistence that
> browser windows be exactly 800 pixels wide, no more, no less. So feel
> free to ignore me if you so choose. :-P)
I'd like it to look nice even at such small ;) screen sizes. But I'm
not sure how to fix this particular problem, besides offering a
single-column table alternative. Suggestions?
> > I've also finally started on putting a grammar up online, though as of
> > now it's still limited. I'll be putting up the rest of it during
> > winter break. The phonology is already there and can be found via
> >
> > http://arthaey.mine.nu:8080/~arthaey/conlang/grammar/
> [...]
>
> jhei. :-)
A'jjha. :)
> I was hoping to find some page that describes how the Roman
> orthography maps to the IPA sounds, though. I know I've seen it before
> (or maybe you told me on IRC) but I can't seem to find it. Is it
> linked from the main page?
It's up there, hiding in the Scripts section. Here's a direct link:
http://arthaey.mine.nu:8080/~arthaey/conlang/scripts/kateinu.html
Do you think that chart belongs in the grammar section, too? Probably so...
Okay, there is now a separate "Romanized Pronuncation" page link from
the Grammar section. :)
> Also, at the bottom of stress.html I see the message: [an error
> occurred while processing this directive]. I don't think this is
> intentional. :-)
What error? No error. You saw nothing. Nothing, I say! (The
non-existent error has now been fixed. ;)
> PS. Whatever happened to the IRC server? It's been down the whole day
> yesterday and still isn't back yet.
I second your question. Hope the machine hasn't died or anything serious...
--
AA
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Message: 2
Date: Wed, 8 Dec 2004 12:03:23 -0800
From: "B. Garcia" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Devanagari handwriting?
Actually, Gujarati is very much like what Devanagari would be like if
it were simplified a bit for ease of handwriting. It lacks
headstrokes. According to my book, it is a variant of Devanagari.
Also, my book says of Devanagari:
"When people write on lined paper, they "hang" the symbold from the
line; but in rapid handwriting on unlined paper, the headstroke may be
eliminated altogether."
So apparently even native writiers of Devanagari find the headstroke
cumbersome in unlined paper and omit it. Which is why Gujarati writing
lacks the headstroke.
The headstroke originally was a sort of serif that got interpreted as
being part of the character.
--
You can turn away from me
but there's nothing that'll keep me here you know
And you'll never be the city guy
Any more than I'll be hosting The Scooby Show
Scooby Show - Belle and Sebastian
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Message: 3
Date: Wed, 8 Dec 2004 20:08:49 +0000
From: Keith Gaughan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Sk�lansk - History and Babel text
Ray Brown wrote:
> On Tuesday, December 7, 2004, at 07:36 , Philip Newton wrote:
>
>> I think OSV is the rarest word order, with few known natlangs using it.
>
> Yes, I think it is. Somewhere I have some statistics on this but I can't
> find them. From what I remember OS order languages are far less common
> than the SO langs, irrespective of where the verb is. IIRC the most common
> words orders are SVO and SOV (and I cannot remember which comes 'top') -
> but in 3rd place comes VSO languages.
The joy of the archives:
http://listserv.brown.edu/archives/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0308d&L=conlang&F=&S=&P=5853
K.
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Message: 4
Date: Wed, 8 Dec 2004 20:15:51 +0000
From: Keith Gaughan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: html advice (drat!)
Roger Mills wrote:
> Would someone please take a look at
> http://cinduworld.tripod.com/supplement.htm
>
> Under the entry "la�-la�" (no doubt of interest per se), I successfully got
> the velar nasal to appear, but the glottal stop (near the end of the entry)
> doesn't show up on my browser (which uses Times New Roman I guess, which
> doesn't have a ? character, no doubt the problem). What must I do to have
> it show up correctly?) You'll note, I have specified UTF-8 in the heading.
> Must I specify a font or font-family?? (If so, I'd prefer something like
> Times New Roman if possible-- i.e with serifs).
I know it's not a serif typeface, but try Lucida Unicode on Windows. I'm
not sure about Mac boxes, but most Windows boxes have it these days, and
I think most Linux boxes (not sure about other *nix) should have it too.
K.
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Message: 5
Date: Wed, 8 Dec 2004 21:13:04 +0100
From: Philip Newton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: USAGE: Speak-Say-Tell
On Wed, 8 Dec 2004 11:30:26 -0700, Muke Tever <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Wed, 8 Dec 2004 12:23:46 -0500, Geoff Horswood <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > What about other natlangs?
>
> In Spanish the ordinary words seem to be "hablar" (speak) and "decir"
> (say, tell).
German also has this two-way division into "sprechen" (speak) and
"sagen" (say, tell). There's also "erz�hlen", but that's more "tell"
in the sense of "recount", as in "tell a story", not so much "tell
someone that [X happened]".
Cheers,
--
Philip Newton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Watch the Reply-To!
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Message: 6
Date: Wed, 8 Dec 2004 15:18:49 -0500
From: "Pascal A. Kramm" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: German style orthography
On Tue, 7 Dec 2004 18:54:25 -0800, bob thornton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>Thanking you, and I ask would this be historical for
>the period?
Pretty much... I've read several texts from around 1900, and the spelling
was hardly different from now, so it would fit there as well.
--
Pascal A. Kramm, author of:
Choton: http://www.choton.org
Ichwara Prana: http://www.choton.org/ichwara/
Sk�lansk: http://www.choton.org/sk/
Advanced English: http://www.choton.org/ae/
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Message: 7
Date: Wed, 8 Dec 2004 22:18:15 +0200
From: Isaac Penzev <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Arabic linguistic terms problem
Dear friends,
as you know, I'm designing an Arabo-Romance conlang "Ajami". Its description
ought to follow Arabic linguistic tradition. Due to this fact, I've met some
problems while composing Ajami grammar description. I'd appreciate if
somebody can give clarifications with respect to the following issues:
The term "Harf" is very ambiguous. It may denote 'letter/character', 'sound'
or 'particle'. The latter class includes prepositions, conjunctions, proper
particles, articles and some other kinds of auxiliary words. Shall I follow
this practice, or find/invent some alternatives?
The term "jam3" traditionally is translated as 'plural'. Farsi uses it in
this sense too. But in Arabic it means rather 'collective noun' that implies
plurality. Ajami has both regular Romance plural and collective forms
borrowed from Arabic which Arabic grammar ususally calls "jam3 mukassar"
(broken plural). The latter may form regular plural too, and demands the
verb and the adjective to agree with it in singular (!) form. An Ajami
example: darso 'lesson' ~ darsos 'several lessons' ~ doruso 'classes',
'course' ~ dorusos 'courses'. Shall I still call the form like darsos
"jam3o"?
Is it OK to classify interrogative adverbs (when? how? etc.) as pronouns?
What is the difference between "qayd" and "Zarf"? Does the latter means
"adverbial modifier" (sentence member) rather than "adverb" (part of
speech)? Or is this difference know exclusively to European school, and
escapes from the Near Eastern point of view?
muHtaraman,
-- Yitzik
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Message: 8
Date: Wed, 8 Dec 2004 23:23:53 +0200
From: Isaac Penzev <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Devanagari handwriting?
Pascal A. Kramm wrote:
> They just bear it, same as with amny other over-complicated thing in
> Sanskrit not found in most other languages (e.g. dual case).
Hmm. You meant dual number, didn't you? It's not as rare as you may think.
It was present in Old Russian (its remnants are still found in all East
Slavic lgs as a "counting form", to be used with numerals 2, 3 and 4 in Nom.
and Acc.), Old English (in personal pronouns), florishes in Hebrew and
Arabic etc.
ObConlang: imitating what Farsi does, Ajami will have a limited set of
borrowed Arabic duals, like |tarafayn| 'both sides' - du. from |t�rafo|
'side (of agreement)'.
-- Yitzik
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Message: 9
Date: Wed, 8 Dec 2004 23:14:08 +0200
From: Isaac Penzev <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Sk�lansk - History and Babel text
Keith Gaughan wrote:
> Pascal A. Kramm wrote:
>
> > Yes, but keep in mind that this decision was made in the late middle
ages,
> > so it refers to their knowledge at that time.
>
> Tsk, tsk! Quite the opposite! Languages with a VSO word order would have
> been quite well-known. Ireland, for a start, was one of the centres of
> learning during the Middle Ages, Gaelic and was one of the first
> langauges with a written grammar. You can count all the other Celtic
> languages in too.
And don't forget the Biblical Hebrew: it's predominantly VSO, esp. in
narratives.
-- Yitzik
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Message: 10
Date: Wed, 8 Dec 2004 16:50:54 -0500
From: "Mark J. Reed" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Devanagari handwriting?
Pascal A. Kramm wrote:
> They just bear it, same as with amny other over-complicated thing in
> Sanskrit not found in most other languages (e.g. dual case).
I suspect your contributions to the list would be better received if you
could avoid the embedded value judgements. Sanskrit was at one time a
living language, which developed naturally by the same process as modern
English, French, German, etc; it's not as if someone sat down to design
it and threw in all these "over-complicated" features out of some
misplaced aesthetic goal.
And of course, speakers don't really "just bear" the most onerous
features of their language; those are exactly the features which are
modified with each new generation and eventually evolve out of the
language's descendants, replaced by something that is in some sense
"simpler" (but which may result in other added complexities).
Writing systems are a separate beast from language, though they are subject
to similar constraints and simplifying tendencies over time. In any
case, the Hindi writers I know are able to write it at least as fluidly
and quickly as I write English; the overline is added as an
afterthought, much the way I dot my 'i's and cross my 't's. I'm just
impressed at how well everything lines up - but then, handwriting on
unlined paper is for me an exercise in keeping non-parallel lines from
intersecting. :)
-Marcos
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Message: 11
Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2004 00:19:15 +0200
From: Rodlox <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: CHAT Re: Souvlaki (was most looked-up words)
----- Original Message -----
From: B. Garcia <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <>
Sent: Wednesday, December 08, 2004 8:00 PM
Subject: Re: CHAT Re: Souvlaki (was most looked-up words)
> On Wed, 8 Dec 2004 10:11:10 +0100, Andreas Johansson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
>
> >
> > Is there an English word for a "half" sandwich, which lacks the upper
bread?
pizza.
(particularly the thicker crusts). :)
..or bagel, waffle....
just trying to help.
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Message: 12
Date: Wed, 8 Dec 2004 16:49:27 -0500
From: # 1 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: USAGE: Speak-Say-Tell
[This message is not in displayable format]
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Message: 13
Date: Wed, 8 Dec 2004 16:56:26 -0500
From: "Mark J. Reed" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: USAGE: Speak-Say-Tell
On Wed, Dec 08, 2004 at 09:13:04PM +0100, Philip Newton wrote:
> On Wed, 8 Dec 2004 11:30:26 -0700, Muke Tever <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > On Wed, 8 Dec 2004 12:23:46 -0500, Geoff Horswood <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > What about other natlangs?
> > In Spanish the ordinary words seem to be "hablar" (speak) and "decir"
> > (say, tell).
>
> German also has this two-way division into "sprechen" (speak) and
> "sagen" (say, tell).
Mandarin Chinese seems to divide things up the other way: there's shuo1,
which is both "say" and "speak", and gao4su, which is "tell" - but not
in the sense of "tell a story/joke", which is jiang3.
But note that in English "speak" can also mean "say", as in the wizard
Shazam's famous command to Billy Batson to "Speak my name!"
-Marcos
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Message: 14
Date: Wed, 8 Dec 2004 22:10:48 -0000
From: And Rosta <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: HELP: Drawing Arcs
David Peterson:
> Huh. I typed "arc pair grammar" into Google, and the first hit
> was a conlang message about how there should be an encyclopedia
> entry for arc pair grammar. Guess that effort failed...?
The writer of the hypothetical article would have to understand
Arc Pair Grammar. AFAIK, nobody but Postal ever did...
> Anyway, I'm creating a grammar for Kamakawi right now that's
> borrowing bits from David Perlmutter and Paul Postal's work, as
> well as a theory I was recently introduced to on discourse analysis.
> In order to put it up somewhere, though, I have to be able to draw
> arcs (preferably with arrows on the end). I've been fruitless in all
> my endeavors. I can't do it with any of the drawing tools on my
> word processor's painting program, and trying to find font pictures
> of arcs has also proven useless (and time-consuming).
>
> I've been trying to find a picture of one of the "trees" (I forget what
> they're called) for RG,
"igloos" (don't know whether that's official RG, or just linguist
slang).
> As you can see, these arrows are extremely malleable, yet they come out
> looking nice and smooth. Does anyone know of a font that has arrows
> like these, or how one can draw them aside from freehand? I'd be
> extremely appreciative.
Word 2000 (of which I'm very fond, even tho it is a Microsoft product)
can do them. Search for "add a curve" in the built-in help; or go to
the Drawing toolbar, choose autoshapes, and then choose curve. To get
the arrowhead you format the line to choose an arrowheaded line.
I know Word Perfect can do them too, but I've never used modern Word
Perfect myself.
--And.
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Message: 15
Date: Wed, 8 Dec 2004 20:07:22 +0100
From: Andreas Johansson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: CHAT Re: Souvlaki (was most looked-up words)
Quoting Stephen Mulraney <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> John Cowan wrote:
> > Andreas Johansson scripsit:
> >
> >>Quoting John Cowan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
>
>
> > Interesting. Is "Dagobert" a common name, or a rare name, or an unheard-of
> > name in Sweden? "Dagwood" seems to absolutely not exist in English except
> > for direct or indirect reference to this character (sandwiches,
> delicatessens,
> > etc.)
The only other bearer of the name I can recall hearing of is the Frankish 7th C
king.
Andreas
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Message: 16
Date: Wed, 8 Dec 2004 22:44:49 +0000
From: Keith Gaughan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Sk�lansk - History and Babel text
Isaac Penzev wrote:
> Keith Gaughan wrote:
>
>>Pascal A. Kramm wrote:
>>
>>>Yes, but keep in mind that this decision was made in the late middle
>>>ages, so it refers to their knowledge at that time.
>>
>>Tsk, tsk! Quite the opposite! Languages with a VSO word order would have
>>been quite well-known. Ireland, for a start, was one of the centres of
>>learning during the Middle Ages, Gaelic and was one of the first
>>langauges with a written grammar. You can count all the other Celtic
>>languages in too.
>
> And don't forget the Biblical Hebrew: it's predominantly VSO, esp. in
> narratives.
You're right! And Classical and Modern Arabic too.
What about the other Semitic languages; are they mostly VSO too?
K.
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Message: 17
Date: Wed, 8 Dec 2004 15:33:42 -0700
From: Dirk Elzinga <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: USAGE: Speak-Say-Tell
Hey.
Shoshoni has several verbs of saying, speaking, telling. Here's what I
found in a quick search of my word lists (in official orthography; <e>
is a high, central unrounded vowel):
niikwi to say, tell (tr)
taikwa to talk (intr) (sg.subj)
yekwi to say something (tr) (sg.subj)
natekwina to tell someone something; to relate a story
Both _taikwa_ and _yekwi_ share a suppletive du and pl subject form
_niwene_.
The other verbs I found seem to be dialect (or idiolect?) variants of
these basic meanings. I don't know what the difference is between
_niikwi_ and _yekwi_; _natekwina_ is reserved for story-telling
(stories are called _natekwinappeh_ 'told (thing)').
English 'speak' is translated by Shoshoni _taikwa_ in the sense of
'speak a language'; 'speak English' is _taipo taikwa_; 'speak Shoshoni'
is _newe taikwa_ or _sosoni taikwa_.
Dirk
On Dec 8, 2004, at 10:23 AM, Geoff Horswood wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I was thinking about the English words "speak", "say", "tell" (and
> "talk"),
> and trying to quantify the exact difference between them.
>
> Specifically, I was wondering whether all the words were strictly
> necessary
> in a language, or whether you could postulate a language with only one
> word
> meaning speak, say, tell or talk, depending on context. How realistic
> is
> this?
>
> (Kazakh has 3 words: /ajtu/ to speak or tell, /deu/ to say, and
> /s2jleu/ to
> talk, plus the compound /djep ajtu/.)
> What about other natlangs?
>
> Geoff
>
>
--
Dirk Elzinga
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
"I believe that phonology is superior to music. It is more variable and
its pecuniary possibilities are far greater." - Erik Satie
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Message: 18
Date: Wed, 8 Dec 2004 22:58:32 +0000
From: Keith Gaughan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: HELP: Drawing Arcs
David Peterson wrote:
> Huh. I typed "arc pair grammar" into Google, and the first hit
> was a conlang message about how there should be an encyclopedia
> entry for arc pair grammar. Guess that effort failed...?
<snip>
> Ahh! Perfect! I found a .gif of an explanation of RG, Ch�meurs et
> tous! Here's the link:
>
> http://www1.elsevier.com/homepage/sal/ellei/images/grammar.gif
>
> As you can see, these arrows are extremely malleable, yet they come out
> looking nice and smooth. Does anyone know of a font that has arrows
> like these, or how one can draw them aside from freehand? I'd be
> extremely appreciative.
I think I've mentioned it on the list before. GraphViz[1] is an
excellent graph and network drawing tool that's probably exactly what
you're looking for. It uses a simple (very simple) declarative language
for specifying the graphs and generates output in a whole host of
formats. It comes with a variety of layout algorithms so you can get it
looking exactly the way you want.
There's also a few GUI tools you can use that come bundled with it, but
they feel like quick hacks. If you've a Mac, this version[2] looks quite
excellent.
K.
[1] http://www.graphviz.org/
[2] http://www.pixelglow.com/graphviz/
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Message: 19
Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2004 10:18:03 +1100
From: Tristan Mc Leay <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: CHAT: The Alex Charalabidis Guide to Souvlaki
On 8 Dec 2004, at 3.01 pm, John Cowan wrote:
> The Alex Charalabidis Guide to Souvlaki
>
...
> [BTW, the archive shows that we had a gyro/souvlaki conversation back
> in September 2003. "The net loses its memory, if not its mind, every
> six months."]
The best thing is that someone only just posted a link to a website
that has this in it---I would prove it but the message is on my other
computer (I knew I didn't like POP for a reason). :)
--
Tristan.
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Message: 20
Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2004 02:40:51 +0200
From: Rodlox <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: does Language require Deception to exist?
not kidding, folks.
In order to have a language, does a species first need to be able to
lie/decieve/trick/fool/bluff others of their species?
*If* a deception-free species could & did have a language, would it be
easily translatable?
food for thought, yes?
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Message: 21
Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2004 02:46:37 +0200
From: Rodlox <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: does Language require Deception to exist?
is there a term for when a language is evolving/being changed, & replaces
one letter with another (ie, /d/ becomes /t/) in nearly all instances...yet
there are still words in the resultant language which retain (to continue
the example) /d/ ?
thanks.
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Message: 22
Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2004 02:48:04 +0200
From: Rodlox <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: partial letter replacement in languages?
(sorry...one posting of 'does language require deception to exist' is
actually this message, while the other posting really is about language and
deception...I mean no offense, and beg your pardons).
is there a term for when a language is evolving/being changed, & replaces
one letter with another (ie, /d/ becomes /t/) in nearly all instances...yet
there are still words in the resultant language which retain (to continue the
example) /d/ ?
thanks.
[This message contained attachments]
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Message: 23
Date: Wed, 8 Dec 2004 16:29:35 -0800
From: bob thornton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: German style orthography
--- "Pascal A. Kramm" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Tue, 7 Dec 2004 18:54:25 -0800, bob thornton
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> >Thanking you, and I ask would this be historical
> for
> >the period?
>
> Pretty much... I've read several texts from around
> 1900, and the spelling
> was hardly different from now, so it would fit there
> as well.
Thanks muchly. I've decided to go with a mixture of
the two systems, with some additions of my own
Do please indicate what you all think.
stops:
/p/ p
/b/ b
/t/ t
/d/ d
/k/ k
/g/ g
/q/ q
nasals:
/m/ m
/n/ n
/N/ ng
fricatives:
/P/ f
/B/ w
/T/ � (thorn)
/D/ � (edh)
/s/ s
/s_m/ � (esszat)
/z/ s
/z_m/ � (esszat)
/C/ ch
/j\/ jh
/x/ ch
/X/ qh
laterals:
/l/ l
/L/ ll
approximates:
/j/ j
rhotic:
/rR\/ r
affricates:
/tT/ t� (t-thorn)
/dD/ t� (t-edh)
/ts/ z
/dz/ ds
/tC/ tch
/dj\/ djh
/kx/ kch
/qX/ qq
"whistleized":
/s_m_W/ �� (esszat-u-diaeresis)
/z_m_W/ �� (esszat-u-diaeresis)
/C_W/ ch� (ch-u-diaeresis)
/j\_W/ jh� (jh-u-diaeresis)
/x_W/ ch� (ch-u-diaeresis)
/t_W/ t� (t-u-diaeresis)
/d_W/ d� (d-u-diaeresis)
/k_W/ k� (k-u-diaeresis)
/g_W/ g� (g-u-diaeresis)
vowels:
/i/ ie
/I/ i
/e/ e
/@/ � (e-diaeresis)
/&/ � (a-diaeresis)
/u/ u
/O/ o
/A/ a
I am also thinking of either introducing a length
distinction or dipthongs. Which would you all
recommend, upon seeing the orthography and phonology?
=====
-The Sock
"My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings:
Look upon my works, ye Mighty, and despair!"
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Message: 24
Date: Wed, 8 Dec 2004 20:21:20 -0500
From: Roger Mills <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: USAGE: Speak-Say-Tell
Geoff Horswood wrote:
>
> I was thinking about the English words "speak", "say", "tell" (and
> "talk"),
> and trying to quantify the exact difference between them.
>
> Specifically, I was wondering whether all the words were strictly
> necessary
> in a language, or whether you could postulate a language with only one
> word
> meaning speak, say, tell or talk, depending on context. How realistic is
> this?
>
I'm sure it's possible, though I don't know of any offhand.
Indonesian uses two words, principally:
kata ('word'): ber/kata to say, to speak (intr.)-- this can be followed with
1. direct quote, 2. indirect speech 3. manner adverb
Derivs: mengatakan to tell-- can take either DO or IO
memperkatakan to talk about, deliberate
(Oddly, the simple active mengata means 'to scold')
Short form: kata+possessive, lit. my/your/his~her etc. word = I/you, he etc.
said....
The other is bicara: berbicara to speak (intr., or trans. with a language,
words etc. as object), or intrans. with manner adverb;
membicarakan to discuss
To tell a story: specific word, ber/ceritera ~ber/cerita (intr.)
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Message: 25
Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2004 00:55:40 +0000
From: Stephen Mulraney <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: VOCABULARY AID: Basic and Additional Vocabulary (topics 1 - 10)
Carsten Becker wrote:
> On Tuesday 30 November 2004 17:26, J�rg Rhiemeier wrote:
>
> > What do you mean by "book of my father's"? Did your
> > father write that book, or does he happen to own a copy
> > which you used?
>
> Oh. An ambiguous sentence -- No it is copied from an
> "Aufbauwortschatz" my father possesses a copy of.
It might be strictly ambiguous, but I didn't find it so. I think that unless
it's known that my father is an author, "a book of my father's" really has to
be "a book my father possesses"; If I really meant that my father wrote the
book, (and it wasn't known that my father was an author), then I'd need to
signal it more clearly somehow.
> Sorry for confusion. Those possessive 'S'es can drive me
> crazy ...
I think you handled it perfectly.
�0.02
s. (who, for the first time since quotas were introduced, has used five
posts in one day -one Rhode Island day, anyway. It's past midnight *here*)
--
Stephen Mulraney [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://livejournal.com/~ataltane
I remember that I tried several times to use a slide rule, and that, several
times also, I began modern maths textbooks, saying to myself that if I were
going slowly, if I read all the lessons all in order, doing the exercises
and all, there was no reason why I should stall -- Georges Perec
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