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There are 25 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1. Re: /x/ and 'inter-Germanic'
From: Benct Philip Jonsson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2. Re: Sauron's conlang (was: Intergermansk - Three Rings)
From: Rodlox <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3. Re: Supposed Celtic semiticisms
From: Rodlox <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4. Re: Sauron's conlang (was: Intergermansk - Three Rings)
From: Andreas Johansson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5. Re: /x/ and 'inter-Germanic'
From: Isaac Penzev <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6. Re: Sauron's conlang (was: Intergermansk - Three Rings)
From: # 1 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7. Intergermansk - Pizza packaging text :D
From: "Pascal A. Kramm" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8. Re: CHAT: poetry, particularly three rings (was Re: Intergermansk -
Three Rings)
From: "Mark J. Reed" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9. Re: (offlist) North Wind story Re: Intergermansk - Three Rings
From: "Pascal A. Kramm" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10. Re: Spelling, was Re: Alteutonik
From: Muke Tever <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11. Re: Intergermansk - Three Rings
From: "Pascal A. Kramm" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12. Re: Sauron's conlang (was: Intergermansk - Three Rings)
From: "Pascal A. Kramm" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13. Re: OT-Slang, curses and vulgarities-Esperanto
From: "Pascal A. Kramm" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14. Re: Intergermansk - Three Rings
From: Arthaey Angosii <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15. Re: OT: RE: Slang, curses and vulgarities
From: René Uittenbogaard <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16. Re: Sauron's conlang (was: Intergermansk - Three Rings)
From: "Mark J. Reed" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17. Re: Slang, curses and vulgarities
From: kcasada <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18. ANNOUNCE: CXS<->IPA converter online
From: Henrik Theiling <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19. Re: Intergermansk - Three Rings
From: Stephen Mulraney <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20. Re: OT: RE: Slang, curses and vulgarities
From: Steven Williams <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21. Re: Slang, curses and vulgarities
From: Paul Bennett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22. Re: Slang, curses and vulgarities
From: "Thomas R. Wier" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23. Re: Slang, curses and vulgarities
From: Muke Tever <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24. Re: Verbs Outside of the Slavic
From: Elliott Lash <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25. Re: Slang, curses and vulgarities
From: Kevin Athey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 1
Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 21:19:31 +0100
From: Benct Philip Jonsson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: /x/ and 'inter-Germanic'
Ray Brown wrote:
> On Friday, January 28, 2005, at 07:51 , Benct Philip Jonsson wrote:
>
>> Ray Brown wrote:
>>
>>> I had not realized, I admit, that /S/ in modern Swedish was now
>>> (generally/
>>> always?) pronounced [x]. That is interesting, and parallels the
>>> change of
>>> earlier Spanish /S/ to the modern /X/ as, for example, in _Mexico_
>>> /'meSiko/ --> _Mejico_ /'meXiko/.
>>
>>
>> It has been spreading northward from southernmost Sweden for more
>> than a century -- apparently reaching the Stockholm area after the
>> WW2 period, but it has not yet reached the northern half of Sweden,
>> where we instead find merger of earlier /S/ and /rs/,
>
>
> Presumably as [s`]?
Yes, I simply forgot to write that!
>
>> nor has it
>> reached the Swedish-speaking parts of Finland where /S/ actually
>> is realized [s\] -- the actual pronunciation of traditional "/C/"
>> on the mainland --, while "/C/" is [ts\] and /rs/ is still [rs].
>
>
> So [x] is not even universal in Swedish -
No, but it is certainly *dominant* per capita, as it has
conquered all the most populous parts of the country.
Moreover it is recomendable to foreign learners, as it
helps to optimize phonemic distinction, and [S] carries
some stigma as snobbish and/or effeminate in some [x]-using
areas, while the reverse is not true.
> nor, it appears, is the ich-laut
> universal there either. Interesting.
Except insofar as [s\] is a variant of the ich-laut, which
is how most Swedes (and Germans) perceive it, although [s\]
has assibilation and [C] hasn't.
>
>> One often cited reason for the spread of [x] is the "need" to
>> preserve the distinction against /rs/ [s`], but that does not
>> hold true of the area where [x] originated, since they have
>> [Rs] for /rs/.
>
>
> I suppose it could argued that twofold development of /S/ --> [x], and /rs/
> --> [Rs] are both reactions to an earlier tendency to realize both sounds
> as [s`]. It could be that use of the uvular [R] for the one development
> gave rise to the shift to [x] ([X]?) for the other.
Except that [R] and retroflexion are mutually exclusive in
the dialects, and there runs a quite sharp boundary through
southern Sweden. The [R]-using area was never retroflexing,
but at the same time it is the area where [x] originated!
>
> Actually, despite what Andreas & Pascal have subsequently written, it is
> fairly obvious that my original remark has not been shown to be in correct:
> {quote}
> The Folkspraak Charter stated: "The primary design principle is that
> Folkspraak omit any linguistic feature not common to most of the modern
> Germanic languages." So it omits /x/ as it doesn't occur in English (and
> indeed seems to present the same sort of problems to my fellow countryman
> as /T/ nd /D/ do to yours) nor the continental Scandinavian languages (tho
> it does occur in Afrikaans :)
> {\quote}
Sure. If *I* (absit omen) were to design an intergermanic conlang
I would start from the common North-West Germanic sound system, before
umlaut, palatalization and the High German sound shift, but merge */T/
into /t/ and /d/ and allow [v] as a realization of /w/ and [ju] as
a realization of /iu/eu/.
>
> I did write /x/ and NOT [x]. There is a difference!
Indeed.
>
> It is quite clear from Philip's mail that Swedish does not have /x/; it is
> just that some varieties of Swedish have [x] as a realization of the
> phoneme /S/, while in other Swedish speaking areas it is realized as [s`]
> or [s\].
There is a distinct /s\/ phoneme, realized as an affricate in Finland.
The realization of x/S prescribed for newsreaders is [x\], the [X]/[S]
coarticulation, but as the vast majority of speakers have [x] I regard
/x/ as a reasonable simplified notation in ASCII, as well as /C/ for /s\/.
>
> Ray
> ===============================================
> http://home.freeuk.com/ray.brown
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> ===============================================
> Anything is possible in the fabulous Celtic twilight,
> which is not so much a twilight of the gods
> as of the reason." [JRRT, "English and Welsh" ]
>
>
--
/BP 8^)>
--
Benct Philip Jonsson -- melroch at melroch dot se
Solitudinem faciunt pacem appellant!
(Tacitus)
________________________________________________________________________
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Message: 2
Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 23:25:28 +0200
From: Rodlox <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Sauron's conlang (was: Intergermansk - Three Rings)
> >>>> I do not think he did. Of course the Black Speech was a conlang,
> >>>> devised
> >>>> by Sauron ;)
> Obviously that way, what else? Let me quote the sentence in full:
> "It is said that the Black Speech was devised by Sauron in the Dark Years,
> and that he had desired to make it the language of all those that served
> him, but failed in his purpose"
so in other words, Sauron attempted to make an International Language?
hrmm...are Ents capable of speaking Black Speech?
(*not* "would an Ent *want to*?"...*could an Ent* instead).
________________________________________________________________________
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Message: 3
Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 23:21:10 +0200
From: Rodlox <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Supposed Celtic semiticisms
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Ray Brown" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Sent: Friday, January 28, 2005 8:58 PM
> > Subject: Re: Supposed Celtic semiticisms
> >
> >> The question nevertheless remains as to why these developments took
place
> >> in Ireland & Britain.
> >
> > coincidence?
>
> Yes - but that still does not explain _why_ 'Insular Celtic' developed the
> way it did.
true...but coincidence might explain the one similarity between two
otherwise dissimilar languages. yes?
> There are, of course, also other features shared by the
> Insular Celtic langs that AFAIK have no analog in the Semitic langs -
...and thus those features would not be covered by the "coincidence" above.
===============================================
>
> > On Saturday, January 29, 2005, at 01:27 , damien perrotin wrote:
> >
> > Skrivet gant Rodlox:
sounds painful.
:)
> Ah! Rodlox's laconic reply is rather ambiguous. I understood him to be
> asking if it was just a coincidence that the developments in Ireland &
> Britain had parallels in the Semitic langs. But, especially with just the
> bit of my mail he quoted, he could be asking if was a coincidence that the
> Gaelic languages developed in a similar way to the Brittonic ones.
or to both.
(to be honest, I've forgotten myself).
((wait, that was too too ambiguous)).
:)
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Message: 4
Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 22:43:52 +0100
From: Andreas Johansson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Sauron's conlang (was: Intergermansk - Three Rings)
Quoting Rodlox <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> > >>>> I do not think he did. Of course the Black Speech was a conlang,
> > >>>> devised
> > >>>> by Sauron ;)
>
> > Obviously that way, what else? Let me quote the sentence in full:
> > "It is said that the Black Speech was devised by Sauron in the Dark Years,
> > and that he had desired to make it the language of all those that served
> > him, but failed in his purpose"
>
> so in other words, Sauron attempted to make an International Language?
Yup. Some people have interpreted it as a jab at Esperanto, which JRRT, IIRC,
disliked on the grounds it wasn't "organic" enough.
> hrmm...are Ents capable of speaking Black Speech?
>
> (*not* "would an Ent *want to*?"...*could an Ent* instead).
Well, there's no reason not to assume they could have learnt it, given they had
someone willing to teach them.
Andreas
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Message: 5
Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 00:15:00 +0200
From: Isaac Penzev <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: /x/ and 'inter-Germanic'
Benct Philip Jonsson wrote:
> Sure. If *I* (absit omen) were to design an intergermanic conlang
Guys. That all is very interesting. You may succeed in provoking me to start
such a project...
Watching other threads too (souls, Russian stress and verb aspects).
Still have no opportunity to take more active part because of Real Life
(TM).
-- Yitzik
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Message: 6
Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 17:42:15 -0500
From: # 1 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Sauron's conlang (was: Intergermansk - Three Rings)
Rodlox wrote:
> > Obviously that way, what else? Let me quote the sentence in full:
> > "It is said that the Black Speech was devised by Sauron in the Dark
>Years,
> > and that he had desired to make it the language of all those that
>served
> > him, but failed in his purpose"
>
>so in other words, Sauron attempted to make an International Language?
I think he probably wanted it to be a universal language, he wanted
everybody being his servants (or dead) and that way his servants would learn
it as first language
-Max
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Message: 7
Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 18:16:16 -0500
From: "Pascal A. Kramm" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Intergermansk - Pizza packaging text :D
I got the idea while eating pizza (Dr. Oetker Ristorante Speciale):
How about if I submit my lang to an acid test and see how well it can
translate a real-world example text? :D
So here is the translation of the text on the pizza packaging, see for
yourself how much of it you can understand:
Richlig topte med käs, salami, champinjons och shink on krisp, dinn boden.
Tillbereiding
-------------
1. Forwarm oven
Elektro-oven: 220-230°C
Warmluft: 200°C
Gas: 4-5
2. Fjern plast. Bak diep-frostte pizza 10-12min. on rost in neder trite fra
oven (warmluft 9-10 min).
3. Pizza is ferdig wenn käs is goldjello.
Holdbarheit
-----------
- * froster (-6°C): 4 dags
- ** froster (-12°C): 3 weks
- *** froster (-16°C): mindst holdbar till: seh datum on kant
Qalitetsgarant
--------------
Ristorante pizzas is machte med spezial selektte ingrediens under strikt
qalitetskontroll. Shull du haf grunn for klag, bid send nur deil fra packet
med holdbarhedsdatum och produktionsdatum.
btw: Hint from the maître de cuisine: The pizza gets better if you set the
temperature to 175°C only and bake it 5min. longer :)
Here's a link to the page with the English translation where you can see how
well you did:
http://www.choton.org/ig/texts.html#pizza
--
Pascal A. Kramm, author of:
Intergermansk: http://www.choton.org/ig/
Chatiga: http://www.choton.org/chatiga/
Choton: http://www.choton.org
Ichwara Prana: http://www.choton.org/ichwara/
Skälansk: http://www.choton.org/sk/
Advanced English: http://www.choton.org/ae/
________________________________________________________________________
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Message: 8
Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 18:54:40 -0500
From: "Mark J. Reed" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: CHAT: poetry, particularly three rings (was Re: Intergermansk -
Three Rings)
On Sat, Jan 29, 2005 at 05:40:35PM +1100, Tristan McLeay wrote:
> I think rhythm is much more important than rhyme to good poetry.
I think both are important.
> instance, in the second half of this poem, the rhythm is quite strong
> and regular and the verse is good and strong, but there is no rhyming*
> at all
Eh? The second half certainly does rhyme. If you discount the
"all/all" rhyme because it's the same word, you still have "bind them"
and "find them". Which doesn't count as a same-word rhyme because the
stressed foot is on the first syllable.
> >
> >/ / ^ ^ / ^ ^ / ^ ^ /
> either that or:
> / / ^ ^ / ^ / / ^ ^ /
> >Three rings for the Elven-kings under the sky
> >
> >/ (^) ^ ^ / ^ ^ / ^ ^ /
> / ^ ^ ^ / / ^ ^ / ^ /
> >Seven for the Dwarf-lords in their halls of stone
> >/ ^ ^ / ^ ^ / ^ /
> / ^ ^ / / / ^ / /
> >One for the Dark Lord on his Dark Throne
I can read both lines either way. My version doesn't feel unnatural;
e.g. the stress on "their" feels like a natural emphasis on the
distinction between the Elves and the Dwarves. "THEY are under the Sky,
while THESE guys are in stone halls."
> >In the land of Mordor where the shadows lie
> >/ ^ / ^ / ^ / ^ / ^ /
> this is perhaps the only one I find better than how I'd been reading
> it, which was:
> ^ ^ / ^ / ^ ^ ^ / ^ /
Yeah, your way doesn't feel at all rhythmic to me
> I think your form has more repeatability, but it's overly bouncy...
The whole thing is "bouncy", really. Intense, beat beat beat beat.
I think it's intentional. :)
-Marcos
-Marcos
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Message: 9
Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 19:14:14 -0500
From: "Pascal A. Kramm" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: (offlist) North Wind story Re: Intergermansk - Three Rings
On Fri, 28 Jan 2005 17:09:13 -0500, Roger Mills <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>Hello Pascal--
>
>Here are several versions of the North Wind story (the official version is
>in the IPA manual I think; it's standard for phonetic examples):
>http://www.cix.co.uk/~morven/lang/nws.html
>http://cinduworld.tripod.com/alphabet.htm
>http://www.angelfire.com/ego/pdf/ng/lng/draseleq/dc_tnwats.html
Thanks for the links :)
>> Item #50325 (28 Sep 2001 12:02) - Re: Tirehlat romanization
>> The page http://www.zompist.com/phrases.html is a *great* tourist
>> phrase book that follows this line. The first phrase is "I wish to
>> complain!", and they get more interesting from there.
>>
>> Was it that you meant?
>>
>No, but it would do. But I clearly remember translations of one on Conlang
>by several people... Aha, here's the original:
>http://listserv.brown.edu/archives/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0006c&L=conlang&F=&S=&P=19321
>--(all one line) or look up June 2000, week 3, "Conlangea Multilingual
>Phrasebook, 2nd Ed." I didn't realize it was that early.
Ok, that's nice... however, it says a second part to follow soon, but I
didn't find one?
--
Pascal A. Kramm, author of:
Intergermansk: http://www.choton.org/ig/
Chatiga: http://www.choton.org/chatiga/
Choton: http://www.choton.org
Ichwara Prana: http://www.choton.org/ichwara/
Skälansk: http://www.choton.org/sk/
Advanced English: http://www.choton.org/ae/
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Message: 10
Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 17:16:54 -0700
From: Muke Tever <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Spelling, was Re: Alteutonik
Doug Dee <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
>
>> One of my own half-baked [English] spelling reform schemes proposed
>> two different spelling systems, one for native words and one for Romance
>> ones.
>
> Just out of curiosity, what was the plan for other words? (E.g., words of
> American Indian origin.)
Well, it was only *half* baked. But presumably it'd be whichever
was the least outrageous to spell. (i.e., probably the Romancish,
looking at these notes o-O)
*Muke!
--
website: http://frath.net/
LiveJournal: http://kohath.livejournal.com/
deviantArt: http://kohath.deviantart.com/
FrathWiki, a conlang and conculture wiki:
http://wiki.frath.net/
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Message: 11
Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 19:17:31 -0500
From: "Pascal A. Kramm" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Intergermansk - Three Rings
On Fri, 28 Jan 2005 15:21:10 -0800, Arthaey Angosii <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>Emaelivpeith Pascal A. Kramm:
>> >"The North Wind and the Sun" is always useful.
>>
>> Where could I find that?
>
>I have a link to the text, as well as the phrasebook, at:
>
> http://arthaey.mine.nu:8080/~arthaey/conlang/translationex.html
My, that are surely a lot of useful links... thanks! :)
>I also have links on my page to Draseléq and Wenedyk translations.
>Others who have translated it are welcome to email me and I'll link to
>your site or post, too! :)
Ok, I'll go translate it and post it here when done :)
Could you then add it there as well?
>> Item #50325 (28 Sep 2001 12:02) - Re: Tirehlat romanization
>> The page http://www.zompist.com/phrases.html is a *great* tourist
>> phrase book that follows this line. The first phrase is "I wish to
>> complain!", and they get more interesting from there.
>
>I didn't have a link to this one; thanks!
No problem :)
Although his one was done with a humoristic intention, rather than being
actually useable...
--
Pascal A. Kramm, author of:
Intergermansk: http://www.choton.org/ig/
Chatiga: http://www.choton.org/chatiga/
Choton: http://www.choton.org
Ichwara Prana: http://www.choton.org/ichwara/
Skälansk: http://www.choton.org/sk/
Advanced English: http://www.choton.org/ae/
________________________________________________________________________
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Message: 12
Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 19:35:14 -0500
From: "Pascal A. Kramm" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Sauron's conlang (was: Intergermansk - Three Rings)
On Sat, 29 Jan 2005 18:11:12 +0000, Ray Brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>On Friday, January 28, 2005, at 09:19 , Pascal A. Kramm wrote:
>[snip]
>> On Fri, 28 Jan 2005 20:40:13 +0100, Andreas Johansson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Quoting "Pascal A. Kramm" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
>[snip]
>>>> It could have been a completely normal and natural
>>>> lang before Sauron came and changed Mordor into the Land of Shadows...
>
>{sigh}
>I did append a smiley to my remark! Why turn a remark that (I thought) was
>obviously meant to be humorous into a contentious issue?
Huh? "contentious issue"? Aren't you taking things a little too serious?
I just named the IMO most likely action how he created his conlang.
>Obviously that way, what else? Let me quote the sentence in full:
>"It is said that the Black Speech was devised by Sauron in the Dark Years,
> and that he had desired to make it the language of all those that served
>him, but failed in his purpose"
Well, he would've had more success if he'd posted here before and asked for
suggestions ;)
>> But probably it was based on the language that was
>> spoken there before and not made up out of thin air :)
>
>Good grief!! How does that stop it being a *conlang*?
It doesn't... did I ever say it wouldn't? Nah.
>Is Intergermansk not
>based on languages already spoken in central & western Europe? Are not
>Volapük, Esperanto, Novial, Interglossa, Frater, Choton and many other
>auxlangs based on languages already spoken?
Of course they are.
>*NOWHERE* did I even suggest that Sauron composed an a_priori language
>("made up of out of thin air")!!
Well, your response to my suggestion (that he did base his conlang on
pre-existing langs) seemed indeed to suggest that yyou meant he did create a
'a priori' lang:
"It could have been a completely normal and natural
lang before Sauron came and changed Mordor into the Land of Shadows..."
So if he did *not* create an 'a priori' lang, this is exactly what happened,
he used already spoken lang(s) (most probably the previous lang of Mordor)
to create his conlang.
--
Pascal A. Kramm, author of:
Intergermansk: http://www.choton.org/ig/
Chatiga: http://www.choton.org/chatiga/
Choton: http://www.choton.org
Ichwara Prana: http://www.choton.org/ichwara/
Skälansk: http://www.choton.org/sk/
Advanced English: http://www.choton.org/ae/
________________________________________________________________________
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Message: 13
Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 19:46:48 -0500
From: "Pascal A. Kramm" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: OT-Slang, curses and vulgarities-Esperanto
On Sat, 29 Jan 2005 12:39:08 EST, Martha C. Cardenas <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
>While researching Esperanto a couple of months ago, I came across this
>website:
>
>_The Alternative Esperanto Dictionary_
>(http://www.notam02.no/~hcholm/altlang/ht/Esperanto.html)
Hmm, very interesting - might also be a nice practice translating these :D
--
Pascal A. Kramm, author of:
Intergermansk: http://www.choton.org/ig/
Chatiga: http://www.choton.org/chatiga/
Choton: http://www.choton.org
Ichwara Prana: http://www.choton.org/ichwara/
Skälansk: http://www.choton.org/sk/
Advanced English: http://www.choton.org/ae/
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 14
Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 16:49:36 -0800
From: Arthaey Angosii <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Intergermansk - Three Rings
Emaelivpeith Pascal A. Kramm:
> >I also have links on my page to Draseléq and Wenedyk translations.
> >Others who have translated it are welcome to email me and I'll link to
> >your site or post, too! :)
>
> Ok, I'll go translate it and post it here when done :)
> Could you then add it there as well?
Of course! :) If you only post to the list, then I'll link to the
archive. If you also put it on a webpage, I'll link to that instead.
> No problem :)
> Although his one was done with a humoristic intention, rather than being
> actually useable...
Words is words is words, for translation exercise purposes. :)
--
AA
http://arthaey.mine.nu:8080/
(watch the Reply-To!)
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Message: 15
Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 01:50:34 +0100
From: René Uittenbogaard <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: OT: RE: Slang, curses and vulgarities
Steven Williams wrote:
> --- "J. 'Mach' Wust" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> schrieb:
>
>
>>Intensifiers that originate in the vulgar language
>>may become part of the
>>unmarked, educated standard one day, as has happened
>>e.g. in the German word
>>_sehr_ 'much': It's original meaning is still
>>preserved in English _sore_,
>>and there are some German dialect that still
>>preserve that use alongside the
>>standard German one.
>
>
> Wow, that's interesting! I was wondering where 'sehr'
> came from, or whether there were an English cognate,
> and it turns out to be 'sore'. That fits perfectly.
Dutch still has both uses:
Dit doet zeer. (This hurts)
een zere plek (a sore spot)
Dit is zeer goed. (This is very good)
Ik waardeer het zeer. (I appreciate it very much)
Afrikaans has "seer" at least in the meaning of sore/hurt. I guess it's
not used for very/much any more, since "baie" has taken over that meaning.
René
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Message: 16
Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 20:01:06 -0500
From: "Mark J. Reed" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Sauron's conlang (was: Intergermansk - Three Rings)
On Sat, Jan 29, 2005 at 07:35:14PM -0500, Pascal A. Kramm wrote:
> Well, your response to my suggestion (that he did base his conlang on
> pre-existing langs) seemed indeed to suggest that yyou meant he did create a
> 'a priori' lang:
> "It could have been a completely normal and natural
> lang before Sauron came and changed Mordor into the Land of Shadows..."
> So if he did *not* create an 'a priori' lang, this is exactly what happened,
> he used already spoken lang(s) (most probably the previous lang of Mordor)
> to create his conlang.
>
It seems that one of us misunderstands the terms "a priori" and "a posteriori".
And I don't know which one of us Ray agrees with. But I would say that
Esperanto is an a posteriori lang, not an a priori one - it's vocabulary
was not made up out of thin air, but based on various existing languages.
Even so, there exists no language that you can point to and say "that's
what Esperanto used to be before it was Esperanto."
-Marcos
> --
> Pascal A. Kramm, author of:
> Intergermansk: http://www.choton.org/ig/
> Chatiga: http://www.choton.org/chatiga/
> Choton: http://www.choton.org
> Ichwara Prana: http://www.choton.org/ichwara/
> Skälansk: http://www.choton.org/sk/
> Advanced English: http://www.choton.org/ae/
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Message: 17
Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 19:34:26 -0600
From: kcasada <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Slang, curses and vulgarities
I've got to disagree. Cursing plays different roles in culture, but I for one
avoid it as a matter of principle, and I seem to recall reading about at least
one American Indian language that simply doesn't feature it.
Krista
>===== Original Message From Carsten Becker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Agreed. Cursing is a part of culture. Most certainly,
>there's not one single day where you haven't cursed.
>
>Carsten
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Message: 18
Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 02:26:20 +0100
From: Henrik Theiling <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: ANNOUNCE: CXS<->IPA converter online
Hi!
I just finished enhancing my CXS/IPA page a bit by face-lifting, and,
more importantly, by adding a small script that allows online
conversion between IPA and CXS (both directions).
http://www.theiling.de/ipa/
At the top of the page, there is a new text input where IPA or CXS can
be pasted. The script will (hopefully) automatically determine
whether you wrote something in IPA or in CXS and convert accordingly.
Your browser must be able to handle IPA fonts and Unicode: the script
does not produce graphical output, just plain HTML.
Please test, enjoy, and report bugs (hopefully not :-))...
Bye,
Henrik
PS: I also noticed that the Perl module had a bug in the IPA->CXS
direction and did not work on old Perl interpreters (those that
cannot handle unpack/pack('U'...). My web provider uses such an
old beast...
So there's an updated Perl module, too.
PPS: And I added a Lisp module for conversion, too.
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Message: 19
Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 02:49:36 +0000
From: Stephen Mulraney <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Intergermansk - Three Rings
Tristan McLeay wrote:
> On 28 Jan 2005, at 9.27 am, Pascal A. Kramm wrote:
>
>> On Thu, 27 Jan 2005 22:50:26 +0100, Andreas Johansson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Quoting "Pascal A. Kramm" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
>>>
>>>> Here's the "Three Rings" text. First part doesn't rhyme, but I
>>>> didn't see a
>>>> way on how to get "himmel" and "sterf" or "stein" and "tron" to
>>>> rhyme...
> Yes indeed! I couldn't work out 'dunkel', 'sterf' or 'hersh', but
> everything else was quite obvious :) (I mean, given the context I
> could, but they're the ones that don't have obvious English cognates.)
Well, the cognate of "sterf" in English is "starve", although the
German ("sterben") and the Intergermansk word (I guess) mean "die"
generally.
As for the German words "dunkel" and "Herr", I can't think of English
cognates at the moment. Are there any still around? "Dunkel" doesn't
sound too different from "dark" anyway, especially if we exclude the
"-el" ending. Oh, just noticed: Pascal says it's cognate to "dusk".
> I'll enjoy hearing more of this one.
Me too! It didn't really attract my attention at first, but this
translation won me over :). My favourite line:
"En for Dunkel Herr up ers dunkel tron"
- the "up ers" bit, especially.
> Tristan.
s.
--
Stephen Mulraney [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://ataltane.net
This post brought to you by the letter 3 and the number 0xF
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Message: 20
Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 04:26:38 +0100
From: Steven Williams <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: OT: RE: Slang, curses and vulgarities
--- Henrik Theiling <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> schrieb:
> Actually, there is one common German word that uses
> the stem in its
> original meaning: 'unversehrt', meaning 'unbroken',
> 'unscathed',
> 'undamaged', 'without any injury or damage' (usually
> used for people,
> i.e., cognate to 'sore'). Its morpheme breakup is
> 'un-ver-sehr-t',
> thus negation 'un-' plus the perfect passive
> partiple of a verb
> *'versehren', which is not in use (anymore).
Actually, I was thinking just that; 'versehren' came
to mind when I thought of other words that were
cognate to 'sore'.
> I heard the positive form 'versehrt' only once (that
> I remember): it
> was when someone commented on a terrible train
> accident where some 200
> people where killed, and he used 'all die versehrten
> Leichen' to
> describe what the place was like. It gave me the
> impression of a
> *very* strong way to speak of 'all the broken
> corpses'.
There's also a song, 'Salamandrina' by Einstuerzende
Neubauten, that uses that word, though I could be
confusing it for the verb 'verzehren' (to consume);
both interpretations make sense to me:
"Wir irren des Nachts [sic] im Kreis umher und werden
vom Feuer versehrt/verzehrt."
Initially, I thought 'versehren' meant 'to sear' or
'to burn', almost synonymous with 'verbrennen'; I
would have imagined two hundred smoking corpses, which
I wouldn't quite expect from a train accident.
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Message: 21
Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 23:55:55 -0500
From: Paul Bennett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Slang, curses and vulgarities
On Sat, 29 Jan 2005 19:34:26 -0600, kcasada <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I've got to disagree. Cursing plays different roles in culture, but I
> for one
> avoid it as a matter of principle, and I seem to recall reading about at
> least
> one American Indian language that simply doesn't feature it.
I had heard that Japanese doesn't feature it, and that the closest it
comes is "a mistake had been made". Ten years of studying languages and
linguistics later (but not, you'll note, Japanese (at least in any depth))
has convinced me that the phrase "X does not exist in language Y" is
always false, or at least always arguable, however.
Paul
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Message: 22
Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 00:01:07 -0600
From: "Thomas R. Wier" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Slang, curses and vulgarities
Carsten wrote:
> Interestingly, "f*ck" and "sh*t" have made it into the
> German language although we have of course own words for
> these.
Yeah... I remember at a German summerschool I went to, one
of the participants said she remembered being on a subway
in Germany, and some guy, though otherwise speaking only
German, speaking into his cellphone said "Oh, megafuck!"
> Even more interestingly, "(to) kick ass" means
> something positive in English ("Oh my f*cking god, that's
> kicking loads of ass, man!").
"To kick ass" has both positive and negative connotations.
If there is first or second person, then it's more likely to be
negative: "If you don't fucking shut up, I'll kick your
fucking ass!". But if it's inanimate, it's very frequently
positive: "The band's new album really kicks ass."
Also note the different Aktionsart: it's <kicks ass>,
not <is kicking ass>. The latter is generally only acceptible
in the literal case of applying one's foot forcefully
onto someone's posterior.
> And, although they are related to one another,
> cursewords may have a different level of vulgarity in
> different languages. In one of the recent English lessons,
> our teacher told us that "sh*t" is considered to be worse
> than "f*ck" in English. In German, it's just the other way
> round.
I would not say that "shit" or "fuck" are particularly
different in effect for me; both fall into the small category
of "four-letter words". My impression, though, is that
"shit" is notably more offensive in English than its
German cognate is. As I think has already been mentioned,
there is only one four-letter word in English that is
so offensive it's taboo even to hear it uttered: c*nt.
This is so strongly felt that the Catholic University
of North Texas decided to change its name simply to
the University of North Texas to avoid the inevitable
embarrassment.
==========================================================================
Thomas Wier "I find it useful to meet my subjects personally,
Dept. of Linguistics because our secret police don't get it right
University of Chicago half the time." -- octogenarian Sheikh Zayed of
1010 E. 59th Street Abu Dhabi, to a French reporter.
Chicago, IL 60637
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Message: 23
Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 23:56:23 -0700
From: Muke Tever <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Slang, curses and vulgarities
Thomas R. Wier <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> Even more interestingly, "(to) kick ass" means
>> something positive in English ("Oh my f*cking god, that's
>> kicking loads of ass, man!").
>
> "To kick ass" has both positive and negative connotations.
> If there is first or second person, then it's more likely to be
> negative: "If you don't fucking shut up, I'll kick your
> fucking ass!". But if it's inanimate, it's very frequently
> positive: "The band's new album really kicks ass."
>
> Also note the different Aktionsart: it's <kicks ass>,
> not <is kicking ass>. The latter is generally only acceptible
> in the literal case of applying one's foot forcefully
> onto someone's posterior.
There is a usage, [something] "is really kicking my ass", but that's
negative (it really threw me the first time I heard it, as it was
being used to mean "I'm stumped by this problem").
Given the short range of examples it seems kicking ass is positive
as long as the ass doesn't explicitly belong to someone, (my ass,
your ass) in which case someone's ass is on the line. :p
*Muke!
--
website: http://frath.net/
LiveJournal: http://kohath.livejournal.com/
deviantArt: http://kohath.deviantart.com/
FrathWiki, a conlang and conculture wiki:
http://wiki.frath.net/
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Message: 24
Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 23:12:18 -0800
From: Elliott Lash <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Verbs Outside of the Slavic
--- Kevin Athey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Thanks! This is useful.
>
> >From: Elliott Lash <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >
> >Old Irish marks perfective and potential aspect by
> >augmenting the verb with a derivational prefix. For
> >most verbs it is "ro-" (or some phonologically
> >conditioned variant). But, for some a range of
> other
> >prefixes are used. Note also, that in the examples
> >this "prefix" is often inserted between the root
> and
> >another prefix which is in Old Irish grammar called
> a
> >"preverb". I'll mark the preverb off from the root
> >with a colon.
>
> Is the preverb historically part of the verb proper,
> or it did it develop
> from a series of bound morphemes?
The preverb is historically a preposition that was
prefixed to a verbal root. This is a common
Indo-European Process. Most prepositions can become
preverbs and modify the meaning of the root in various
ways. Up to four preverbs can be added, in the
examples I gave, only the first preverb was marked off
with a colon, the rest had been smushed together with
the root in a variety of morphophonemic processes.
> <snip examples>
>
> /ro/, /com/, and /ad/? Do you know the etymologies
> of these morphemes? It
> is the etymological typology of the process I'm most
> interested in.
The etymologies of the morphemes are from forms
basically like the Latin morphemes.
*pro > ro "before"
*cum > com "with"
*ad > ad "to"
They are prepositions that have become grammaticalized
in certain constructions with certain verbs.
> Also, is the potential ambiguous with the
> perfective, or is there a
> different set of morphemes for forming the
> potential? All of your examples
> were perfective.
No, all of my examples were perfective since usually
the preterite tense takes on this
perfective/resultative meaning when the augmenting
aspectual prefix is applied. Future and present tenses
take on a potential meaning. I'm unsure about what
happens with subjunctives or conditionals. I'll have
to check into that.
> >And a lot of others prefixes. But mostly it's "ro".
> >Also, some verbs add some other prefix to a
> suppletive
> >root to for the potential or the perfective.
>
> Interesting, but not too surprising. Could you give
> an example or two of
> that with etymological glosses?
There's a verb:
do:beir "he gives, imposes, brings takes"
In the preterite it is do:bert "he gave, etc"
In the "augmented" form (perfective/potential/etc) it
splits:
do:rat "he has given/has imposed"
do:uc "he has brought/taken"
(I'm unsure of the etymologies, but I believe that
<do:rat> is some how composed of 'do' a preverb +
ro/ra the aspectual augment, and then a root <t> which
is pronounced /d/. Probably somehow related to the
Indo European root represented in Latin <do> "I give")
Another one is the root <téit> "he goes"
The potential is: do:dichet "he can go"
This is usually analysed as <do:de-com-wed> with the
root <wed> What happens in Old Irish is that the
aspectual augment <do-cum> in this case, becomes
squished together. The <m> and the <w> combine to give
<w> which is then lost regularly.And so forth and so
on, although of phonological alterations in Old Irish,
especially in verbs. The root <wed> is probably
related to English <wade>. The aspectual augments are
<de> and <com>. <de> is a preposition meaning "of"
There's a few others, but they have "ro" as the
augment.
I hope this helps further.
~ elliott
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Message: 25
Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 01:56:44 -0600
From: Kevin Athey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Slang, curses and vulgarities
>From: Paul Bennett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
>I had heard that Japanese doesn't feature it, and that the closest it
>comes is "a mistake had been made". Ten years of studying languages and
>linguistics later (but not, you'll note, Japanese (at least in any depth))
>has convinced me that the phrase "X does not exist in language Y" is
>always false, or at least always arguable, however.
That is true. Japanese has a tremendous wealth of profanity.
Athey
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