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There are 25 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1. Re: Slang, curses and vulgarities
From: Geoff Horswood <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2. Re: ANNOUNCE: CXS<->IPA converter online
From: "Adrian Morgan (aka Flesh-eating Dragon)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3. Re: Slang, curses and vulgarities
From: Andreas Johansson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4. A new edition of Gzarondan grammar
From: "Adrian Morgan (aka Flesh-eating Dragon)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5. C.U.N.T. (was Slang, curses and vulgarities)
From: caeruleancentaur <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6. Re: Verbs Outside of the Slavic
From: caeruleancentaur <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7. Re: Slang, curses and vulgarities
From: "B. Garcia" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8. Re: USAGE: VOT and the status of /r/
From: Tristan McLeay <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9. Re: /x/ and 'inter-Germanic' (was: Intergermansk)
From: Tristan McLeay <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10. Re: Supposed Celtic semiticisms
From: Tristan McLeay <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11. Re: A new edition of Gzarondan grammar
From: "Adrian Morgan (aka Flesh-eating Dragon)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12. Re: Slang, curses and vulgarities
From: Tristan McLeay <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13. Re: Intergermansk - Pizza packaging text :D
From: Tristan McLeay <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14. Re: USAGE: VOT and the status of /r/
From: "Mark J. Reed" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15. Re: Slang, curses and vulgarities
From: "Mark J. Reed" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16. Re: ANNOUNCE: CXS<->IPA converter online
From: Henrik Theiling <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17. Re: Verbs Outside of the Slavic
From: Elliott Lash <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18. Re: Intergermansk - Three Rings
From: Elliott Lash <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19. Re: Molee's "Saxon English" online
From: Roger Mills <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20. articles
From: # 1 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21. Afroasiatic, Eurasiatic, etc. (was Re: Japanese from Tungus)
From: Jörg Rhiemeier <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22. Re: articles
From: Matt Arriola <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23. Re: Slang, curses and vulgarities
From: Carsten Becker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24. "Proto-Archipelagic"
From: Nicolas Walker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25. Re: Slang, curses and vulgarities
From: caeruleancentaur <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
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Message: 1
Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 03:54:35 -0500
From: Geoff Horswood <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Slang, curses and vulgarities
Gary Shannon wrote:
>
>> Have any of you taken any of your conlangs down the
>> path toward slang, curses, cuss words and vulgarities?
[snip]
>> But what about in conlangs? Can a you curse like a
>> drunken sailor in your conlang? Seems to me that's an
>> important part of any language.
I don't have much in the way of general vulgarity, but the Xinkùtlan are
quite inventive when it comes to curses. Curses (and blessings) are, of
course, a very serious thing in their culture, and most of the phrases and
words they use where we would use expletives are actually warding-off-of-
evil type phrases (I think _apotropaic_ is the technical term). Into this
category fall: Names of gods, phrases like "May the ancestors protect!"
and "May it not come!", nonsense-words used in shamanic rituals (the rough
equivalent of "abracadabra") and the like. But I haven't got there yet.
Vulgarities & derogatory terms:
------------------------------
dzup excrement, sh*t
dzup dzemèkun "worm sh*t" (worse than /dzup/)
nèkod penis
unèkod setèic! "your leprous penis!"[1]
bèqem idiot, jerk
bèrecep male of large animal (eg hippo, elephant)[2]
imàlu female of large animal (eg hippo)[3]
dzèmek worm[4]
[1] used to imply that someone has just told an outrageous bald-
faced lie; a contracted reference to the vulgar oath "may my penis
shrivel/become leprous if I am telling a lie!"
[2], [3] quite normal words when used for an animal, but quite
insulting when used for people. If you want to be _really_ insulting you
would call a person by the term pertaining to the other gender.
[4] worms and other soft-bodied animals which lack any kind of
bones, shell or exoskeleton are considered unclean by the Xinkùtlan. To
liken a person to one of these is to imply they are lacking a vital soul.
Curses:
-------
na robuàzax unàpa! May your house be cleared for farming!
(may IFT.clear_for_crops.PSS of_2sgl(inf).house!)[5]
na rodzil ut qub loi mun! May you never own livestock![6]
(may IFT.possess 2sgl(inf) NEG EMPH livestock!)
na rotlàka uduìa! May your 1st ancestor turn aside (from you)!
(may IFT.turn_aside of_2sgl(inf).first_ancestor!)
na rotlàka ukexìn nai! May all your ancestors turn aside!
(may IFT.turn_aside of_2sgl(inf).ancestor all!)
na roqap kenemòr utuan! May you be attacked by the gorgon!
(may IFT.bite death_eye 2sgl.to!)
na rodoq qèdzik ubecàm! May scorpions infest your liver!
(may IFT.infest scorpion of_2sgl(inf).liver!)
[5] The immediate future tense used here is used in this
construction for maximum effect. The distant future tense is fairly vague,
being used in many instances for speculative happenings, whatever the time
factor involved. Near future tense is a good deal more definite, and thus
more insulting. Immediate future tense is the most powerful;
[6] This is actually a direct borrowing of one of my favourite
Kazakh curses. The Xinkùtlan are not quite so dependent on livestock,
however, and it's not quite as perjorative. Also in use among the
Xinkùtlan is "na rodzil ut qub loi cun!", meaning "May you never own a
fishing boat!"
Other curses which I have worked out in English but not Xinkùtlan include:
-May your ancestor shrine be untended!
-May your shadow evaporate!
-May your speech vanish/be unremembered!
-May your children bless your enemy!
-May worms pour from your mouth! (used to counter another's curse; the
general meaning is "may the words (of your curse) turn to worms in your
mouth")
There are lots of others as well. They are quite inventive when it comes
to curses. :)
Geoff
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Message: 2
Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 22:08:27 +1030
From: "Adrian Morgan (aka Flesh-eating Dragon)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: ANNOUNCE: CXS<->IPA converter online
Henrik Theiling wrote:
> I just finished enhancing my CXS/IPA page a bit by face-lifting, and,
> more importantly, by adding a small script that allows online
> conversion between IPA and CXS (both directions)
Looking at the page ... can we *please* have the comma alternative for
secondary stress back?
I'm going to continue using a comma for secondary stress no matter
what, but it's very disappointing to see it omitted from official
guides.
Adrian.
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Message: 3
Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 13:31:12 +0100
From: Andreas Johansson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Slang, curses and vulgarities
Quoting "Thomas R. Wier" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> Carsten wrote:
> > Interestingly, "f*ck" and "sh*t" have made it into the
> > German language although we have of course own words for
> > these.
>
> Yeah... I remember at a German summerschool I went to, one
> of the participants said she remembered being on a subway
> in Germany, and some guy, though otherwise speaking only
> German, speaking into his cellphone said "Oh, megafuck!"
Among younger Swedes, it's not unusual to hear "fuck", "shit", and "damn" (in
about that order of frequency, IME) used as interjections. The later two have
direct Swedish counterparts in _skit_ [xi:t] and _förbannat_.
Then you get people who consciously use foreign curses as some weird way of
showing off - examples would be _Scheisse_ and Finnish _satana perkele_ (I
don't know the Finnish spelling).
Andreas
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Message: 4
Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 23:23:48 +1030
From: "Adrian Morgan (aka Flesh-eating Dragon)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: A new edition of Gzarondan grammar
I've been doing some extensive revision work on Gzarondan, my
long-established but constantly-mutating conlang.
There are now two documents online, both in RTF format. The first is
a grammatical overview; the second is a brief vocab list and quick
pronunciation guide. A phonetic/phonological overview is still pending
review.
Everything links from here:
http://web.netyp.com/member/dragon/create/language/conlanging.htm
Lots of things are new. I've incorporated the results of a recent
spelling reform, there's some revised vocabulary including new words
for 'yes' and 'no' (namely /'SEkE/ and /'gald@/ which replace the now
obsolete /jUt/ and /[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ of previous editions which I never liked
much), several new prepositions/subordinators, a comprehensive revamp
of relative clauses and some related changes to conjunctions, and
various other changes.
Some elements of previous editions have now been expelled from the
language. For example, I have got rid of the _retropossessive_
which in previous editions was a variant type of possessive for when
the hierarchy of possession is reversed (as in "my god", "my master",
etc). I have also pruned the vocabulary and affix list, so that what's
left are the words I like the most.
Some things you might like to comment on:
* Apparent errors and inconsistencies?
* Grammatical constructs that won't work for more complex sentences
but I haven't yet noticed the flaw? (I hate those :-) )
* The wrong linguistic terminology?
* Comments on clarity?
* Thoughts about the underlying ideas and aesthetics?
Adrian.
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Message: 5
Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 13:30:00 -0000
From: caeruleancentaur <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: C.U.N.T. (was Slang, curses and vulgarities)
--- In conlang@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas R. Wier" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>As I think has already been mentioned, there is only one four-letter
>word in English that is so offensive it's taboo even to hear it
>uttered: c*nt. This is so strongly felt that the Catholic University
>of North Texas decided to change its name simply to the University
>of North Texas to avoid the inevitable embarrassment.
No smiley face accompanied this statement, so I thought I would
clarify. There are only three Catholic institutions of higher
learning in Texas: the Univ. of Dallas, St. Edward's Univ. in Austin
and the Univ. of St. Thomas in Houston. There is no Cath. Univ. of
North Texas. It belongs to the same fictitious category as the Sam
Houston Institute of Technology.
Charlie
http://wiki.frath.net/User:Caeruleancentaur
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Message: 6
Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 13:40:01 -0000
From: caeruleancentaur <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Verbs Outside of the Slavic
--- In conlang@yahoogroups.com, Elliott Lash <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>the rest had been smushed together with the root in a variety of
>morphophonemic processes.
>What happens in Old Irish is that the aspectual augment <do-cum> in
>this case, becomes squished together.
I know the terms syncope, apocope, and aphaeresis, but I had never
come across the terms smush and squish. David Crystal doesn't
include them in his dictionary. Is there any differnce in these two
terms or are they pretty much synonymous? :-)>
Charlie
http://wiki.frath.net/User:Caeruleancentaur
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Message: 7
Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 05:59:42 -0800
From: "B. Garcia" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Slang, curses and vulgarities
On Sun, 30 Jan 2005 00:01:07 -0600, Thomas R. Wier <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>As I think has already been mentioned,
> there is only one four-letter word in English that is
> so offensive it's taboo even to hear it uttered: c*nt.
Although among my friends and I (all gay men) we use and call each
other this all the time.
However, this word is so offensive that even women who don't mind
being called bitches, sluts, whores, and twats will literally start
fights with people who call them that. It's amazing just how strong
this word remains. My guess is the word itself is hard and just
*sounds* vulgar
--
You can turn away from me
but there's nothing that'll keep me here you know
And you'll never be the city guy
Any more than I'll be hosting The Scooby Show
Scooby Show - Belle and Sebastian
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Message: 8
Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 01:26:37 +1100
From: Tristan McLeay <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: USAGE: VOT and the status of /r/
On 30 Jan 2005, at 3.30 am, Andreas Johansson wrote:
> Quoting Tristan McLeay <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
>
>> On 30 Jan 2005, at 12.36 am, Andreas Johansson wrote:
>>> Is this
>>> normal for non-vanilla rice non-rhotic 'lects?
>>
>> I've always pronounced it more like [lo:[EMAIL PROTECTED]:da] or [lo:[EMAIL
>> PROTECTED]:[EMAIL PROTECTED], but
>> the schwa is relatively minor.
>
> Yes, but you're a vanilla ricer.
Sorry, that went over my head (and I'm still missing it).
--
Tristan.
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Message: 9
Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 01:24:33 +1100
From: Tristan McLeay <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: /x/ and 'inter-Germanic' (was: Intergermansk)
On 30 Jan 2005, at 6.13 am, Andreas Johansson wrote:
> I don't see how that's clear at all. How do we determine that a
> phoneme that the
> majority pronounces as [x] is, in fact, /S/? Especially when those who
> don't
> mostly use [s`] or [s\] rather than [S]?
Just on a tangent related to this, I believe Swedish has a phoneme
described as a simultaneous [S] and [x], I think it looks like a cross
between a hook-top h and an eng. Is this sound used to denote this
phoneme?
--
Tristan.
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Message: 10
Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 01:35:32 +1100
From: Tristan McLeay <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Supposed Celtic semiticisms
On 30 Jan 2005, at 5.03 am, Ray Brown wrote:
> A sprachbund might explain the shift to SVO, similae development of
> def.
> article and the development of wide use of periphrastic verbs (English
> to
> quite a degree shares the latter develoment). The mutation system of
> the
> Gaelic langs is IMO different from that of the Brittonic langs (the
> latter
> are far closer to sound changes going on in western Romance).
Now you're being ambiguous (at least as I interpret 'latter'). Not
knowing what a periphrastic verb is, by 'the latter development', do
you mean the last one or the second-last one? (I would only use
'latter' to mean the second of two items, I think; or perhaps the
second-last of more than two, but normally I'd say 'second-last'. But I
have two brothers younger than me, so my younger brother is a different
person to my youngest brother...)
--
Tristan.
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Message: 11
Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 01:13:11 +1030
From: "Adrian Morgan (aka Flesh-eating Dragon)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: A new edition of Gzarondan grammar
I wrote:
> http://web.netyp.com/member/dragon/create/language/conlanging.htm
*** Correction just uploaded ***
There were some gender agreement errors which I've now fixed.
Adrian.
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Message: 12
Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 01:48:50 +1100
From: Tristan McLeay <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Slang, curses and vulgarities
On 30 Jan 2005, at 5.01 pm, Thomas R. Wier wrote:
> Carsten wrote:
>> Interestingly, "f*ck" and "sh*t" have made it into the
>> German language although we have of course own words for
>> these.
>
> Yeah... I remember at a German summerschool I went to, one
> of the participants said she remembered being on a subway
> in Germany, and some guy, though otherwise speaking only
> German, speaking into his cellphone said "Oh, megafuck!"
>
>> Even more interestingly, "(to) kick ass" means
>> something positive in English ("Oh my f*cking god, that's
>> kicking loads of ass, man!").
>
> "To kick ass" has both positive and negative connotations.
> If there is first or second person, then it's more likely to be
> negative: "If you don't fucking shut up, I'll kick your
> fucking ass!". But if it's inanimate, it's very frequently
> positive: "The band's new album really kicks ass."
>
> Also note the different Aktionsart: it's <kicks ass>,
> not <is kicking ass>. The latter is generally only acceptible
> in the literal case of applying one's foot forcefully
> onto someone's posterior.
I'm not sure what Aktionsart is in spite of the many attempts at
explanations I've read, but 'he's kicking ass' is more than perfectly
acceptible when one isn't literally applying one's foot forcefully onto
someone's posterior. It however certainly refers to a person doing
something, so 'that's kicking loads of ass' is wrong; that is either
kickass (or kickarse), or he's kicking some ass...
('Ass' is frequently used in Australia as a mild swear word, or as
parts of mild swearings, but generally references to literal posteriors
would prefer 'arse'; this might influence my interpretation. Some
compounds ('tight arse') I'm only familiar with using 'arse', others
('jack ass') I much prefer to hear using 'ass'. General depends on the
vowel in the first half, but this just might be a personal rather than
cultural aesthetic.)
>
>> And, although they are related to one another,
>> cursewords may have a different level of vulgarity in
>> different languages. In one of the recent English lessons,
>> our teacher told us that "sh*t" is considered to be worse
>> than "f*ck" in English. In German, it's just the other way
>> round.
>
> I would not say that "shit" or "fuck" are particularly
> different in effect for me; both fall into the small category
> of "four-letter words". My impression, though, is that
> "shit" is notably more offensive in English than its
> German cognate is. As I think has already been mentioned,
> there is only one four-letter word in English that is
> so offensive it's taboo even to hear it uttered: c*nt.
> This is so strongly felt that the Catholic University
> of North Texas decided to change its name simply to
> the University of North Texas to avoid the inevitable
> embarrassment.
I cannot believe you're likening 'shit' to 'fuck'. In my use and
experience, it's not much worse than 'stuff'. Obviously it varies in
intensity...
--
Tristan.
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Message: 13
Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 01:58:02 +1100
From: Tristan McLeay <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Intergermansk - Pizza packaging text :D
On 30 Jan 2005, at 10.16 am, Pascal A. Kramm wrote:
> I got the idea while eating pizza (Dr. Oetker Ristorante Speciale):
> How about if I submit my lang to an acid test and see how well it can
> translate a real-world example text? :D
>
> So here is the translation of the text on the pizza packaging, see for
> yourself how much of it you can understand:
This one was much harder to understand, it looks very German (even
though some of it clearly isn't), though I suppose a German-speaker
would disagree :) (Fjern plast, for instance---plast might be plastic,
but fjern I have no idea about.)
> Richlig topte med käs, salami, champinjons och shink on krisp, dinn
> boden.
Your English translation has 'champignons'. I thought that was the
French word for mushrooms; do these differ from mushrooms somehow?
>
> Tillbereiding
> -------------
> 1. Forwarm oven
> Elektro-oven: 220-230°C
> Warmluft: 200°C
> Gas: 4-5
I'm afraid I don't get this one. What's the 4-5? Short for 400--500
degrees F? Gas ovens down under are always marked in the temperature
appropriate for when it was made (i.e. anything after the
mid-to-late-70s or whenever we metricated are in celsius, but if you
have a really ancient thing like my sister's it's in fahrenheit).
--
Tristan.
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Message: 14
Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 09:59:09 -0500
From: "Mark J. Reed" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: USAGE: VOT and the status of /r/
AJ> Yes, but you're a vanilla ricer.
TM> Sorry, that went over my head (and I'm still missing it).
My guess is that it refers to the epenthetic-r insertion. When you say
"vanilla ice cream", it comes out as "vanilla rice cream".
-Marcos
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Message: 15
Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 10:06:03 -0500
From: "Mark J. Reed" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Slang, curses and vulgarities
> On 30 Jan 2005, at 5.01 pm, Thomas R. Wier wrote:
> I cannot believe you're likening 'shit' to 'fuck'. In my use and
> experience, it's not much worse than 'stuff'. Obviously it varies in
> intensity...
They're both words you can't say on public broadcast television in the
US. You could, at least pre-Janet-Jackson-Super-Bowl, get away with
"shit", but not "fuck", on daytime non premium cable/satellite TV.
Until relatively recently (the last decade or so), you couldn't say
"ass" or "piss(ed)" on television here, either, but now they're common.
-Marcos
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Message: 16
Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 16:15:14 +0100
From: Henrik Theiling <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: ANNOUNCE: CXS<->IPA converter online
Hi!
"Adrian Morgan (aka Flesh-eating Dragon)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> Henrik Theiling wrote:
>
> > I just finished enhancing my CXS/IPA page a bit by face-lifting, and,
> > more importantly, by adding a small script that allows online
> > conversion between IPA and CXS (both directions)
>
> Looking at the page ... can we *please* have the comma alternative for
> secondary stress back?
Ok, I checked that the comma it is a free character not otherwise used
by CXS and then made it an acceptable alternative in the CXS->IPA
conversion and documented it as an alternative. The main alternative
is currently still " when IPA->CXS conversion is performed.
Since there is no collision, and , is intuitively clear due to its
similarity with IPA, I think there is problem allowing the
alternative. I found myself using it accidentally, actually.
What do others think?
**Henrik
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Message: 17
Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 08:39:02 -0800
From: Elliott Lash <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Verbs Outside of the Slavic
--- caeruleancentaur <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
> --- In conlang@yahoogroups.com, Elliott Lash
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> >the rest had been smushed together with the root in
> a variety of
> >morphophonemic processes.
>
> >What happens in Old Irish is that the aspectual
> augment <do-cum> in
> >this case, becomes squished together.
>
> I know the terms syncope, apocope, and aphaeresis,
> but I had never
> come across the terms smush and squish. David
> Crystal doesn't
> include them in his dictionary. Is there any
> differnce in these two
> terms or are they pretty much synonymous? :-)>
Pretty much. The process is syncope, I just like using
smush and squish.
do:de-com-wed+ti (-ti "3rd singular present)
do:de-co-wed+ti (mw > w)
do:de-c-wed+t (syncope)
do:decet (assimilation: cw > c, dt > t /d/)
do:deCHET (lenition: c > ch betweeen vowels)
do:dichet "he can go" (random vowel change e > i)
~Elliott
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Message: 18
Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 08:54:20 -0800
From: Elliott Lash <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Intergermansk - Three Rings
--- "Pascal A. Kramm" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Fri, 28 Jan 2005 15:21:10 -0800, Arthaey Angosii
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> >Emaelivpeith Pascal A. Kramm:
> >> >"The North Wind and the Sun" is always useful.
> >>
> >> Where could I find that?
> >
> >I have a link to the text, as well as the
> phrasebook, at:
> >
> >
>
http://arthaey.mine.nu:8080/~arthaey/conlang/translationex.html
I have a version of the North Wind and the Sun in
Silindion which is basically the same, except that the
two winds are discussing knocking a wild cat out of a
tree. Shall I post this version as well?
~Elliott
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Message: 19
Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 11:59:17 -0500
From: Roger Mills <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Molee's "Saxon English" online
Muke Tever wrote:
> And here it is:
> http://wiki.frath.net/Grammar_of_Saxon_English
>
Very interesting and, surprisingly to my view, not half-bad.
On first quick reading, I have two questions for Mr. Molee (or you?)
1. In the Religious Service: Gebet:
In the 4th paragraph, "(thau wilt) qnnem" 'accept' [An.nEm]?
In the 5th paragraph, "annem" 'accept' (imperative) [&n.nEm]?
Is boo-boo? or is there actually vowel-change in the two forms?
2. Purged of French elements, OK...Latinate too? But in the last line of the
Sermon, we have "relijon".
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Message: 20
Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 12:07:07 -0500
From: # 1 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: articles
When I design a new conlang I tend to use articles
But, more I read grammars of other languages, more I realize that a lot of
them don't have articles
Is it something rare in languages?
Are there only families of languages that use them?
It tought it could be only the IE languages but arabic has "el" and basque
has the suffix "-a"
Had "el" and "-a" been borrowed from an IE language?
I'd like to know if there are only some places in the worlds where languages
possess articles and also if the majority does or doesn't use articles
I searched and all languages I found wich have one or two articles are IE or
are situated near of some IE languages
Does someone know something about this?
If I want my conlang to be natural and as much different of everything I
know I should remove articles
- Max
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Message: 21
Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 18:47:53 +0100
From: Jörg Rhiemeier <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Afroasiatic, Eurasiatic, etc. (was Re: Japanese from Tungus)
Hallo!
On Fri, 28 Jan 2005 14:44:57 -0600,
"Thomas R. Wier" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Jörg Rhiemeier <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Ray wrote:
> > > As far as I know, that Japanese and Korean are related is not proven.
> >
> > I agree to that. I am also skeptical about their inclusion into Altaic,
> > which I think has been done mainly for typological reasons. (Greenberg
> > does not include Japanese and Korean into Altaic, but he nevertheless
> > includes them into his Eurasiatic macrofamily.) [...]
> > Indeed. In the case of Celtic and Semitic, we of course know that
> > the Celtic languages are Indo-European and acquired their "Semitic"
> > features secondarily, possibly from an unknown substratum. (And the
> > Semitic languages are known to be Afro-Asiatic, which probably did
> > not display all of the "typically Semitic" features, either.)
>
> Might I point out, however, that finding lautgesetze is not the end-all-
> be-all for hypothesizing genetic relationships. A case in point is
> Afro-Asiatic. Although it is widely recognized as a genetic unit,
Though there are still people around who doubt it. Lyle Campbell,
for instance, considers it not fully proven.
> it is not because of an abundance of cognates or shared lautgesetze, but
> rather primarily the bizarre morphological typology that all (or most all)
> the AA languages share.
You mean the triconsonantal roots thing, I guess. But there also
seem to be similarities in morphology (pronouns, verb affixes, etc.),
though these are not much greater than those between IE, Uralic and
Altaic.
> The time-depth of AA is usually held to
> be considerably older than Indo-European, more something on the order
> of 7-10k YBP. AA is thus more comprable to Eurasiatic than to traditional
> language families like IE.
Yes. I'd say 8,000 to 10,000 years before now, thus indeed comparable
to Eurasiatic.
> Anyways, this does not, of course prove that Japanese and Korean must
> thus be related to Altaic, which is a separate question. But I have to
> disagree with Ray, in that such a relationship cannot be discounted on
> the grounds that most of the similarities are typological. In this
> particular case though, although I am by no means an expert in the
> languages in question, the kind of typology being invoked as evidence
> is so widespread that I would think it constitutes a much weaker parallel
> than in the case of AA.
Yes. Agglutinating SOV languages with converbs aren't that unusual.
> -----------------------------------------
> Joerg also wrote:
> > Personally, I think that there is some evidence for a distant
> > relationship of Indo-European, [etc ...]
> >
> > A. Europic
> > 1. Indo-European
> > 2. Etruscan? [...]
> >
> > The inclusion of Etruscan is uncertain as there is so frustratingly
> > little known of the language, though it looks in many ways similar
> > to IE without actually being IE.
>
> I agree that this is rather odd. In looking through my grammar of
> Etruscan, that by Bonfante and Bonfante, there were no particularly
> obvious similarities other than, say, a nominative-accusative alignment,
> which of course many many unrelated languages have.
Yes. Nominative-accusative alignment means nothing, of course!
And what regards Etruscan morphology, there seem to be different
opinions. Miguel Carrasquer posted some Etruscan morphemes to the
Nostratic mailing list once, and I posted them here on Nov. 17, 2003:
http://listserv.brown.edu/archives/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0311C&L=conlang&P=R12370
The source is, apparently, the book _De Etrusken Spreken_ by
R.S.P. Beekes and L.B. van der Meer. These morphemes look a lot
like an "Eurasiatic" language most closely related to IE. I am
no expert on this and cannot tell whether it makes sense or is
just hogwash.
> > The Nostraticists consider Eurasiatic to be a subbranch of Nostratic;
> > the additional members of Nostratic would be Kartvelian, Sumerian,
> > Elamo-Dravidian (if those two are related at all) and Afro-Asiatic.
> > The inclusion of the latter two seems especially doubtful to me.
>
> Actually, John Colarusso (certainly no Nostraticist) thinks that
> Indo-European and Northwest Caucasian, though not Northeast
> Caucasian, might be related to Indo-European, and he has come up
> with a number of cognates and sound change, including the word
> for "horse". He calls this grouping "Pontic", for its putative
> homeland near the Black Sea.
I have heard of that. However, to me the NWC languages look very
dissimilar to IE. There are perhaps some phonological similarities,
but that reeks of areal or substratum influence.
> Also, someone as conservative as Eric
> Hamp has said that it is possible that Kartvelian is related to IE,
> based on their similar systems of verbal ablaut, and a number of
> shared typological properties like syllable structure.
I have a somewhat easier time relating IE to Kartvelian than to NWC,
and consider Kartvelian to be a strong candidate for the next-closest
kin of Eurasiatic. But again, the phonological similarities might
be due to areal or substratal influence.
Greetings,
Jörg.
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Message: 22
Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 12:39:59 -0500
From: Matt Arriola <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: articles
I don't think so. The Arabic article "al" is cognate with Hebrew "ha",
possibly deriving from an earlier *hal.
On Sun, 30 Jan 2005 12:07:07 -0500, # 1 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Had "el" and "-a" been borrowed from an IE language?
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Message: 23
Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 18:34:08 +0100
From: Carsten Becker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Slang, curses and vulgarities
On Sunday 30 January 2005 02:34, kcasada wrote:
> I've got to disagree. Cursing plays different roles in
> culture, but I for one avoid it as a matter of principle,
> and I seem to recall reading about at least one American
> Indian language that simply doesn't feature it. Krista
>
> >===== Original Message From Carsten Becker
> > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]
<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>> Agreed. Cursing is a
> > part of culture. Most certainly, there's not one single
> > day where you haven't cursed.
Of course one should avoid heavy swearing. As I already said
to Philipp Newton, I counted 'weak' curses such as German
"Mist" (animals' dirt) as well. Sorry if I overgeneralized
my subjective POV!
And there is really a language where there are no offensive
words? I can't believe that there are no words that are at
least slightly offensive. Offending somebody with words is
maybe even more effective than beating them (word?). I
don't think that *always* swallowing anger is that good,
psychologically. One should not explode because of nothing,
that's clear. But concerning myself, at some point, I
cannot keep quiet anymore after having been annoyed by the
same person over and over. I start throwing around insults
for a short time then. Since I try to avoid offending
people, I usually apologize later, being sorry for having
got loud.
Carsten
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Message: 24
Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 12:40:02 -0500
From: Nicolas Walker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: "Proto-Archipelagic"
I here present a revised, annotated version of 'Khaerakh' (Week 4):
LANGUAGE No. 1: Qalak
Proto-Archipelagic - /Ga.eraG/
Ancient Qalak - /G&:raX/
Old Qalak kharakh /Xa:rX/
Middle Qalak khârak /xa:rax/
Modern Qalak hârak /harax/ (1)
1. P.A. * [G]/_# > An. Q. [X] > Mid. Q. [x]
2. P.A. * [G]/#_ > O. Q. [X] > Mid. Q. [x] > Mo. Q [h]
3. P.A. * [a]/_e > An.Q. [&:] > O. Q. [a:] > Mo. Q [a]
4. Mid. Q. [r] (trilled) > Mod. Q. [r] (not trilled)
LANGUAGE No. 2: Feamordh
Proto-Archipelagic - /Ga.eraG/
Early Insular Qalak - /G&:raX/
Late Insular Qalak - /g&:rah/ (2)
Early Feamordh khaera /gaIra/
Middle Feamordh khaera /gaIr@/
Post-Occupational F. gaer /gaIr/
Modern Feamordh cêar /ke:r/
1. P.A. * [G]/_# > E.I.Q. [X] > L.I.Q. (E.F.) [Ø]
2. P.A. * [G]/#_ > L.I.Q. [g] > Mod. F. [k]
3. P.A. * [a]/_e > E.I.Q. [&:] > E.F. [aI] > M.F. [e:] (3)
4. E.F. [a]/_# > Mid.F. [EMAIL PROTECTED] > P.O.F. [Ø]
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
(1) The Mod.Q. form /harx/ was a typo in the original version. The correct
derivation is /harax/.
(3) E.I.Q. [X]/_# > L.I.Q. [h] > E.F. [Ø] instead of E.I.Q. [X]/_# >
L.I.Q. [x] > E.F. [Ø] (Kindly suggested by Rodger Mills)
(3) Rodger also hinted at a problem with [&:] > [aI]. Why?
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
In response to more general questions,
(1) A.Q. does indeed = E.I.Q., as Feamordh is thought to have developed
from a very early dialect of Qalak, rather than Proto-Archipelagic. Thus
A.Q. and E.I.Q. may be collectively termed "Northen Archipelargic".
(2) Stress in P.A. fell on the longest vowel of the word, which in the
case of "khaerakh" we assume to be the first 'a' (latter attested in
Q. 'â' and F. 'ê'.
(3) Furthermore, P.A. was a language of 'particles', meaning that it is
more than likely that "khaerakh" was composed on two distinct morphemes
[Ga] and [eraG] (hence the sylable break [a.e]). This aspect of P.A. will
become clearer as I begin to assign meaning to some 'proto-particles'. For
those who are interested, this leads on to my earlier discussion about the
shift of prepositons to postprepositions (which in P.A. would have been
particles), and their subsequent affixation to the word, provoking the
evolution of cases.
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Message: 25
Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 17:45:06 -0000
From: caeruleancentaur <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Slang, curses and vulgarities
--- In conlang@yahoogroups.com, Tristan McLeay <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>('Ass' is frequently used in Australia as a mild swear word, or as
>parts of mild swearings, but generally references to literal
>posteriors would prefer 'arse'; this might influence my
>interpretation. Some compounds ('tight arse') I'm only familiar with
>using 'arse', others ('jack ass') I much prefer to hear using 'ass'.
>General depends on the vowel in the first half, but this just might
>be a personal rather than cultural aesthetic.)
Might this not be because we are dealing with two different words
here? Ass/arse comes from the PIE root _*ors-_, backside, buttocks.
There are English cognates from the Greek _oura_, tail, found in
scientific terms, e.g., anurans, the frogs. Ass/donkey is from the
Latin _asinus_ which the AHD relates to the Greek _onos_, donkey,
ultimately from the Sumerian _anšu_, ass. The only English
cognate
is onager. I can't imagine what a jack arse might be.
Charlie
http://wiki.frath.net/User:Caeruleancentaur
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