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There are 25 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1. Re: [HUMOR] How many Lojbanist...
From: Gregory Gadow <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2. Re: [CHAT] Mispronouncing Conlang Names
From: andrew <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3. Re: [CHAT] Mispronouncing Conlang Names
From: Geoff Horswood <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4. Re: [CHAT] Mispronouncing Conlang Names
From: Ray Brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5. Re: [CHAT] Mispronouncing Conlang Names
From: "David J. Peterson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6. Re: [CHAT] Mispronouncing Conlang Names
From: Andreas Johansson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7. Re: [CHAT] Mispronouncing Conlang Names
From: Andreas Johansson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8. Re: [CHAT] Mispronouncing Conlang Names
From: Christian Thalmann <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9. Re: Fwd: Nasal Fricatives, Yes or No
From: BP Jonsson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10. Nasalised fricatives
From: Mark Jones <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11. Re: [CHAT] Mispronouncing Conlang Names
From: Dirk Elzinga <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12. Re: [CHAT] Mispronouncing Conlang Names
From: Dirk Elzinga <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13. Re: [CHAT] Mispronouncing Conlang Names
From: Benct Philip Jonsson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14. Re: [CHAT] Mispronouncing Conlang Names
From: Benct Philip Jonsson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15. Re: [CHAT] Mispronouncing Conlang Names
From: Carsten Becker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16. The oddities of the Ferochromon (was: Re: Tricky translations)
From: Carsten Becker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17. Re: [CHAT] Mispronouncing Conlang Names
From: Steven Williams <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18. OT: Californian and Teen Speak
From: "B. Garcia" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19. Re: OT: Californian and Teen Speak
From: "B. Garcia" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20. Re: [CHAT] Mispronouncing Conlang Names
From: Elliott Lash <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21. Re: [CHAT] Mispronouncing Conlang Names
From: Elliott Lash <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22. vocabulary
From: # 1 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23. Re: [CHAT] Mispronouncing Conlang Names
From: Andreas Johansson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24. Re: vocabulary
From: Gary Shannon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25. Re: OT: Californian and Teen Speak
From: Henrik Theiling <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
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Message: 1
Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 18:23:47 -0700
From: Gregory Gadow <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [HUMOR] How many Lojbanist...
> Gregory Gadow wrote:
>
>>I don't know which makes me the bigger geek: that I understood the joke
>>enough to find it funny, or that I found it in the first place.
>>
>>Q: How many Lojbanists does it take to change a broken light bulb?
>>
>>A: Two. One to decide what to change it in to, and one to figure out what
>>kind of bulb emits broken light.
>>
>>
>>Gregg
>
> I understand but is there a reason in it for being lojbanists? I'd have
> understood if it had been "How many guys..."
>
> Is it that in a lojban sentence, "broken light bulb" would be linked from
> the beggining in ((broken light) bulb) instead of beggining from the end
> in
> (broken (light bulb))?
>
> But I don't know what's the point of a lojbanist for the word change
>
> I've just translated it in French for my brother without using "lojbanist"
> and it works!
>
>
> Sorry for asking: I know that a question asked after a joke ruin it.. :-|
By way of answer, here is a direct quote from the Wikipedia, where I found
the joke (from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lojban)
-- quote --
Something of the flavor of Lojban (and Loglan) can be imparted by this
lightbulb joke:
Q: How many Lojbanists does it take to change a broken light bulb?
A: Two: one to decide what to change it into, and one to figure out what
kind of bulb emits broken light.
This joke makes use of two features of the language; first, the language
attempts to eliminate polysemy; that is, having a phrase with more than
one meaning. So while the English word "change" can mean "to transform
into a different state", or "to replace", or even "small-denomination
currency", Lojban has different words for each. In particular, the use of
a brivla such as the word for "change" ("binxo") implies that all of its
predicate places exist, so there must be something for it to change into.
Another feature of the language is that it has no grammatical ambiguities
that appear in English phrases like "big dog house", which can mean either
a big house for dogs or a house of big dogs. In Lojban, unless you clearly
specify otherwise with cmavo, such modifiers always group left-to-right,
so "big dog house" is a house of big dogs, and a "broken light bulb" is a
bulb that emits broken light (you can achieve the desired meaning with the
appropriate cmavo or by creating a new word, in effect saying "broken
lightbulb").
-- end quote --
And for those who enjoy hypertext encyclopedias like I do, Wikipedia has
an entry on lightbulb jokes at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lightbulb_joke
Gregory Gadow
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Message: 2
Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 16:30:30 +1200
From: andrew <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [CHAT] Mispronouncing Conlang Names
On Thursday 14 April 2005 04:54, Roger Mills wrote:
> Brithenig was ['[EMAIL PROTECTED] at first, then [brI'Tenig] with a strong
> tendency to devoice that final /g/; now the horse's mouth (apologies
> to Andrew) tells us it's [...'nig]...but why? wouldn't it have
> derived from [bri'tan.nicus] or some such???
>
Looks in mirror, checks teeth, reasonably even, all there, slight gaps,
no snaggle teeth. Momentarily wonders about the articulation of horses
before dismissing the thought....
Early romance languages put the stress on the penultimate syllable,
which means it has shifted from [bri'tan.nicus] to [britan'nicus]. The
stress has remained there in Brithenig even after the skateboarders
came and knocked all the vowels off the end of words [britan'nic] - the
vandals!
- andrew.
--
Andrew Smith -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] --
http://hobbit.griffler.co.nz/homepage.html
catar-le 'alat de`ol
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Message: 3
Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 01:56:12 -0400
From: Geoff Horswood <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [CHAT] Mispronouncing Conlang Names
On Wed, 13 Apr 2005 13:01:04 +0200, Henrik Theiling <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
>Hi!
>
>"David J. Peterson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>>...
>> a lot of conlang names, I've noticed. Here's a short list (and
>> feel free to add) in alphabetical order:
>
>Do you also have a nice mispronunciation of Qthyn|gai? :-)
>
I'm probably way out with this one. /q@'TIn.|\|\.gaj/ Sorry.
What about Xinkutlan?
Noygwexaal? (if the phonology wasn't posted too recently)
>> -amman îar:
>>...
>> most saliently pronounced by as ['A.mAn i.'Ar], where the last
>>...
>
>I did worse: [?a'mam ?i'jar]...
/'&m.m&n i'jar/ With an embarrassing English-style /&/ /a/ conflation. :P
>> -Brithenig: ...
>
>Embarrasingly: ['[EMAIL PROTECTED]
I think I got this one right
>
>> -Kangathyagon: ...
I kept wanting to insert a /b/ in it, before I worked out that the thorn
was /T/. Then I conflated the 2 together: /kaN.ba'Tja:.gon/ ;)
>> -Miapimoquitch: ...
>
>Same: no pronunciation before finding out the right way to say it.
I'm still not sure I have this right! /mi.ap'im.o.kwItS/?
>> -Rokbeigalmki: ...
>
>No problem at all.
Really? I see this one and the order of letters in it just jumbles up in
my head. I still want to say /rO.kI.bE'gal.mi:/ I seem to do this a lot
with words over a certain size. I wonder why?
>> -Teonaht: ...
>
>Similar to yours: ['te.o.nat]. Forgive me.
/'te.o.naht/
Geoff
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Message: 4
Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 07:13:50 +0100
From: Ray Brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [CHAT] Mispronouncing Conlang Names
On Wednesday, April 13, 2005, at 10:11 , Benct Philip Jonsson wrote:
> David J. Peterson skrev:
[snip]
>> (1) Sohlob: Seen it a lot, and, again, because I like that coda [h],
>> I tend to pronounce it ['soh.lob]--pretty much just like it looks.
>
> Yes pretty much, tho it's actually [sQ'KQb_0].
..with _hl_ used as in Zulu & Xhosa orthography :)
==========================================
On Wednesday, April 13, 2005, at 05:54 , Roger Mills wrote:
> Amusing thread. Most of the (mis)pronunciations have occurred to me at one
> time or another.
Some are almost inevitable. If one puts a circumflex above _i_ it is going
to suggest that thing is a vowel - indeed, to those of us who know some
Welsh (or Tolkien), it suggests a _long_ vowel :)
> Accustomed to pronouncing -h in Indonesian, I tend to do the same when it
> occurs in ...VhC...; so
> Sohlob > ['soh.lob]
> Teonaht > ['teonaht] until I heard Sally pronounce it in her long-ago
> radio
> interview.......
Reasonable IMO - tho |hl| = [K] does have natlang precedent (see above);
but AFAIK |ht| = [T] has no such precedent and is peculiar to Teonaht
[not meant as a criticism, only as an observation].
> Brithenig was ['[EMAIL PROTECTED] at first, then [brI'Tenig] with a strong
> tendency
> to devoice that final /g/; now the horse's mouth (apologies to Andrew)
> tells
> us it's [...'nig]...but why?
Presumably for the same reason that French _brittanique_ has slight
emphasis on the final syllable, I guess - i.e. analogy. When the Latin
endings got dropped, the stress would normally fall on the final syllable.
> wouldn't it have derived from [bri'tan.nicus]
> or some such???
Must be _some such_, as _th_ /T/ will have derived from -tt-. I had
assumed it was, like the modern Welsh & Breton words, from *Brittonico- ,
but the _e_ in the middle is odd. I guess it is from a supposed hybrid of
Latin Britannic- and Old British Brittonic-, namely Brittan(n)ic-
One of the names that got mispronounced was the now discarded abbreviation
for 'briefscript', i.e. BrSc :)
I discarded it as (a) it's awkward to type, (b) it was mispronounced in
several different ways, and (c) someone quite rightly took me to task for
using an abbreviation.
The language is now called Bax (or more properly ~bax, where ~ denotes a
proper name). Some may recall that in Bax it is actually pronounced
/pi'aCi/. I had toyed with the idea of giving it a 'natlang' form of the
name, such as *Piashi. But I have decided against that.
The name will be written Bax in English, French, German etc etc. It will
be pronounced /b&ks/ in English, /baks/ in French and, I guess, /ba:ks/ in
German etc, etc. Thus, you write the name as Bax and pronounce it
according to your L1; only in Bax itself is it written ~bax and pronounced
/pi'aCi/
Bax - the name you won't mispronounce :-)
PS - the server at my ISP seems to be denying access to the Bax section at
the moment - I'll try to sort it out as soon as possible :=(
Ray
===============================================
http://home.freeuk.com/ray.brown
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
===============================================
Anything is possible in the fabulous Celtic twilight,
which is not so much a twilight of the gods
as of the reason." [JRRT, "English and Welsh" ]
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Message: 5
Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 23:48:09 -0700
From: "David J. Peterson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [CHAT] Mispronouncing Conlang Names
Responding to several:
Roger wrote:
<<
Then there are the first three words of David P's current sig---
"A male love..."
>>
There's actually a story behind that. Since my new e-mail
program allows me to switch signatures so easily (and to
randomly select them), I decided to translate the sig I had
for Zhyler into Kamakawi. I had most of the vocabulary
I needed, except "forgive". After deciding to make it a
morphologically simplex root, I needed a form. Every so
often I decide to make a pun or a joke when creating a
lexeme, so I decided to make "forgive" /love/ (pronounced
['lO.vE], not ['lVv]), simply because the romanized version
looks like the English word "love".
So then I started translating. First, I needed the particle
that says the subject is new: /a/. Then, since the whole
thing is in a kind of future tense, next would come the
future tense "marker", which is just the word for "later
on", which is /male/. Then, since Kamakawi is VSO, the
verb comes next, and that's.../love/. That's when I
realized what I'd done. I was about to change it, but
for precisely this reason:
Roger wrote:
<< it's somehow appropriate to the polymorphously
perverse Mr. Morrison>>
I decided to keep it. :)
Henrik wrote:
<<
Do you also have a nice mispronunciation of Qthyn|gai? :-)
>>
Indeed I do: [D&t kjuw leNgwIdZ] ;)
Dirk wrote:
<<
While Tepa (['t1Ba]) may have been simpler to pronounce, too many
people were led astray by the romanization and pronounced it
['t_hEpa], which really grated on me.
>>
Ohhh... Yeah. I mean, yes, of course. That's *exactly* how I've
always pronounced "Tepa". Truly!
Muke wrote:
<<
The ones that stick most in my mind, unable to be removed, are
probably /m{Ngl/ [Maggel], ABCD-an [Ebisedian], and Celine
Dion [Silindion].
>>
HA!!!
Geoff wrote:
<<
What about Xinkutlan?
...
Noygwexaal?
>>
[Sin.kut.'lAn]? [noj.gwE.'xAl]?
-David
*******************************************************************
"A male love inevivi i'ala'i oku i ue pokulu'ume o heki a."
"No eternal reward will forgive us now for wasting the dawn."
-Jim Morrison
http://dedalvs.free.fr/
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Message: 6
Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 09:30:34 +0200
From: Andreas Johansson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [CHAT] Mispronouncing Conlang Names
Quoting Muke Tever <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> David J. Peterson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > I recently posted Barry Garcia's translation of the Sheli poem
> > into Ayhan on my site, and I noticed, after pasting his link in,
> > that I'd been incorrectly spelling the language as "Ahyan".
> > Why? Because that's actually how I'd been *pronouncing* it
> > (in my head) all this time. And, indeed, I actually mispronounce
> > a lot of conlang names, I've noticed.
>
> The ones that stick most in my mind, unable to be removed, are
> probably /m{Ngl/ [Maggel], ABCD-an [Ebisedian], and Celine
> Dion [Silindion].
Aak. I'll never be able to think of Eliott's masterpiece in the same way again.
:(
;)
I long thought of Teonaht as [,te:o'naxt]. Needless to say, I thought of Tepa as
[te:pa].
Andreas
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Message: 7
Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 09:41:13 +0200
From: Andreas Johansson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [CHAT] Mispronouncing Conlang Names
Quoting Geoff Horswood <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> On Wed, 13 Apr 2005 13:01:04 +0200, Henrik Theiling <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
>
> >Hi!
> >
> >"David J. Peterson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> >>...
> >> a lot of conlang names, I've noticed. Here's a short list (and
> >> feel free to add) in alphabetical order:
> >
> >Do you also have a nice mispronunciation of Qthyn|gai? :-)
> >
> I'm probably way out with this one. /q@'TIn.|\|\.gaj/ Sorry.
>
> What about Xinkutlan?
>
> Noygwexaal? (if the phonology wasn't posted too recently)
I've been thinking of those as [Sin'kUt.lan] and [noj.gwe'Sa:l].
> >> -amman îar:
> >>...
> >> most saliently pronounced by as ['A.mAn i.'Ar], where the last
> >>...
> >
> >I did worse: [?a'mam ?i'jar]...
>
> /'&m.m&n i'jar/ With an embarrassing English-style /&/ /a/ conflation. :P
[a'man ja:r], boringly.
> >> -Brithenig: ...
> >
> >Embarrasingly: ['[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> I think I got this one right
[br`Ith.E'NIg]
> >
> >> -Kangathyagon: ...
>
> I kept wanting to insert a /b/ in it, before I worked out that the thorn
> was /T/. Then I conflated the 2 together: /kaN.ba'Tja:.gon/ ;)
[kaN.ga.Tja'gOn]
> >> -Miapimoquitch: ...
> >
> >Same: no pronunciation before finding out the right way to say it.
>
> I'm still not sure I have this right! /mi.ap'im.o.kwItS/?
[,mi:.a.pi.mo'kwitS]
> >> -Rokbeigalmki: ...
> >
> >No problem at all.
>
> Really? I see this one and the order of letters in it just jumbles up in
> my head. I still want to say /rO.kI.bE'gal.mi:/ I seem to do this a lot
> with words over a certain size. I wonder why?
[,r`Ok.bEj'galm.ki]
> >> -Teonaht: ...
> >
> >Similar to yours: ['te.o.nat]. Forgive me.
>
> /'te.o.naht/
[,te:.o'naxt]
Andreas
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Message: 8
Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 08:26:14 -0000
From: Christian Thalmann <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [CHAT] Mispronouncing Conlang Names
> > >Do you also have a nice mispronunciation of Qthyn|gai? :-)
/qTyn g<aj/
> > >> -Miapimoquitch: ...
> > >
> > >Same: no pronunciation before finding out the right way to say it.
> >
> > I'm still not sure I have this right! /mi.ap'im.o.kwItS/?
I parse this as one of those languages with Spanish
spelling, thus /,mi.a.,pi.mo.'kitS/. The |tch| is a bit
strange, though.
Let's hear some manglings of Obrenaj, Oro Mpaa and Joeva. :)
-- Christian Thalmann
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Message: 9
Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 11:55:34 +0200
From: BP Jonsson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Fwd: Nasal Fricatives, Yes or No
Citerar JS Bangs <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Date: Apr 12, 2005 11:09 PM
> Subject: Nasal Fricatives, Yes or No
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>
>
> Some peeps were curious about nasal frics, some say no, but I can
> pronounce them..
>
> I gave them /snin/-> /s~i~/ as an example. I said, hey, if the French
> vowels can do it, why not consonants? any ideas on if an natlangs
> played with this...
Icelandic. _Sólin skín fegurt_ is [sowlIz~ skiv~ fEGYrt_h].
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Message: 10
Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 11:40:43 +0000
From: Mark Jones <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Nasalised fricatives
Hi,
nasalised fricatives are a tricky point, phonetically and phonologically (by
which I don't just mean their abstract feature specification: [+cons]
[+cont] [+nasal] is easy enough to write, but in some treatments that could
be just a plain nasal).
Nasalised fricatives are hard to produce. Venting the airflow through the
nasal cavity reduces the oral pressure required to create turbulence. You
can do it, but just see how much more breath force you need for a good [s],
and how sooner you run out of breath producing a sustained nasalised
fricative than its non-nasalised counterpart.
At the same time, nasalisation adds little or nothing acoustically to
voiceless fricatives, in which the sound is generated forward of the oral
constriction, with at very best weak acoustic coupling to the posterior
cavities. You might get a weak fricative, but that is down to reduction in
oral pressure and could be achieved some other way.
Nasalisation can add more acoustically to voiced fricatives, as the voicing
source at the larynx obviously excites the nasal cavity too.
BUT aerodynamically, voiced fricatives are hard enough, as the airflow
required for turbulence is lessened by driving the vocal folds, and in
voiced nasalised fricatives you now have two other systems reducing the
pressure drop across the oral constriction required for the fricative.
Result - very often an approximant.
See the discussion in the indispensable Ladefoged and Maddieson, Sounds of
the World's Languages, Blackwells, 1996: 132-134.
On the subject of nasal (rather than nasalised) fricatives, its arguably
impossible to control sphinctering of the soft palate to the extent that you
can control the generation of frication at the velum itself. Snoring can be
an ingressive nasal trill or fricative, but the mouth is usually open too,
of course. Voiceless nasals are sometimes termed 'nareal fricatives' as the
real sound generation is at the nostrils.
Mark
Mark J. Jones
Department of Linguistics
University of Cambridge
http://kiri.ling.cam.ac.uk/mark
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Message: 11
Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 08:25:58 -0600
From: Dirk Elzinga <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [CHAT] Mispronouncing Conlang Names
On 4/13/05, Geoff Horswood <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >> -Miapimoquitch: ...
> >
> >Same: no pronunciation before finding out the right way to say it.
>
> I'm still not sure I have this right! /mi.ap'im.o.kwItS/?
Primary stress on the penult; secondary stress the second syllable before that:
[mi"&pi'moUkwItS]
See how easy that is? :-)
Dirk
--
Watch the reply-to!
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Message: 12
Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 08:29:00 -0600
From: Dirk Elzinga <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [CHAT] Mispronouncing Conlang Names
On 4/14/05, Christian Thalmann <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > >> -Miapimoquitch: ...
> > > >
> > > >Same: no pronunciation before finding out the right way to say it.
> > >
> > > I'm still not sure I have this right! /mi.ap'im.o.kwItS/?
>
> I parse this as one of those languages with Spanish
> spelling, thus /,mi.a.,pi.mo.'kitS/. The |tch| is a bit
> strange, though.
It's an Anglicization of a Southern Paiute original. The <qu> is
pronounced in English fashion (from a Southern Paiute labiovelar
voiceless stop); there's nothing Spanish about it. The <tch> is to
ensure a lax vowel in the final syllable.
Interesting that you stress all of the syllables which are stressless!
Dirk
--
Watch the reply-to!
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Message: 13
Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 19:06:29 +0200
From: Benct Philip Jonsson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [CHAT] Mispronouncing Conlang Names
My very Swedish readings:
> -amman îar:
,Am:An'i:Ar
> -Ayhan:
Aj'hAn
> -Brithenig:
'bri:TE,nig
> -Fith:
fi:T
> -Kangathyagon:
,kANgATjA'gon
> -Miapimoquitch:
,mi:a,pjA:mu'kvits\
> -Minyeva:
,min'je:vA
> -Rokbeigalmki:
,rojbe'kAlmki
> -Teonaht:
,te:o'naxt or ,te:u'naxt
> Zhyler, since I created it. That will always be
> ['Zi.lr=] in my head, rather than the correct, [ZY.'ler].
'z\y:l3\r
I note that I and Andreas largely agree, which
confirms my intuitions about "rules" for FOREIGN
words in Swedish! :)
--
/BP 8^)>
--
Benct Philip Jonsson -- melroch at melroch dot se
Solitudinem faciunt pacem appellant!
(Tacitus)
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Message: 14
Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 19:19:08 +0200
From: Benct Philip Jonsson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [CHAT] Mispronouncing Conlang Names
Ray Brown skrev:
> On Wednesday, April 13, 2005, at 10:11 , Benct Philip Jonsson wrote:
>
>> David J. Peterson skrev:
>
> [snip]
>
>>> (1) Sohlob: Seen it a lot, and, again, because I like that coda [h],
>>> I tend to pronounce it ['soh.lob]--pretty much just like it looks.
>>
>>
>> Yes pretty much, tho it's actually [sQ'KQb_0].
>
>
> ..with _hl_ used as in Zulu & Xhosa orthography :)
And in Icelandic, tho only word-initially.
The *sound* also occurs in words like
_kallt_ 'cold'. The _ll_ isn't a graph for
/K/, since _ll_ in other contexts is /t_l/,
or perhaps /tK/.
> Bax
['pjA:s\i] for me, since I unlearnt ['bA:s\A]!
Other langs by other people:
> What about Xinkutlan?
,xiNk8'tlA:n
> Noygwexaal?
,nojgve'xA:l
> Qthyn|gai
kyN'tAj or "Henriks Q-sprĺk" ['henriks 'k8wsprok]
--
/BP 8^)>
--
Benct Philip Jonsson -- melroch at melroch dot se
Solitudinem faciunt pacem appellant!
(Tacitus)
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Message: 15
Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 20:35:36 +0200
From: Carsten Becker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [CHAT] Mispronouncing Conlang Names
On Wednesday 13 April 2005 08:43 CEST, David J. Peterson
wrote:
> -amman îar:
["amAn jA:6]
> -Brithenig:
Not sure between ["[EMAIL PROTECTED] and [br\i"TEnIk]
> -Fith:
[fIT]
> -Kangathyagon:
Wasn't it Khangaţyagon? In case it is so, it's of course
["XANga"Tja:gOn], though I needed to look twice when I
first saw that word.
> -Miapimoquitch:
[mia"pimokITS], maybe?
> -Minyeva:
[mIn"jeva]
> -Rokbeigalmki:
This one still puzzles me. I'd say ["ROkbAI)"gAlmki], though
I thought of it up to now rather as ["ROkbAI)"g(l)ami] when
reading sloppily.
> -Teonaht:
["teonA:t]
> Zhyler
[ZAi)l6]
I'm a big bit wrong, I know. :P
Carsten
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Message: 16
Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 20:35:58 +0200
From: Carsten Becker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: The oddities of the Ferochromon (was: Re: Tricky translations)
On Wednesday 13 April 2005 21:40 CEST, H. S. Teoh wrote:
> On Wed, Apr 13, 2005 at 02:39:40PM +0100, Simon Clarkstone
wrote:
> > On 1/17/05, H. S. Teoh <[EMAIL PROTECTED]
<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>> wrote:
> > > The Ebisédi live in the Ferochromon. The Ferochromon
> > > is a radically different universe from
> > > ours---different rules of physics, completely
> > > different structure, and completely different
> > > phenomena.
Sorry to say that, Teoh, but YOU'RE A FREAK! It's indeed all
very strange and weird but very imaginative, but my brain
has not enough windings to make up a picutre of what you're
talking about. I didn't read *everything* because of that.
Have you got some illustrations or so available? Or could
you draw some? Or would it be too difficult because of the
multi-dimensionality? Are the realms some kind of parallel
universes, because there are three of them? Why are the
Realms only "somewhat" 3-dimesional? I can't imagine a
3.5-dimensional space actually. 4 dimensions are already
difficult enough (what would 5 dimensional space be like
then?!). And, what is "force" if not kg*m/s^2? Besides, is
"Ferochromon" derived from "ferrum" (iron) and "chrome"?
Since the Realms consist of lattices that need to be pushed
forward or whatever be penetrated, can I imagine this
basically like a liquid? Like walking through water, just
without updrift but instead something similar to
airpressure that keeps you on the floor (or whatever
corresponds to "ground" in your world)?
Yours, totally confused,
Carsten
--
Edatamanon le matahanarŕ benenoea eityabo ena Bahis Siruena,
15-A8-58-1-3-1B-1B ena Curan Tertanyan.
» http://www.beckerscarsten.de/?conlang=ayeri
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Message: 17
Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 21:06:47 +0200
From: Steven Williams <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [CHAT] Mispronouncing Conlang Names
Okay, here're my egregious mispronunciations of your
conlangs:
— amman îar [,a.mn=.'jA:r\]
— Ayhan (never encountered this name before, but I'd
probably pronounce it as ['ai.han])
— Brithenig ['[EMAIL PROTECTED],nIg]
— Fith [fIT]
— Kangathyagon [,k&[EMAIL PROTECTED]'th&g.jAn]
— Miapimoquitch ['mIp.sOU.,kwItS] (how embarrassing!)
— Tepa ('tE.p@)
— Minyeva (mIn.'jeI.v@)
— Rokbeigalmki [,r\OU.bl=.'[EMAIL PROTECTED] (eek!)
— Teonaht ['teI.jo.,naxt] (until I learned the proper
pronunciation, that is)
— Zhyler ['Zy.lr=]
— Ayeri [ai.'jE.r\i]
Feel free to totally ruin /Gi-nŕin/ at your leisure :).
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Message: 18
Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 12:14:44 -0700
From: "B. Garcia" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: OT: Californian and Teen Speak
This is both on topic and off topic. Apologies.
First, I came across a page on one of the PBS websites that discussed
American dialects, and there was one page in particular of interest to
me - Californian English. What i read was interesting, as it
characterizes the speech of people I know from both the southern and
northern parts of the state (and even my speech, to some extent). This
accent is often regarded as the "surfer" or "valley girl" accent, but
i've heard it in everyone from average folk to neo-hippies.
The main feature it seems is fronting of certain vowels, especially
/u/ and /o/ (forgve my messy IPA... the page doesn't give the IPA and
i'm no expert, so I don't know the proper IPA for these
pronunciations). "Normal" pronunciation for me is the left,
Californian is the right:
boat - /bowt/ > /beuwt/
loan - /lown/ > /leuwn/
but - /bVt/ > /bEt/
cut - /kVt/ > /kEt/
black - /bl&k/ > /blAk/
bet - /bEt/ > /b&t/
bit - /bIt/ > /bEt/
There's also a tendency to make the voice creaky as well: baaaad -
/bA::_kd/ (_k = creaky)
Exaggerated, a glottal stop often pops into the way I pronounce the words.
Another feature is the use of "like" and phrases such as "i'm like",
and "He's all"
Right now, a lot of this is still among people who are in their mid
20's to teens, but I actually have a friend who is close to 48 who
sounds exactly like what i've described. It also creeps into my speech
when i'm away from my job. I've actually noticed it's become more
prominent. Funniest thing was a guy in one of my classes who had a
very strong "surfer" accent who would pronounce Spanish that way.
there's more here:
http://www.pbs.org/speak/seatosea/americanvarieties/californian/
All of this brings me to the second part - How are teenagers perceived
to talk in your conworlds (if you have them?) Are there accents like
the "surfer" (in terms of how it is perceived). Are there features
adults complain about that are common among teens there (other than
the obvious use of slang)?
--
They'll have a big parade for every day that you stay clean
But when the trumpets fade, you'll go under like a submarine
And you won't see it coming, no you won't see it coming
You could have it made up there in San Rafael
But baby I'm afraid i'll never see you well
because i've seen the tally
you're just going through the motions, baby
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Message: 19
Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 12:16:31 -0700
From: "B. Garcia" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: OT: Californian and Teen Speak
On 4/14/05, B. Garcia <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> boat - /bowt/ > /beuwt/
> loan - /lown/ > /leuwn/
These two should be more like /bEuwt/ and /lEuwn/
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Message: 20
Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 12:39:20 -0700
From: Elliott Lash <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [CHAT] Mispronouncing Conlang Names
hahaha,
yes, ABCD-an is a favorite mispronunciation of mine.
And worry not, your pronunciation of Silindion
is...unfortunately fairly accurate.
The Neste pronounce their language /sIlI'ndjon/. I
however tend to pronounce it /sI'lindion/, somewhat
like you I suppose.
~Elliott
--- Muke Tever <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> David J. Peterson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > I recently posted Barry Garcia's translation of
> the Sheli poem
> > into Ayhan on my site, and I noticed, after
> pasting his link in,
> > that I'd been incorrectly spelling the language as
> "Ahyan".
> > Why? Because that's actually how I'd been
> *pronouncing* it
> > (in my head) all this time. And, indeed, I
> actually mispronounce
> > a lot of conlang names, I've noticed.
>
> The ones that stick most in my mind, unable to be
> removed, are
> probably /m{Ngl/ [Maggel], ABCD-an [Ebisedian], and
> Celine
> Dion [Silindion].
>
>
> *Muke!
> --
> website: http://frath.net/
> LiveJournal: http://kohath.livejournal.com/
> deviantArt: http://kohath.deviantart.com/
>
> FrathWiki, a conlang and conculture wiki:
> http://wiki.frath.net/
>
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Message: 21
Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 12:47:28 -0700
From: Elliott Lash <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [CHAT] Mispronouncing Conlang Names
--- Andreas Johansson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Quoting Muke Tever <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
>
> > David J. Peterson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > I recently posted Barry Garcia's translation of
> the Sheli poem
> > > into Ayhan on my site, and I noticed, after
> pasting his link in,
> > > that I'd been incorrectly spelling the language
> as "Ahyan".
> > > Why? Because that's actually how I'd been
> *pronouncing* it
> > > (in my head) all this time. And, indeed, I
> actually mispronounce
> > > a lot of conlang names, I've noticed.
> >
> > The ones that stick most in my mind, unable to be
> removed, are
> > probably /m{Ngl/ [Maggel], ABCD-an [Ebisedian],
> and Celine
> > Dion [Silindion].
>
> Aak. I'll never be able to think of Eliott's
> masterpiece in the same way again.
> :(
>
>
> ;)
Worry not sir, as I told Muke, I too pronounce it
unfortunately close to Celine Dion. The Neste speakers
have a slightly different stress for the word, so it
doesn't technically sound like that.
~Elliott
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Message: 22
Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 15:49:04 -0400
From: # 1 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: vocabulary
while creating a vocabulary for a new conlang, I encountered an
interogation.
any verbal root can have 4 uses (but the 4 may not all exist):
Alone it will be an impersonnal verb, when it agrees with the arguments it's
a descriptive/stative verb, when it has the marker "de" and agrees with an
argument it's an active verb, and when it has the prefix "ai-" it's a noun.
That way, I can derive the colors in verbs with the stative being "be red"
and the active being "become red" or "make red" depending of the
transitivity
Also, I derived the verbs "die" and "kill" from the same root, "die" being
the stative and "kill" the active
But when I had to say what'd be the name related to that root, I realise it
would mean both "death" and "murder"
Are there natlangs in which "murder" and "death" are the same word?
Prabably.. but if so, do these languages make difference between "kill" and
"die" even if they don't between "murder" and "death"?
I find it strange to distinct a concept in the verbs but not in their names,
is it?
- Max
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Message: 23
Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 21:53:37 +0200
From: Andreas Johansson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [CHAT] Mispronouncing Conlang Names
Quoting Elliott Lash <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> --- Andreas Johansson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Quoting Muke Tever <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> >
> > > David J. Peterson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > > I recently posted Barry Garcia's translation of
> > the Sheli poem
> > > > into Ayhan on my site, and I noticed, after
> > pasting his link in,
> > > > that I'd been incorrectly spelling the language
> > as "Ahyan".
> > > > Why? Because that's actually how I'd been
> > *pronouncing* it
> > > > (in my head) all this time. And, indeed, I
> > actually mispronounce
> > > > a lot of conlang names, I've noticed.
> > >
> > > The ones that stick most in my mind, unable to be
> > removed, are
> > > probably /m{Ngl/ [Maggel], ABCD-an [Ebisedian],
> > and Celine
> > > Dion [Silindion].
> >
> > Aak. I'll never be able to think of Eliott's
> > masterpiece in the same way again.
> > :(
> >
> >
> > ;)
>
> Worry not sir, as I told Muke, I too pronounce it
> unfortunately close to Celine Dion. The Neste speakers
> have a slightly different stress for the word, so it
> doesn't technically sound like that.
No, I didn't mean I need change my pronunciation. I mean I'll think of Celine
Dion every time I see the name Silindion from now on. Hadn't made the
connection before.
Oh, and every body mispronounce these for me:
Tairezazh
Kesheáras
Altaii
Meghean
U-Rakh U-Nayargiz-ung
Telendlest
Searixina
Kalini Sapak
Steienzh
Andreas
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Message: 24
Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 13:06:18 -0700
From: Gary Shannon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: vocabulary
--- # 1 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
<snip>
> But when I had to say what'd be the name related to
> that root, I realise it
> would mean both "death" and "murder"
>
> Are there natlangs in which "murder" and "death" are
> the same word?
>
> Prabably.. but if so, do these languages make
> difference between "kill" and
> "die" even if they don't between "murder" and
> "death"?
What about "slaughter" as in killing an animal for
food, or "exterminate" as in killing a pestiferous
insect, or "execute" as in institutional killing of a
criminal?
--gary
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Message: 25
Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 22:34:19 +0200
From: Henrik Theiling <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: OT: Californian and Teen Speak
Hi!
"B. Garcia" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>...
> There's also a tendency to make the voice creaky as well: baaaad -
> /bA::_kd/ (_k = creaky)
>...
It gave me the _kreaks, errrm, creeps when an American teenager here
in Germany did this on the train just a few seats away from where I
was. Funny enough, she was amoung a group of four people, but it was
only her who did the _kreak. All of them did the 'i was like' stuff.
>...
> Funniest thing was a guy in one of my classes who had a very strong
> "surfer" accent who would pronounce Spanish that way.
HAHA! :-)
> All of this brings me to the second part - How are teenagers perceived
> to talk in your conworlds (if you have them?) Are there accents like
> the "surfer" (in terms of how it is perceived).
A did some accent stuff for Tyl Sjok. Especially grammar changes
occur with teenage language. It's not elaborated, but one thing was
that teenagers tend to use more disambiguation particles, which, in
the eyes of older people, breaks the purity of the ideal, even
philosophical ambiguity of the language.
> Are there features adults complain about that are common among teens
> there (other than the obvious use of slang)?
Yes, in Tyl Sjok, adults think teens don't talk 'properly'. :-)
**Henrik
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