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There are 9 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1. Re: OT: Californian and Teen Speak
From: Kris Kowal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2. Re: vocabulary
From: Gary Shannon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3. Re: OT: Californian and Teen Speak
From: "B. Garcia" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4. Re: OT: Californian and Teen Speak
From: "B. Garcia" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5. Re: [CHAT] Mispronouncing Conlang Names
From: "B. Garcia" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6. Re: [CHAT] Mispronouncing Conlang Names
From: Paul Bennett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7. Re: vocabulary
From: Gregory Gadow <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8. Re: OT: Californian and Teen Speak
From: "Mark J. Reed" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9. Re: Fwd: Nasal Fricatives, Yes or No
From: "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
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Message: 1
Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 13:51:11 -0700
From: Kris Kowal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: OT: Californian and Teen Speak
On 4/14/05, Henrik Theiling <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> "B. Garcia" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> > Are there features adults complain about that are common among teens
> > there (other than the obvious use of slang)?
>
> Yes, in Tyl Sjok, adults think teens don't talk 'properly'. :-)
Seems to be the pattern. A friend of mine tells me that his
grandmother is still upset that young(er) people have come to use
"patronise" to mean "to be a patron for" instead of its older meaning
"to condescend to". The new meaning, as I understand it, came with
the orthogonal application of "ise" to words like "hospitalise",
"traumatise", and the like.
Kris.
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Message: 2
Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 13:54:16 -0700
From: Gary Shannon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: vocabulary
--- Gary Shannon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> --- # 1 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> <snip>
> > But when I had to say what'd be the name related
> to
> > that root, I realise it
> > would mean both "death" and "murder"
> >
> > Are there natlangs in which "murder" and "death"
> are
> > the same word?
> >
> > Prabably.. but if so, do these languages make
> > difference between "kill" and
> > "die" even if they don't between "murder" and
> > "death"?
>
> What about "slaughter" as in killing an animal for
> food, or "exterminate" as in killing a pestiferous
> insect, or "execute" as in institutional killing of
> a
> criminal?
>
Or "sacrifice" as in killing as part of a religious
ritual, or "suicide" as in killing one's self, or
"Martyrdom" as in allowing one's self to be killed in
service of a higher good.
> --gary
>
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Message: 3
Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 14:13:08 -0700
From: "B. Garcia" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: OT: Californian and Teen Speak
On 4/14/05, Henrik Theiling <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> It gave me the _kreaks, errrm, creeps when an American teenager here
> in Germany did this on the train just a few seats away from where I
> was. Funny enough, she was amoung a group of four people, but it was
> only her who did the _kreak. All of them did the 'i was like' stuff.
The creak is a typical thing to immitate when you're doing the "whiny
Californian teenager".
> >...
> > Funniest thing was a guy in one of my classes who had a very strong
> > "surfer" accent who would pronounce Spanish that way.
>
> HAHA! :-)
Oh it was hilarious and painful at the same time.
> A did some accent stuff for Tyl Sjok. Especially grammar changes
> occur with teenage language. It's not elaborated, but one thing was
> that teenagers tend to use more disambiguation particles, which, in
> the eyes of older people, breaks the purity of the ideal, even
> philosophical ambiguity of the language.
I haven't gotten far enough in Ayhan to determine what teens there
would do exactly, but one thing that they'd most likely drop the
animacy/inanimacy - natural/unnaturalness affixes from the verb.
--
They'll have a big parade for every day that you stay clean
But when the trumpets fade, you'll go under like a submarine
And you won't see it coming, no you won't see it coming
You could have it made up there in San Rafael
But baby I'm afraid i'll never see you well
because i've seen the tally
you're just going through the motions, baby
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Message: 4
Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 14:23:06 -0700
From: "B. Garcia" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: OT: Californian and Teen Speak
Note: My phonetic analysis may be off, because i'm not that great with
phonetics, so if any of the linguists here who know well the valley
girl/surfer accent in California understand it better, I'd love you
forever if you could post a better analysis :).
--
They'll have a big parade for every day that you stay clean
But when the trumpets fade, you'll go under like a submarine
And you won't see it coming, no you won't see it coming
You could have it made up there in San Rafael
But baby I'm afraid i'll never see you well
because i've seen the tally
you're just going through the motions, baby
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Message: 5
Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 14:29:32 -0700
From: "B. Garcia" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [CHAT] Mispronouncing Conlang Names
On 4/14/05, Andreas Johansson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Oh, and every body mispronounce these for me:
>
> Tairezazh
/'tejrEz&Z/
> Kesheáras
/kESe'Ar&s/
> Altaii
/'?Altaj:/
> Meghean
/'[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ - I've actually seen someone spell the name "Meagan' this
way
> U-Rakh U-Nayargiz-ung
/'?ur&k u'najargiz ?uN/
> Telendlest
/t@'lEndlEst/
> Searixina
/sIrIk'sin@/
> Kalini Sapak
/[EMAIL PROTECTED] s&p&k/
> Steienzh
/'stejEndZ/
--
They'll have a big parade for every day that you stay clean
But when the trumpets fade, you'll go under like a submarine
And you won't see it coming, no you won't see it coming
You could have it made up there in San Rafael
But baby I'm afraid i'll never see you well
because i've seen the tally
you're just going through the motions, baby
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Message: 6
Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 17:58:07 -0400
From: Paul Bennett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [CHAT] Mispronouncing Conlang Names
----- Original Message -----
From: Andreas Johansson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Oh, and every body mispronounce these for me:
>
> Tairezazh
I kept misreading it as /tAjr\i:Z/ until I concentrated and got /[EMAIL
PROTECTED]/
> Kesheáras
/[EMAIL PROTECTED]@)[EMAIL PROTECTED]/
> Altaii
/Vltaj:/
> Meghean
I keep reading this as /[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ even though I know that's wrong.
> U-Rakh U-Nayargiz-ung
/u r\6x u nVjAgIz UN/
> Telendlest
I keep getting /[EMAIL PROTECTED]/
> Searixina
/si@)r\iSina/
> Kalini Sapak
/[EMAIL PROTECTED] sapak/
> Steienzh
/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/
Paul
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Message: 7
Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 14:56:10 -0700
From: Gregory Gadow <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: vocabulary
> --- Gary Shannon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> --- # 1 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> <snip>
>> > But when I had to say what'd be the name related
>> to
>> > that root, I realise it
>> > would mean both "death" and "murder"
>> >
>> > Are there natlangs in which "murder" and "death"
>> are
>> > the same word?
>> >
>> > Prabably.. but if so, do these languages make
>> > difference between "kill" and
>> > "die" even if they don't between "murder" and
>> > "death"?
>>
>> What about "slaughter" as in killing an animal for
>> food, or "exterminate" as in killing a pestiferous
>> insect, or "execute" as in institutional killing of
>> a criminal?
>
> Or "sacrifice" as in killing as part of a religious
> ritual, or "suicide" as in killing one's self, or
> "Martyrdom" as in allowing one's self to be killed in
> service of a higher good.
These, I think, are the result of English's rich past. (Information from
various sources, including Merriam Webster Online, http://www.m-w.com)
"Kill" is from Old English 'cyllan', which is probably related to the word
'cwellan', "to quell." That, in turn, seems to come from Old High German
"quellen", "to torture." "Murder" comes ultimately from the same
Indo-European root that gave us Latin 'morts' and 'mortuus' and Greek
"brotos." At some point in the history of English, the German word came
to have a fairly neutral connotation while the German word by way of Latin
came to have a connotation of violence. If "murder" entered English by way
of the Romans (which is likely, give that it is much closer to Latin
roots), one can see where a conquered people might find such a
connotation.
"Slaughter" comes from Old Norse 'slAtra', basically meaning to kill large
numbers without regard (as on a battlefield.) Given that, for most of
English history, only the wealthy regularly ate meat, and given that
enough had to be killed to feed a household that might include several
hundreds of soldiers, servants, guests, ambassadors and courtiers, the
connection between a battlefield term and dressing flesh to eat appears
strong.
"Exterminate" is purely Latin in origin, coming from 'ex terminus',
"beyond the boundary." If I remember correctly, it was originally used by
the Legions as a way of dealing with foreign invaders: those who were 'ex
termini' were to be 'exterminare.'
"Execute" comes from Latin via Middle French and basically means "to
fulfil an order." It from this sense that we have chief executives and the
executor of a will. Executing a person originally meant executing an order
to put the person to death.
"Sacrifice" is from Latin and means "to make sacred." Properly, a
sacrifice is anything that is given over to the gods for their use; while
it might mean killing something (or someone), it is a perfectly accurate
way to describe money given to a religious organization or time spent
working on a mission.
"Suicide" is from Latin and means "to kill ones self." It is similar to
words like 'fratricide' and 'regicide.'
"Martyrdom" is from Greek. 'Martyr' come from the word meaning "to
witness"; 'dom' is the suffix meaning "to be in a state of." It entered
English by way of religion. Because of the understanding of the word by
early Christians, "martyrdom" has long meant "the state of having been
killed for the sake of one's religious beliefs."
Gregory Gadow
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Message: 8
Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 18:26:20 -0400
From: "Mark J. Reed" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: OT: Californian and Teen Speak
I can well imagine "surfer Spanish" since I've heard a lot of "Dixie
Spanish" (Peggy Hill on "King of the Hill" being a good exemplar of the
latter). ['bwei:.nou:s 'di:.jas [EMAIL PROTECTED]'[EMAIL PROTECTED]@
'k_hou:.mouwei'sta: ju'ste:.jEd]
et sim.
[This message contained attachments]
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Message: 9
Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 23:22:49 GMT
From: "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Fwd: Nasal Fricatives, Yes or No
Icelandic, cool, thanks
I saw Marks post on them too, good info, basically saying, they are rough, but
can be done..:)
>Citerar JS Bangs <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
>> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
>> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> Date: Apr 12, 2005 11:09 PM
>> Subject: Nasal Fricatives, Yes or No
>> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>
>>
>>
>> Some peeps were curious about nasal frics, some say no, but I can
>> pronounce them..
>>
>> I gave them /snin/-> /s~i~/ as an example. I said, hey, if the >French
>> vowels can do it, why not consonants? any ideas on if an natlangs
>> played with this...
>Icelandic. _Sólin skín fegurt_ is [sowlIz~ skiv~ fEGYrt_h].
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