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There are 25 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1. Re: Brithenig misunderstood
From: damien perrotin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2. PHPDictionary
From: Aaron Morse <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3. 1. YAESR
From: Roger Mills <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4. HELP: keyboard weirdness
From: Roger Mills <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5. Re: CHAT Patagonian Welsh (was: Brithenig misunderstood)
From: Roger Mills <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6. Re: Examples wanted: How do you say this?
From: Joseph Bridwell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7. Re: HELP: keyboard weirdness
From: Joseph Bridwell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8. Re: CHAT Patagonian Welsh (was: Brithenig misunderstood)
From: Joseph Bridwell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9. Re: 1. YAESR
From: Joseph Bridwell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10. Re: OT: Re: Wheels (Was: Clockwise without clocks)
From: Rodlox R <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11. Re: OT: Re: Wheels (Was: Clockwise without clocks)
From: Roger Mills <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12. Re: OT: Californian and Teen Speak
From: Keith Gaughan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13. Re: OT: Californian and Teen Speak
From: Geoff Horswood <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14. Re: Examples wanted: How do you say this?
From: Ray Brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15. Re: Picto & Dil
From: Ray Brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16. Re: Examples wanted: How do you say this?
From: Geoff Horswood <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17. Re: OT: Re: Wheels (Was: Clockwise without clocks)
From: Wesley Parish <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18. Re: OT: Re: Wheels (Was: Clockwise without clocks)
From: "B. Garcia" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19. Re: past tense imperative
From: Isaac Penzev <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20. Re: Examples wanted: How do you say this?
From: caeruleancentaur <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21. (in)perfective imperatives (was: past tense imperative)
From: "J. 'Mach' Wust" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22. 3 translations of the four questions for Passover.
From: "Joseph a.k.a Buck" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23. Re: Examples wanted: How do you say this?
From: "Ph. D." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24. Re: Sayings of the Wise #1
From: Carsten Becker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25. Re: Examples wanted: How do you say this?
From: Carsten Becker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 1
Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2005 18:39:55 +0200
From: damien perrotin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Brithenig misunderstood
Skrivet gant Ray Brown:
>> just as an aside, the titles of the post-roman leaders before or just
>> after Hengist's revolt were celtic (vortigern, riothamus)
>
>
> But not Arctorius (Arthur) or Ambrosius (Emrys) :)
>
> Nor AFAIK do we know Vortigern's full name. It is possible that
> Vortigernus was his cognomen & that he had a Roman praenomen & nomen.
> There were no contemporary accounts of this period, and by the time they
> were written about any nascent Britto-Romance had disappeared.
>
Well, vortigern is a title, meaning "supreme chief" and so is Riothamus
"high king". Riothamus' name was latin "ambrosius aurelianus" and it is
not impossible that Vortigern's was too, but those guy did choose
brittish titles even though the language was unlikely to be very
prestigious at the time. So one can safely assume they did use it
(alongside with Latin of course)
>
> OK - I do not want to get into an argument this.
don't worry, I'm not into britto-roman nationalism :-)
> I guess I overstated the
> position a bit. But when one considers that Lingua Romanica took root,
> flourished and has survived till modern times (Romanian) in Dacia, which
> was occupied at a later date than Britain, I still think it likely after
> about 4 centuries that Lingua Romanica had taken root in urban Britain.
It certainly was used, like French in Senegal or Togo. The determining
factor in whether local languages are displaced is not as much the
length of the occupation as the level of disruption of the local
society. Britain retained its tribal structure with most of the
territory ruled, in fact, by local chieftains, while the (much more
sophisticated) Dacian society was highly disrupted by the conquest (and
presumably the destruction of the local nobility) and by the immigration
of soldiers from all over the Empire (in Britain, most legionaries were
recruited locally)
> But whether it had or not, that is the position from which Brithenig
> starts, which is what is relevant in this context.
>
> Ray
I do agree with that.
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Message: 2
Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2005 12:46:19 -0400
From: Aaron Morse <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: PHPDictionary
Myself and my team just released PHPDictionary 3.0 -- the perfect dictionary
management tool for conlangers. It is written in PHP and MySQL so to run it
you will need either:
A.) A webhost that supports PHP -- a good FREE one is http://100webhost.com
B.) A program such as AppServ installed on your computer (if you want to run
it on your computer, not the web)
To quote from the release statement:
As the administrator of the PHPDictionary project, I am proud to announce
> the release of PHPDictionary 3.0b. The script is being released as a beta
> because of lack of testing after the installation script was written.
> However, the script was fully tested prior to the creation of that script.
> There are a few features that will not work, which is because they have not
> been coded yet.
>
> PHPDictionary has taken a gigantic leap since its original release. Not
> only is it now programmed by a team as opposed to an individual, the entire
> layout and organization of the code has been restructured. Among the new
> features are: a Multi-User Login (MUL) system, a word generator, a
> phrasebook, a text tool, and an all-new user interface.
>
> The MUL is a powerful system capable of anything anyone might wish for. It
> has a 4 level user tier -- the top level, administrator, can add and delete
> users and dictionaries. The level below that can work on a dictionary, and
> add users to that dictionary but cannot delete users or add new dictionarys.
> The level below that can work on a dictionary, but cannot effect user
> membership at all. The level below that is a guest, someone who is not
> logged in and cannot administrate a dictionary. Because of this MUL,
> multiple different dictionaries can created and managed by different levels
> of members, with only one installation of the script.
>
> The Word Generator will randomly generate words from a phonology you
> create through the Phonology Creator, which is stored inside the database.
> It will then allow you to automatically add one of the generated words to
> your dictionary. This is a whole new leap in dictionary management. Instead
> of creating a word, or generating a word, and then having to copy it into
> your dictionary, PHPDictionary does all the work for you!
>
> You may now also manage a phrasebook, and add texts. A Babel-Text tool
> allows you to add a Babel Text without having to type up the English
> version. You may also add custom texts.
>
> The search tool is more and more powerful -- now searching by English
> word/phrase/text, Conlang word/phrase/text, word type, and word root. You
> may also sort words in any way -- By root and then English, or by root and
> then Conlang, type, etc.
>
> A GUI, created by one of the team members utilizing a Javascript menu,
> makes it easy to navigate and understand. Optional free registration is
> included, if you wish to let the team know you are using the script.
>
> This script is the ultimate in online (or offline) dictionary management.
> If you have problems, free support is available by e-mailing aaron at
> artlangs dot com, posting in the ArtLangs.com <http://ArtLangs.com>forums, or
> IMing
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] on MSN, artlangs on YIM, or conlang331 on AIM.
>
> Download the script from http://sf.net/projects/phpdictionary
>
[This message contained attachments]
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Message: 3
Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2005 13:06:59 -0400
From: Roger Mills <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: 1. YAESR
_Yet Another English Spelling Reform_ ...and no, at my age I`m not proposing
one.
However, today`s Spanish-lang. Ideolengua has a couple posts concerning
YAESR by one Rollo Reid, called _lojikcl Inglix_, and a link to
wyrdplay.org. Those who are interested in or amused by ESR`s might take a
look, if you haven`t already.
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Message: 4
Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2005 13:14:10 -0400
From: Roger Mills <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: HELP: keyboard weirdness
2. My QWERTY keyboard is going crazy. The tilde-grave key now produces | #;
the slash-Q key now produces é É; the square bracket keys produce ^^ ¸¨
respectively. The < is ', the > is . The uppercase 2,3,6 produce 2"
3/ 6?. (Perhaps all will be well in other's view of this email, who knows?)
This first started last night when I was doing some html and kept getting
'b. and 'éb. for opening and closing (bold) tags. I deleted a big patch and
retyped, and things behaved normally again. Tried that with this msg. but it
didn`t work....WHAT IS GOING ON??????
-----------------------
The above was written as part of the YAESR msg. I cut/pasted it here; but as
I write now, everything is back to normal-- < >, / ? , the u/c number keys,
et al., all work properly.
Once again, WHAT IS GOING ON???? If it happens again, how do I make it stop
misbehaving?
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Message: 5
Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2005 13:40:34 -0400
From: Roger Mills <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: CHAT Patagonian Welsh (was: Brithenig misunderstood)
I replied directly to Pablo, thanks to gmail and my inadvertence...
Just to mention that there was an article on this Welsh area of Argentina in
(IIRC) the NY Times (Sunday, Travel section) within the past few weeks. It
did indeed mention that the language was still in use, though many of the
families had acquired Spanish surnames.
More Welsh toponymy (I assume)-- Puerto _Madryn_ (?)
Chubut is probably a native word; claro, no es espańol.
BTW, I have an old US-published Welsh hymnal, picked up some years back at a
tag-sale. (The seller's grandparents had run a Welsh-lang. publishing co. in
Chicago; they also published Swedenborgian stuff too-- very curious.) Nice
tunes even if I don't know what they're saying....
==================================================
Ray Brown wrote:
> On Saturday, April 16, 2005, at 02:42 , Pablo Flores wrote:
>
> > On 4/16/05, Joe <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >> Ray Brown wrote:
> >>> ..and also, sadly, the real Welsh who settled Patagonia which is now
> >>> part
> >>> of Argentina.
> >>
> >> I don't know about all of them. I'm pretty sure there's still a
> >> minority of Welsh-speakers in the Chubut Valley.
> >
> > It seems there's a Welsh-speaking community in Trevelin, Chubut.
> > According to <http://www.patagonia.com.ar/chubut/trevelin/infogral.php>
> > (in Spanish) even the younger generations speak Welsh and practice
> > their old customs and religion.
>
> Great - you two have made my day :)
>
> Trevelin? Obviously the Argentinian way of spelling Welsh 'Trefelin'
> "Milltown" (<-- tre "town" + melin "mill") - tho Chubut ain't Welsh ;)
>
> > I'm sure there are other speakers in the rest of the province.
>
> I hope so, a report I heard on the TV a few years back was depressing -
> but maybe there's more recently been a revival.
>
> O bydded i'r hen iaith barhau!
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Message: 6
Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2005 17:46:13 -0000
From: Joseph Bridwell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Examples wanted: How do you say this?
> Anyone, in conlangs or natlangs.
> "With X being/doing A, Y did B."
> I just need to see how you work this construction.
> Anyone, in conlangs or natlangs.
> "With X being/doing A, Y did B."
>Use whatever nouns or verbs you like; I just need to see how you
work this construction.
Palu:
Depends on whether "with" indicates simultaneousness or dependence.
Simultaneous
n'kika yotso ti X ha palali ti Y ha heyapli
(at-time one both X <sj> speak-past-he and Y <sj> eat-past-he)
Simultaneous and dependent
n'kika yotso X palapli hu k'husho Y ha heyapli
(at-time one X speak-past-he by-event Y <sj> eat-past-he)
Notes:
"n'kika yotso" can be dropped if context supplies the
simultaneousness.
"hu" effectively turns the preceding phrase into a modified
Dis:
In increasing level of dependency:
X satís'p Y sotórg'ks
(X he-speaks-during Y he-eat-complete)
X satěs Y sotórg'ks
(X he-speakingly Y he-eat-complete)
X satěs'l Y sotórg'ks
(X he-speaking-by Y eat-complete)
Notes:
"sotórg" instead of "satórg" as the agent of the second verb is not
the same as that of the first.
The accent grave indicates low tone, which makes "satěs" a modifier.
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Message: 7
Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2005 17:56:46 -0000
From: Joseph Bridwell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: HELP: keyboard weirdness
> 2. My QWERTY keyboard is going crazy. The tilde-grave key now
My initial guess is that you've switched keyboard layouts for one or
more applications. I know this happened occasionally in IRC for me
with Win as I have enabled keyboards for Icelandic, Spanish, German &
Czech. Even the UK English kbd layout is diff.
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Message: 8
Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2005 18:05:04 -0000
From: Joseph Bridwell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: CHAT Patagonian Welsh (was: Brithenig misunderstood)
> Chubut is probably a native word; claro, no es espańol.
It's a corruption of Tehuelche "chupat" meaning either "transparent"
or "winding", referring to the primary river there.
http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/3hweb/welsh.htm
http://www.nonesuchinfo.info/features/tschiffely/tschiffely.htm
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Message: 9
Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2005 18:10:17 -0000
From: Joseph Bridwell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: 1. YAESR
> YAESR by one Rollo Reid, called _lojikcl Inglix_, and a link to
> wyrdplay.org. Those who are interested in or amused by ESR`s might
This is spill-over from saundspel, where one can watch him, George
Geiger and others verbally slug it out.
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Message: 10
Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2005 20:30:32 +0000
From: Rodlox R <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: OT: Re: Wheels (Was: Clockwise without clocks)
>From: Wesley Parish <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Reply-To: Constructed Languages List <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>Subject: Re: OT: Re: Wheels (Was: Clockwise without clocks)
>Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2005 20:52:56 +1200
> > to be fair, it takes a lot of wood to prepare the limestone needed to
> > build Mayan pyramids.
> >
> > (different type or quality of wood?)
>
>Fill me in on the details?
I'll do my best.
> How is limestone prepared? In what way? I
>thought it was anaturally-occuring stone, and all necessary was to
>hammer/carve it into shape.
from what I understand - from teh documentary I'd watched - wood was burned
under a pot where the limestone was held...when it was pastey (or
something), the limestone was placed atop and on the sides of the large
stones used for construction...and then another large stone was placed atop
that.
I think it was a glue of sorts. I think.
>
>
>To build the ramps needed to get the stone up to the top, that would
>require a
>fair amount of wood - and forethought.
oh yeah.
>
>Wesley Parish
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Message: 11
Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2005 17:02:19 -0400
From: Roger Mills <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: OT: Re: Wheels (Was: Clockwise without clocks)
Rodlox wrote:
> >From: Wesley Parish <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > to be fair, it takes a lot of wood to prepare the limestone needed
> > > to
> > > build Mayan pyramids.
> > >
> > > (different type or quality of wood?)
> >
> >Fill me in on the details?
>
> I'll do my best.
>
> > How is limestone prepared? In what way? I
> >thought it was anaturally-occuring stone, and all necessary was to
> >hammer/carve it into shape.
>
> from what I understand - from teh documentary I'd watched - wood was
> burned
> under a pot where the limestone was held...when it was pastey (or
> something), the limestone was placed atop and on the sides of the large
> stones used for construction...and then another large stone was placed
> atop
> that.
>
> I think it was a glue of sorts. I think.
Unless I'm mistaken, that sounds like the primitive way of obtaining lime
for mortar. Were the Mayan pyramids mortared??? I'd be surprised if they
were. (In pre-industrial Indonesia they burned coral to produce lime, but
small quantities. And isn't burning limestone basically the way cement is
made even today? Cement factories certainly produce a ton of smoke....)
> >
> >
> >To build the ramps needed to get the stone up to the top, that would
> >require a
> >fair amount of wood - and forethought.
>
I wonder. Certainly the tropics don't lack for wood, but it seems to me that
wooden ramps/scaffolding mightn't be strong enough to support the weight of
the building stones being dragged up... In Egypt, good wood would have been
in short supply, no? So I suspect their ramps must have been built of stone,
and when the pyramid was finished, the stones could be used for some other
project. Just guessing, however. (But as we all know, they had Alien
technology to hoist those stones...:-)))))
OTOH I do recall old photos of skyscraper projects in the 50s/60s in
China/Hong Kong that were using scaffolding apparently made of bamboo; not
anymore, I'm sure
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Message: 12
Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2005 23:48:39 +0100
From: Keith Gaughan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: OT: Californian and Teen Speak
Paul Bennett wrote:
> On Fri, 15 Apr 2005 23:15:36 -0400, # 1 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
>
>> Just a question for my personal knowledge:
>>
>> How many dialects of English can y'all "percieve" as English speakers?
>>
>> Personnally I can only distinct 4 of them: North of the US, South of the
>> US,
>> England, and Australia
>
>
> Here's a non-exhaustive list of the subtypes of English I can usually
> distinguish from hearing a sentence or two:
>
> Scottish
> Glaswegian
> Educated and/or Edinburgh Scottish
> Northern English (non-uvular R)
> Northern English (uvular R)
> Geordie
> Scouse
> Brummie
> Mancunian
> Rural British
> Southwest British
> Home Counties
> Indian Subcontinent British
> Urban London and Parts East
> London Upper Class
> London Non-upper Class
> General Educated British
> General British
> Black British
And don't forget about the other wee chunk of land floating off the west
coast of Europe in the same archipelago? And Wales?
K.
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Message: 13
Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 01:49:01 -0400
From: Geoff Horswood <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: OT: Californian and Teen Speak
On Fri, 15 Apr 2005 23:15:36 -0400, # 1 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
>B. Garcia wrote:
>
>>Here's a link to an NPR interview with Penelope Eckert, professor of
>>Linguistics at Stanford who has been studying the speech of teenagers
>>around
>>the Bay Area of northern California. She gives better
>>explanations of what I'm talking about than I do :)
>>
>>http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=1693373
>>
>>
>
>Just a question for my personal knowledge:
>
>How many dialects of English can y'all "percieve" as English speakers?
>
>Personnally I can only distinct 4 of them: North of the US, South of the
US,
>England, and Australia
>
>But there are probably more of them: NW and NE can probably be distincted
>like SW and SE and maybe Center and there are probably more than one in
>Australia and England and some others in all the english speaking
countries.
>
>What is it for y'all?
>
>- Max
Don't forget Southern and Eastern African Englishes, and certainly to my UK
ears the Celtic nations have their own accents and some of their own
words. How distinct do you need to be to be a "dialect" rather than a
regional accent? So you might well add Scots, Welsh and Irish.
I'd probably agree with you about grouping together NZ and Aussie English,
though.
Oh yes, don't forget the Caribbean!
Geoff
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Message: 14
Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 06:50:17 +0100
From: Ray Brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Examples wanted: How do you say this?
On Sunday, April 17, 2005, at 06:53 , Mike Ellis wrote:
> Anyone, in conlangs or natlangs.
>
> "With X being/doing A, Y did B."
>
> Use whatever nouns or verbs you like; I just need to see how you work this
> construction.
The first part is an 'absolute' clause.
Natlangs
LATIN
In Latin, the X is ablative case & 'doing' is a present participle also in
the ablative case to agree with X. If A is is a noun or pronoun it will
usually be in accusative case, as it is usually the direct object of
'doing', but some Latin verbs did govern other case.
Example:
eo imperium tenente, euentum timeo
he-ABL power-ACC hold-PRES.PART-ABL
With him holding power, I fear the outcome
There was, however, no present participle for "to be" in Classical Latin,
so the two nouns were just put in the ablative, for example:
Caesare duce, nihil timebimus.
Caesar-ABL leader-ABL
With Caesar being leader, we shall fear nothing.
ANCIENT GREEK
..had no ablative case and normally used the genitive in this construction;
also, unlike Latin, Greek did have a present participle of "to be"
autou to kratos ekhontos, to apoban phoboumai
he-GEN the power-ACC hold-PRES.PART-GEN
With him holding (the) power, I fear the outcome
Kaisaros he:gemonos ontos, ouden phobe:sometha
Caesar-GEN leader-GEN be-PRES.PART-GEN
With impersonal verbs, however, the accusative case was used. Here is an
example from the historian Thoukydides (Thucydides):
ekson ouk e:theele:sate
be-possible-PRES.PART-ACC
[even] with it being possible, you would not do [it]
Ray
===============================================
http://home.freeuk.com/ray.brown
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
===============================================
Anything is possible in the fabulous Celtic twilight,
which is not so much a twilight of the gods
as of the reason." [JRRT, "English and Welsh" ]
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Message: 15
Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 06:51:27 +0100
From: Ray Brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Picto & Dil
On Saturday, April 16, 2005, at 07:38 , Doug Dee wrote:
> In a message dated 4/16/2005 11:54:34 AM Eastern Daylight Time, [EMAIL
> PROTECTED]
> DE
> writes:
>
>> Sounds a cool language. But Dil was only developed and did not spread as
>> a
>> spoken language? (Question is self-answering).
>
> The only place I'd heard of Dil (before you mentioned it) was in Libert's
> book, so apparently Dil, like many other modifications of Volapuk, never
> got very
> far.
Hardly surprising IMO. From the samples you gave in your mail of 16th
April, it looks like a bit of fairly simple tinkering with Volapük. When
the Volapük movement fell apart, it was because of dissatisfaction with
the structure of the language; Dil doesn't seem to be significantly
different.
>> How does the tradition come that all conlangers give info on the first
>> numbers? 1-9?
>
> Someone whose name escapes me writes to this list now & then asking
> everyone
> to supply the numbers 1-10 in their conlangs.
As Muke reminded us, it's Janko Gorenc
Unfortunately, I still haven't decided on them in Piashi/Bax (or whatever
it will be called), but I did discover a diary from 1953, and it seems
that a week or so before my 14th birthday, I had written out some notes
about a creation of mine called 'Voldapeko' (Does the name remind you of
anything!) and it included the numbers 1 to 10:
ayn, du, tri, tar, pen, hekţ, hep, ok, nuv, dek (Well, I was still only
13)
Yes - I have sent them to Janko :)
> That's what prompted me to
> include the numbers in my list of Dil facts. (1-9 happened to be in a
> handy
> table, so I quoted those. For the record, ten is "unez", and twenty is
> "tunez", &
> presumably this pattern runs through ninety.)
In other words, just add the plural ending to the units - just like
Schleyer's Volapük! Arie de Jong's reformed Volapük is better than Dil in
this matter. He introduced the word _deg_ for 10, and the other tens are
formed in the same way as Esperanto (and modern Welsh :) by combining the
words for 2, 3, 4 etc with 10, thus:
teldeg = 20, kildeg = 30, foldeg = 40 etc.
Ray
===============================================
http://home.freeuk.com/ray.brown
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
===============================================
Anything is possible in the fabulous Celtic twilight,
which is not so much a twilight of the gods
as of the reason." [JRRT, "English and Welsh" ]
________________________________________________________________________
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Message: 16
Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 02:26:43 -0400
From: Geoff Horswood <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Examples wanted: How do you say this?
On Sun, 17 Apr 2005 01:53:21 -0400, Mike Ellis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>Anyone, in conlangs or natlangs.
>
>"With X being/doing A, Y did B."
>
>Use whatever nouns or verbs you like; I just need to see how you work this
>construction.
>
>M
Xinkůtlan:
sepňtli X, al elmučn Y
se.potli X, al el.mučn Y
G.sing X, and IPT.dream Y
X singing, Y dreamed (less dependent)
sepňtli Xuz, al elmučn Y
se.potli X.uz, al el.mučn Y
G.sing X.from, and IPT.dream Y
X singing, Y dreamed (more dependent)
G - Gerundive
IPT - Immediate Past Tense
Noygwexaal:
(less dependent --> more dependent)
dan X cwaaniin, Y anaarilaar
dan X cwaan.iin, Y anaar.ilaar
with X sing.prs_PRT_2ev, Y dream.obl_3sgl(w)_2ev
X cwaaniin, i-Y anaarilaar
X cwaan.iin, i-Y anaar.ilaar
X sing.prs_PRT_2ev, SUBJ-Y dream.obl_3sgl(w)_2ev
ec X cwaaniin, i-Y anaarilaar
ec X cwaan.iin, i-Y anaar.ilaar
to X sing.prs_PRT_2ev, SUBJ-Y dream.obl_3sgl(w)_2ev
veš X cwaaniin, i-Y anaarilaar
veš X cwaan.iin, i-Y anaar.ilaar
from X sing.prs_PRT_2ev, SUBJ-Y dream.obl_3sgl(w)_2ev
prs - present tense
obl - oblique tense
PRT - participle
3sgl - 3rd person singular
w - warm/bright noun class
2ev - 2nd level evidentiality (direct report)
SUBJ - Subject
Geoff
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Message: 17
Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 20:06:28 +1200
From: Wesley Parish <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: OT: Re: Wheels (Was: Clockwise without clocks)
On Mon, 18 Apr 2005 09:02, Roger Mills wrote:
> Rodlox wrote:
> > >From: Wesley Parish <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > >
> > > > to be fair, it takes a lot of wood to prepare the limestone needed
> > > > to
> > > > build Mayan pyramids.
> > > >
> > > > (different type or quality of wood?)
> > >
> > >Fill me in on the details?
> >
> > I'll do my best.
> >
> > > How is limestone prepared? In what way? I
> > >thought it was anaturally-occuring stone, and all necessary was to
> > >hammer/carve it into shape.
> >
> > from what I understand - from teh documentary I'd watched - wood was
> > burned
> > under a pot where the limestone was held...when it was pastey (or
> > something), the limestone was placed atop and on the sides of the large
> > stones used for construction...and then another large stone was placed
> > atop
> > that.
> >
> > I think it was a glue of sorts. I think.
>
> Unless I'm mistaken, that sounds like the primitive way of obtaining lime
> for mortar. Were the Mayan pyramids mortared??? I'd be surprised if they
> were. (In pre-industrial Indonesia they burned coral to produce lime, but
> small quantities. And isn't burning limestone basically the way cement is
> made even today? Cement factories certainly produce a ton of smoke....)
That certainly sounds like mortar, of sorts.
>
> > >To build the ramps needed to get the stone up to the top, that would
> > >require a
> > >fair amount of wood - and forethought.
>
> I wonder. Certainly the tropics don't lack for wood, but it seems to me
> that wooden ramps/scaffolding mightn't be strong enough to support the
> weight of the building stones being dragged up... In Egypt, good wood
> would have been in short supply, no? So I suspect their ramps must have
> been built of stone, and when the pyramid was finished, the stones could be
> used for some other project. Just guessing, however. (But as we all know,
> they had Alien technology to hoist those stones...:-)))))
>From the stuff I've read, I always assumed it was more an earthworking
project . you built the ramps out of sand, tamped it down with water from the
Nile, then dragged tons upon tons of stones up. The wood would've been used
for rollers.
>
> OTOH I do recall old photos of skyscraper projects in the 50s/60s in
> China/Hong Kong that were using scaffolding apparently made of bamboo; not
> anymore, I'm sure
Yes, I've heard about that. But bamboo is both lightweight and strong. It
can stand the sort of compression that the looser fibres of ordinary wood
will just buckle under.
Wesley Parish
--
Clinersterton beademung, with all of love - RIP James Blish
-----
Mau e ki, he aha te mea nui?
You ask, what is the most important thing?
Maku e ki, he tangata, he tangata, he tangata.
I reply, it is people, it is people, it is people.
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Message: 18
Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 03:33:46 -0700
From: "B. Garcia" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: OT: Re: Wheels (Was: Clockwise without clocks)
On 4/17/05, Roger Mills <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>
>
> Unless I'm mistaken, that sounds like the primitive way of obtaining lime
> for mortar. Were the Mayan pyramids mortared??? I'd be surprised if they
> were. (In pre-industrial Indonesia they burned coral to produce lime, but
> small quantities. And isn't burning limestone basically the way cement is
> made even today? Cement factories certainly produce a ton of smoke....)
The Mayans made heavy use of lime for stucco/plaster for covering their
pyramids and also for relief work. The Rosalia temple under structure 16 in
Copán is an example (it was buried under a larger temple and was intact --
stucco work and even the colors).
When you burn limestone, you get quicklime, which is essentially what
plaster is.
For actual building cement, you heat limestone and clay together until they
almost fuse, then you crush it into a fine powder. When water is added, this
gives cement.
Mayan pyramids were essentially big mounds of rubble faced with limestone
blocks. They would often frame off the site, wall it in and then fill it in
with rubble, then build another level, and fill that in. After they
constructed the building, they'd then coat it all with plaster and then add
any ornamentation and plaster work to the outside. They'd also paint the
sculpture too (as is the case with pretty much every ancient city...
everything was usually painted and plastered).
All of that construction and plastering required a LOT of limestone.
Fortunately the Mayan realm sat atop vast reserves of it.
I
--
They'll have a big parade for every day that you stay clean
But when the trumpets fade, you'll go under like a submarine
And you won't see it coming, no you won't see it coming
You could have it made up there in San Rafael
But baby I'm afraid i'll never see you well
because i've seen the tally
you're just going through the motions, baby
[This message contained attachments]
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Message: 19
Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 14:50:46 +0300
From: Isaac Penzev <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: past tense imperative
René Uittenbogaard wrote:
> Another thought crossed my mind: are perfective verbs in Russian ever
> used in the imperative? What do they mean? Examples?
Yes, perfective verbs are used in imperative, and even more often than
imperfective, because this form is considered more polite. No other
difference is usually meant, except if any perfectivizer (a prefix or a
suffix changing an imperfective verb into a perfective one) adds something
to the meaning per_se.
IA (imperfective aspect) / PA (perfective aspect):
_Pishi! / Napishi!_ "Write!"
_Rabotaj! / Porabotaj!_ "Work!" (PA adds "work for a while")
One should bear in mind, that PA has nothing to do with past tense: it show
only the accomplishement of the action, whether in past (making it similar
to aorist and/or perfect), or in non-past (making it future).
-- Yitzik
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Message: 20
Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 12:30:41 -0000
From: caeruleancentaur <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Examples wanted: How do you say this?
--- In conlang@yahoogroups.com, Ray Brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>Example:
>eo imperium tenente, euentum timeo
>he-ABL power-ACC hold-PRES.PART-ABL
>With him holding power, I fear the outcome
>There was, however, no present participle for "to be" in Classical
>Latin, so the two nouns were just put in the ablative, for example:
> Caesare duce, nihil timebimus.
>Caesar-ABL leader-ABL
>With Caesar being leader, we shall fear nothing.
I notice that, in the two examples you give, the topic of the
absolute construction is not the same as the subject of the main
clause. Is it correct to say that this is the rule with absolute
constructions? Thus, one couldn't say: With me holding power, I fear
the outcome, or With Caesar being leader, he shall fear nothing.
Have I understood this correctly?
P.S. I hope I used the word "topic" correctly.
Charlie
http://wiki.frath.net/user:caeruleancentaur
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Message: 21
Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 09:05:28 -0400
From: "J. 'Mach' Wust" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: (in)perfective imperatives (was: past tense imperative)
On Mon, 18 Apr 2005 14:50:46 +0300, Isaac Penzev <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>René Uittenbogaard wrote:
>
>> Another thought crossed my mind: are perfective verbs in Russian ever
>> used in the imperative? What do they mean? Examples?
>
>Yes, perfective verbs are used in imperative, and even more often than
>imperfective, because this form is considered more polite. No other
>difference is usually meant, except if any perfectivizer (a prefix or a
>suffix changing an imperfective verb into a perfective one) adds something
>to the meaning per_se.
>IA (imperfective aspect) / PA (perfective aspect):
>_Pishi! / Napishi!_ "Write!"
>_Rabotaj! / Porabotaj!_ "Work!" (PA adds "work for a while")
I have been said that even though the perfective imperative is more polite,
the imperfective imperative will be used when it is a severe commitment,
e.g. in _marry me!_ or in _give me a loan of a million dollars!_ Is this
true (it was in Serbian, not in Russian, but for what I know the
perfective-imperfective distinction is common to all Slavia)?
That observation was followed by the amazing remark that in imperatives, the
German "gradation particle" _mal_ (derived from _einmal_ 'once') is used in
the same conditions as the Slavic perfective imperative (and not only in
imperatives; it was a hypothesis that _mal_ might be developing into a
perfectiveness marker).
Impolite: Gib mir die Butter. 'Give me the butter.'
Polite/unmarked: Gib mir mal die Butter. 'Give me _mal_ the butter.'
Nonsense: *Heirate mich mal. 'Marry me _mal_.'
(Note that _mal_ is not a clitic of the verb; its position is variable and
it topicalizes the following phrase, e.g.:
Gib mal das Buch deinem Vater. 'Give _the book_ to your father.'
Gib das Buch mal deinem Vater. 'Give the book _to your father_.')
[EMAIL PROTECTED]:
j. 'mach' wust
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Message: 22
Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 06:31:40 -0700
From: "Joseph a.k.a Buck" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: 3 translations of the four questions for Passover.
3 translations (or as close as I can come given the cultures) of the four
questions for Passover.
English:
Q1: Why is it that on all other nights during the year we eat either bread
or matzoh, but on this night we eat only matzo?
A1: We eat only matzo because our ancestors could not wait for their breads
to rise when they were fleeing slavery in Egypt, and so they took the breads
out of their ovens while they were still flat, which was matzo.
Q2: Why is it that on all other nights we eat all kinds of herbs, but on
this night we eat only bitter herbs?
A2: We eat only moror, a bitter herb, to remind us of the bitterness of
slavery that our ancestors endured while in Egypt.
Q3: Why is it that on all other nights we do not dip our herbs even once,
but on this night we dip them twice?
A3: We dip twice - (1) green vegetables in salt water, and (2) moror in
charoses, a sweet mixture of nuts and wine. The first dip, green vegetables
in salt water, symbolizes the replacing of tears with gratefulness, and the
second dip, moror in charoses, symbolizes sweetening the burden of
bitterness and suffering to lessen its pain.
Q4: Why is it that on all other nights we eat either sitting or reclining,
but on this night we eat in a reclining position?
A4: We recline at the Seder table because in ancient times, a person who
reclined at a meal symbolized a free person, free from slavery, and so we
recline in our chairs at the Passover Seder table to remind ourselves of the
glory of freedom.
Translations
Note: letters representtheir X-SAMPA equivalents except as noted for each
language.
Palu f'Thule:
Notes: Thule do not bake bread; they often use/hanyu/ (1000) for "all"; they
normally eat on all fours; language is mainly SOV.
/!/ [|], /@/ [O\], /'/ [EMAIL PROTECTED], /lh/ [K], /sh/ [S], /ts/ [ts], /w/
[W], /y/ [j],
/th/ [T]
Q1: Sakesep hu nafe ho n'mokep hanyu heyaple hi yotsa @sakesep hu nafe ho
n'mokapi yotso p'pekolhi heyale h'.
(Sprouted grains <ob> on-nights-past 1000 eat-past-we if alone not-sprouted
grain <ob> on-night-this one for-reason-what eat-we <question>?)
A1: P'peko he t'tsipyo tyuwa hu fafele ha sakese @nunusapthe. He @sakesep hu
nafe k'the shuwapthe.
(For-reason that from-captivity running mothers-our <sj> sproutings
not-wait-past-they. That not-sprout-past grain with-them <ob>
take-past-they)
Q2: Katifo hu fele hanyu ho n'mokep hanyu heyaple hi yotsa !tsitsiyo hu fele
ho n'mokapi yotso p'pekolhi heyale h'.
(Savory leaves <ob> on-nights-past 1000 eat-past-we if alone discomforting
leaves <ob> on-night-this one for-reason-what eat-we <question>)
A2: P'peko he !tsitsiyo f'tsipyo f'fafele ho tonale.
(For-reason that discomfort of-captivity of-mothers-our <ob> remember-we).
Q3: Pyade ta fele ho n'mokep hanyu @n'heyele musaple hi le ho n'mokapi yotso
n'heyale p'pekolhi l'kike tyitsu musale h'.
(Roots and leaves <ob> on-nights-past 1000 not-at-meal clean-past-we if they
<ob> on-night-this one at-meal-our for-reason-what times-two wash-we
<question>)
A3: P'peko he le t'pushano f'tsipyo wisowaple ho tonale.
(For-reason that us from-stench of-captivity clean-past-we (ob) remember-we)
Q4: N'heyele hanyu n'mokep hanyu thuleple hi n'heyale f'mokapi yotso
p'pekolhi !tsitsinale h'
(At-meals-our on-nights-past 1000 act-as-Thule-past-we if at-meal-our
of-night-this one for-reason-what sit-back-in-discomfort-we <question>)
A4: P'peko he tsipyo ho k'!tsitsinole tonale. He lala hu tyuwale ho n'mokeq
hanyu tonale.
(For-reason that captivity <ob> by siting-back-in-discomfort-our
remember-we. That peaceful running-our <ob> on-nights-potential 1000
remember-we)
Bez Dis's:
Notes: Bez are aquatic; they do not bake; language is mainly SVO.
/'/ [EMAIL PROTECTED], /ch/ [tS], /h/ [X], /hh/ [X\], /lh/ [K], /lz/ [K\], /rr/
[R], /sh/
[S], /zh/ [zh], /á/ [a_H], /ŕ/ [a_L]
Q1: Ditórg rrathár hasbur. Rofŕt nůch zitórg sitěm shčs rrathár tŕn hasbur.
(We-usually-eat prepared seaweed. This night we eat I-questioningly not
prepared seaweeds)
A1: Hŕn'l zikán rrilhag'n narz'p toh kun soksíl zik hasbur zithars't.
Zilhág'ks zin shčs rrathár zihasbur's
(Thus we-remember-anew our-being-freed days-the-of-during zero time
it-exists us-to seaweed our-preparing-of-for. We-flee-complete ourselves
not-are prepared our-seaweed-with)
Q2: Ditórg rrathár lzarksair. Rofŕt nůch zitórg sitěm shčs rrathár
lzarksair.
(We-usually-eat prepared thick-scaled-fish. This night we-eat
I-questioningly not prepared thick-scaled-fish)
A2:Hŕn'l zikán rriserk'n slek'z.
(Thus we-remember-anew our-being-slaving hardness-the-of)
Q3: Dikál zair. Rafŕt nůch sitěm shčs zikál zair.
(We-usually-ink fish. This night I-questioningly not we-ink fish)
A3: Hŕn'l rrisčrn tňl shčs difósh
(Thus we are-sensed now not we-fear)
Q4: Didyén zan didorg'p. Rofŕt nůch sitěm ziplíp zitorg'p.
(We anchor selves meals-our-during. This night I-questioningly we-float
meal-our-during.
A4: Hhan zalhózh tois ziterg's
(These they-symbolize-anew god/transcendence our-submission-belonging-to.
Gremegr 7a7 Gweke7:
Notes: Gwagwa is a hive.culture; they do not bake; language is VPA.
/7/ [?], /br/ [B\], /f/ [p\], /gn/ [N], /gr/ [r_G], /gw/ [M\], /e/ [E], /i/
[I], /l/ [K], /rw/ [r\], /s/ [S], /w/ [v\], /z/ [Z]
Q1. tamat ga7ig gwasa7 zele7 kini7 7ad. kamat gag-dab gwasa7 vele7 kini7
dii7.
(Nurse-caste feeds here always to-brood caste-seed. Nurse-caste feeds here
today to-brood group-seed by-command why?)
A1: Kitat lil-dab 7a7 gwasa7 kini7 7ad gnapan 7a7 lagwa7 gnapa7 7ad grivegr
7ad kamat lil-dab gwasa7 vele7 7ad. rwasagw ga7ig rweke7 gwasa7 7ad.
(Nurse caste gathers far-away short-time brood. Fighter caste fights other
hive. Hive flees. Nurse caste feeds far-away-place short-time to brood
group-seed. Hive continues here always for brood caste-concept.)
Q2: tamat ga7ig gwasa7 sele7 7ad kamat gag-dab gwasa7 fele7 dii7
(Nurse-caste feeds here always to-brood caste-fruit. Nurse-caste feeds here
today to-brood group-fruit by-command why?)
A2. gnibel li7al gwagwa7 7ad rwasagw ga7ig gwasa7 rweke7 7ad.
Other hurts far-away other-time hive. Hive continues here always for-brood
caste-concept.)
Q3. tamat ga7ig gwasa7 sate7 7ad kamat gag-dab gwasa7 xate7 dii7
(Nurse-caste feeds here always to brood caste juice. Nurse-caste feeds here
today to-brood hive juice by command why?)
A3. rivegr gil-dab 7ad dasag 7ad dasig 7ad gizid 7ad rwasagw ga7ig gwasa7
rweke7 7ad.
(Hive flees far-away short time. Hive continues caste. Hive grows caste.
Hive builds caste. Hive continues here always for-brood caste-concept.)
Q4. tipat ga7ig 7ad grakagr ga7ig 7ad grakar gag-dab dii7.
(Nurse-caste here always stands. Hive here always sits. Nurse-caste sits
here short-time by-command why?)
A4. gnapan gi7ig 7ad rwasagw gi7ig 7ad rwasagw ga7ig gwasa7 rweke7 7ad.
(Caste everywhere always fights for-hive. Hive continues everywhere always
caste. Hive continues here always for-brood caste-concept.)
[This message contained attachments]
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Message: 23
Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 10:49:44 -0400
From: "Ph. D." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Examples wanted: How do you say this?
caeruleancentaur wrote:
>
> Ray Brown wrote:
>
> >Example:
> >eo imperium tenente, euentum timeo
> >he-ABL power-ACC hold-PRES.PART-ABL
> >With him holding power, I fear the outcome
>
> >There was, however, no present participle for "to be" in Classical
> >Latin, so the two nouns were just put in the ablative, for example:
> > Caesare duce, nihil timebimus.
> >Caesar-ABL leader-ABL
> >With Caesar being leader, we shall fear nothing.
>
> I notice that, in the two examples you give, the topic of the
> absolute construction is not the same as the subject of the main
> clause. Is it correct to say that this is the rule with absolute
> constructions? Thus, one couldn't say: With me holding power, I fear
> the outcome, or With Caesar being leader, he shall fear nothing.
>
> Have I understood this correctly?
This is certainly true for Classical Latin. The topic of the absolute
cannot refer to the subject or object of the main clause.
Eum imperium tenentem timeo.
he-ACC power-ACC hold-PRES.PART-ACC fear-PRES-1SG
With him holding power, I fear him.
No ablative absolute because "him" is the object of "timeo."
Note that the examples at http://www.bartleby.com/64/C001/001.html
follow this rule, while the ones at
http://linguistlist.org/~ask-ling/archive-1999.4/msg00552.html
do not.
Dr Schaufele is a professional linguist; I am not. But to me, only the
examples at Bartleby's are absolute constructions. The examples
given by Dr. Schaufele are simply participial phrases.
--Ph. D.
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Message: 24
Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 17:28:29 +0200
From: Carsten Becker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Sayings of the Wise #1
On Saturday 16 April 2005 06:54 CEST, Remi Villatel wrote:
> caeruleancentaur wrote:
> > Do not walk behind me, for I may not lead.
> > Do not walk before me, for I may not follow.
> > Do not walk beside me.
> > Just leave me alone.
Meh. I must have deleted this translation exercise ... I'm
glad you've included the source sentences again, Remi.
Here's the translation in Ayeri.
Lampoiu epang ayea, yanoyam ang pitongoiayin numima.
Lampoiu marin ayea, yanoyam ang nasyongoiayin numima.
Lampoiu caivo ayea.
Nama hangu acebay ayaris.
Lamp-oi -u epang ay -ea, yanoyam ang
walk.NEG.IMP back_of 1sg.LOC because TRG:A
/lAm"poju e"pAN AI)"ea "jano"jAm AN
pit -ong-oi -ay -in nu-mima.
lead.SBJ.NEG.1sg.TRG A. possibly
pi"t_dONgwAI)"in nu"mima/
Lamp -oi -u marin ay -ea, yanoyam ang
walk.NEG.IMP front_of 1sg.LOC because TRG:A
/lAm"poju "ma4in AI)"ea "jano"jAm AN
nasy -ong-oi -ay -in nu-mima.
follow.SBJ.NEG.1sg.TRG A. possibly
na"sjONgwAI)"in nu"mima/
Lamp -oi -u caivo ay -ea.
walk.NEG.IMP side_of 1sg.LOC
/lAm"poju "kAI)vo AI)"ea/
Nama hang-u a-cebay ay -aris.
Just keep.IMP P.alone 1sg.P
/"nama "hANgu A"kebAI) AI)"a4Is/
For the record:
+lampao: to walk; +pitao: to lead; cebay: alone
--
Edatamanon le matahanarŕ benenoea eibenem ena Bahis Pinena,
15-A8-58-2-3-2-22 ena Curan Tertanyan.
» http://www.beckerscarsten.de/?conlang=ayeri
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Message: 25
Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 17:27:55 +0200
From: Carsten Becker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Examples wanted: How do you say this?
Hey!
On Sunday 17 April 2005 07:53 CEST, Mike Ellis wrote:
> Anyone, in conlangs or natlangs.
>
> "With X being/doing A, Y did B."
>
> Use whatever nouns or verbs you like; I just need to see
> how you work this construction.
I guess Ayeri would "shoot with canons on sparrows"[1] and
uses a relative clause in the first case. The second case
uses "to be" as a zero-copula, there is no need for a
relative clause -- the trigger is not applied here:
with x.LOC REL(.LOC) do.3:x.A, y.A do.3:y b.PAT
with x.LOC OBL.adj/ptcp , y.A do.3:y b.PAT
Note that adpositions originally were counted as nouns
(with, beside = "to the side of") in this conlang and
because of this need the head noun being marked for
locative case. Also note that a relative pronoun does not
need to be marked for the case of the head word when it
directly follows it.
To archeive "Due to ...", you use the causative in the first
part. For expressing "With help of ...", you use the
instrumentative accordingly.
Carsten
[1] I didn't find a translation for "mit Kanonen auf Spatzen
schießen" in my dictionary. It means that you use all the
power of a method for something for which an easier method
would have worked as well, maybe even better.
--
Edatamanon le matahanarŕ benenoea ena Bahis Venena,
15-A8-58-2-3-3-23 ena Curan Tertanyan.
» http://www.beckerscarsten.de/?conlang=ayeri
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