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There are 9 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1. Re: Examples wanted: How do you say this?
From: Gregory Gadow <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2. Re: 1. YAESR
From: Ray Brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3. Re: Picto & Dil
From: Henrik Theiling <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4. Re: CHAT Patagonian Welsh (was: Brithenig misunderstood)
From: Ray Brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5. Re: Examples wanted: How do you say this?
From: JS Bangs <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6. Re: Examples wanted: How do you say this?
From: caeruleancentaur <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7. Re: Examples wanted: How do you say this?
From: caeruleancentaur <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8. Re: 1. YAESR
From: Joe <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9. Re: 1. YAESR
From: Henrik Theiling <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
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Message: 1
Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 09:20:08 -0700
From: Gregory Gadow <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Examples wanted: How do you say this?
> Hey!
>
> I guess Ayeri would "shoot with canons on sparrows"[1]
-snip-
> [1] I didn't find a translation for "mit Kanonen auf Spatzen
> schießen" in my dictionary. It means that you use all the
> power of a method for something for which an easier method
> would have worked as well, maybe even better.
Heh, my conculture has a similar expression: dife'llan büshaxhe
dhichol-ainom "to hunt squirrel with a catapult."
Gregg Gadow
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Message: 2
Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 18:14:44 +0100
From: Ray Brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: 1. YAESR
On Sunday, April 17, 2005, at 06:06 , Roger Mills wrote:
> _Yet Another English Spelling Reform_ ...and no, at my age I`m not
> proposing
> one.
Good :)
> However, today`s Spanish-lang. Ideolengua has a couple posts concerning
> YAESR by one Rollo Reid, called _lojikcl Inglix_, and a link to
================================================
> On Sunday, April 17, 2005, at 07:10 , Joseph Bridwell wrote:
>
>> YAESR by one Rollo Reid, called _lojikcl Inglix_, and a link to
>> wyrdplay.org. Those who are interested in or amused by ESR`s might
>
> This is spill-over from saundspel, where one can watch him, George
> Geiger and others verbally slug it out.
So ESR proponents slug it out between one another - sort of brings back
memories of Auxlang days.
Same mentality, I guess: "My ESR good, your ESR bad." How sad.
Ray
===============================================
http://home.freeuk.com/ray.brown
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Anything is possible in the fabulous Celtic twilight,
which is not so much a twilight of the gods
as of the reason." [JRRT, "English and Welsh" ]
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Message: 3
Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 14:36:20 +0200
From: Henrik Theiling <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Picto & Dil
Hi!
Ray Brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>...
> In other words, just add the plural ending to the units - just like
> Schleyer's Volapük! Arie de Jong's reformed Volapük is better than Dil in
> this matter. He introduced the word _deg_ for 10, and the other tens are
> formed in the same way as Esperanto (and modern Welsh :) by combining the
> words for 2, 3, 4 etc with 10, thus:
> teldeg = 20, kildeg = 30, foldeg = 40 etc.
And what's '200' in this lang? I suspect it is tel + another special
word (teltum maybe like in Volapük)? What's '2000'? Again tel +
another special word (maybe 'telmil')? But '20000' is totally
different (like 'teldegmil')? And the next level of base words is 'a
million', 'a billion', etc? (balion, kelion, ...)?
I still don't like this specialised treatment of a few exceptional
bases (like 10, 100, 1000 in many IE langs and 10, 100, 1000, 10000 in
most East Asian langs) with a second level of special bases (e.g. a
million in English or '100 million' in Japanese). It introduces an
asymmetry and makes translation of large numbers between, say,
Japanese and English were hard. Try translating '123,456,789' from
English into Japanese. That's very painful.
My approach that originally for Tyl Sjok uses a base and exponent
representation. Much more symmetry there:
(zero ten) three = 3,
(one) ten three = 30,
two ten three = 300,
three ten three = 3000,
four ten three = 30000
etc.
Stuff in () is optional.
It's quite simple to translate between this and English, I think.
Unfortunately, there is no empirical data about this claim. :-)
(The above number would be
'nine ten one two three four five six seven eight nine'
in Tyl Sjok, BTW. Erm, with all words directly translated, of
course. :-))
Errrm, all this is not an auxlang argument for me, but a purely
artistic, esthetical issue. I only feel that auxlangs, with their
special design goals, are one class of langs thot should have some
similar ideas. OTOH, I also feel that highly abstract artlangs like
Ithkuil should do better than natlangs ('better' = 'symmetric')
instead of using complex but asymmetric number systems. (The number
system was really the only part of Ithkuil that I found a bit immature
-- the rest was estonishing, of course, because it is so very well
elaborated.)
**Henrik
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Message: 4
Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 18:14:50 +0100
From: Ray Brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: CHAT Patagonian Welsh (was: Brithenig misunderstood)
On Sunday, April 17, 2005, at 06:40 , Roger Mills wrote:
> I replied directly to Pablo, thanks to gmail and my inadvertence...
It's happened to many us - darn gmail!
> Just to mention that there was an article on this Welsh area of Argentina
> in
> (IIRC) the NY Times (Sunday, Travel section) within the past few weeks. It
> did indeed mention that the language was still in use, though many of the
> families had acquired Spanish surnames.
>
> More Welsh toponymy (I assume)-- Puerto _Madryn_ (?)
According to "Y Geiriadur Mawr" (The Big Dictionary) _madryn_ is an
obsolete word for "fox" (he words currently used in Wales are _cadno_ and
_llwynog_). It may be that an older word has been retained Patagonian
Welsh - or possibly it may have been someone's surname.
Anyway, in pure Welsh 'Porth Madryn' is "Fox Port" :)
> Chubut is probably a native word; claro, no es español.
===========================================================
On Sunday, April 17, 2005, at 07:05 , Joseph Bridwell wrote:
>
>> Chubut is probably a native word; claro, no es español.
>
> It's a corruption of Tehuelche "chupat" meaning either "transparent"
> or "winding", referring to the primary river there.
Sounds quite plausible - thanks
Ray
===============================================
http://home.freeuk.com/ray.brown
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
===============================================
Anything is possible in the fabulous Celtic twilight,
which is not so much a twilight of the gods
as of the reason." [JRRT, "English and Welsh" ]
________________________________________________________________________
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Message: 5
Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 12:45:05 -0500
From: JS Bangs <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Examples wanted: How do you say this?
> > Anyone, in conlangs or natlangs.
> >
> > "With X being/doing A, Y did B."
> >
> > Use whatever nouns or verbs you like; I just need to see
> > how you work this construction.
In Yivrian, this is expressed with an infinitive in the ablative case. Eg:
Kírith peratyéon ala fayyal.
Kirith speaking-ABL we left.
"With Kirith speaking, we left."
This is a relatively rare construction in Yivrian, though--it's more
usual to simply use a relative clause.
--
JS Bangs
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://jaspax.com
"I could buy you a drink
I could tell you all about it
I could tell you why I doubted
And why I still believe."
- Pedro the Lion
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Message: 6
Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 17:46:52 -0000
From: caeruleancentaur <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Examples wanted: How do you say this?
--- In conlang@yahoogroups.com, Gregory Gadow <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> Hey!
>>
>> I guess Ayeri would "shoot with canons on sparrows"[1]
-snip-
>[1] I didn't find a translation for "mit Kanonen auf Spatzen
>>schießen" in my dictionary. It means that you use all the
>>power of a method for something for which an easier method
>>would have worked as well, maybe even better.
>Heh, my conculture has a similar expression: dife'llan büshaxhe
>dhichol-ainom "to hunt squirrel with a catapult."
>Gregg Gadow
The elves in my conculture have a similar expression. They are
sheepherders and they say:
oµéém meÞróós µèèla nucéra.
oµ-éém meÞr-óós µèèla nu-cér-a.
sheep-ACC.pl scythe-STA.pl with he-shear-IND
He shears sheep with a scythe.
P.S. I'm trying out a new way to form the plural. The case/number
morpheme lengthens the vowel and is accented.
óµen - oµéén - sheep, nominative
µírus - µirúús - man, stational
méÞrom - meÞróóm - scythe, motional
etc.
µ = m_0
Charlie
http://wiki.frath.net/user:caeruleancentaur
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Message: 7
Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 18:03:23 -0000
From: caeruleancentaur <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Examples wanted: How do you say this?
> Ray Brown wrote:
>
>Example:
>eo imperium tenente, euentum timeo
>he-ABL power-ACC hold-PRES.PART-ABL
>With him holding power, I fear the outcome
>>caeruleancentaur wrote:
>> I notice that, in the two examples you give, the topic of the
>> absolute construction is not the same as the subject of the main
>> clause. Is it correct to say that this is the rule with absolute
>> constructions? Thus, one couldn't say: With me holding power, I
>>fear the outcome, or With Caesar being leader, he shall fear
>>nothing.
>>
>> Have I understood this correctly?
>>>"Ph. D." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>>This is certainly true for Classical Latin. The topic of the
>>>absolute cannot refer to the subject or object of the main clause.
>>>Eum imperium tenentem timeo.
>>>he-ACC power-ACC hold-PRES.PART-ACC fear-PRES-1SG
>>>With him holding power, I fear him.
>>>No ablative absolute because "him" is the object of "timeo."
>>>Note that the examples at http://www.bartleby.com/64/C001/001.html
>>>follow this rule, while the ones at http://linguistlist.org/~ask-
>>>ling/archive-1999.4/msg00552.html do not.
>>>Dr Schaufele is a professional linguist; I am not. But to me, only
>>>the examples at Bartleby's are absolute constructions. The examples
>>>given by Dr. Schaufele are simply participial phrases.
Thanks for the affirmation. I googled for "absolute constructions"
and found those two references. For the latter I said to
myself, "Those are participial expressions."
David Crystal, in his "A Dictionary of Linguistics of Phonetics,"
says, "English displays an absolute use of adverbs and adjectives in
sentence-initial position," and gives the following as examples in
English:
However, he arrived later.
Happy, she went to sleep.
I can see "however" as modifying the clause, but it looks to me
like "happy" simply modifies "she" and thus would not qualify as an
absolute construction. We don't normally modify pronouns with
adjectives. Intonation would show a difference. But I see this as a
transformation of "The happy girl went to sleep."
Charlie
http://wiki.frath.net/user:caeruleancentaur
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Message: 8
Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 19:19:23 +0100
From: Joe <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: 1. YAESR
Ray said:
>
>
>> On Sunday, April 17, 2005, at 07:10 , Joseph Bridwell wrote:
>>
>>> YAESR by one Rollo Reid, called _lojikcl Inglix_, and a link to
>>> wyrdplay.org. Those who are interested in or amused by ESR`s might
>>
>>
>> This is spill-over from saundspel, where one can watch him, George
>> Geiger and others verbally slug it out.
>
>
> So ESR proponents slug it out between one another - sort of brings back
> memories of Auxlang days.
>
> Same mentality, I guess: "My ESR good, your ESR bad." How sad.
>
[SEMI-SATIRE]
The logical thing to do is to base any spelling reform on the other
languages 'pon this isle. And since Scottish Gaelic isn't what you'd
call easily spelt, Welsh it is.
[&] - a
[A:] - â
[Q] - o
[O:] - ô (in some positions), o
[U] - w
[V]/[EMAIL PROTECTED] - y (obscure)
[u:] - w^, w
[I] - u
[i:] - i
[E] - e
[Ej] - ey/ei/eu
[Aj] - ay/ai/au
[Au] - aw
[EMAIL PROTECTED](my dialect) - ow
[p], [t], [k] - p, t, c
[b], [d], [g] - b, d, g
[f], [T], [x] - ff/ph, th, ch
[v], [D] - f, dd
[w], [j] - w, i
[l], [r] - l, r
[n], [m], [N] - n, m, ng
[dZ], [tS] - j, tsi/tsh(finally)
[S], [s], [z] - si/sh(finally), s, s(I didn't feel right about
introducing <z>)
[h] - h
Babel text (in my dialect, plus rhoticism)-
Naw ddy howl wyrld had won langwuj, and y comyn spitsh. As men mwfd
istwyrds, ddei fawnd y plein un Sinar, and setyld dder. Ddei sed tw itsh
yddyr - 'Cym, lets meic brucs, and beic ddem thyryli.' Ddei iwsd bruc
unsted of stown, and butsiumyn for mortyr. Dden ddei sed, 'Cym, let ys
buld awrselfs y siti, widd y tawr ddyt ritsiys tw ddy hefyns, sow ddat
wi mei meic y neim ffor awrselfs, and not bi scatyrd ofyr ddy ffeis of
ddy howl yrth. Byt ddy Lord ceim dawn tw si ddy siti, and ddy tawr ddat
ddy men wyr buldung. Ddy Lord sed, 'Iff as won pipyl spicung ddy seim
langwuj ddei haf bygyn tw dw ddus, dden nythung ddei plan tw dw wul bi
umposybyl ffor ddem. Cym, let ys gow dawn and confiws dder langwuj, sow
ddei wul not yndyrstand itsh yddyr'. Sow ddy Lord scatyrd ddem ffrom
dder ofer ôl ddy yrth, and ddei stopd buldung dder. Ddat is wau ut us
côld Beibyl - bycôs dder ddy Lord confiwsd ddy langwuj of ddy howl
wyrld. From dder ddy Lord scattyrd ddem ofer ddy feis of ddy howl yrth.
Numbers -
won
tw
thri
ffor
ffauf
sucs
sefyn
eit
nain
ten
[/SEMI-SATIRE]
Well, that was a fun way to waste an hour. I think it looks quite nice.
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Message: 9
Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 21:13:31 +0200
From: Henrik Theiling <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: 1. YAESR
Hi!
Joe <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>
> [SEMI-SATIRE]
> The logical thing to do is to base any spelling reform on the other
> languages 'pon this isle. And since Scottish Gaelic isn't what you'd
> call easily spelt, Welsh it is.
Hihi! :-)
>...
> Naw ddy howl wyrld had won langwuj, and y comyn spitsh. As men mwfd
> istwyrds, ddei fawnd y plein un Sinar, and setyld dder. Ddei sed tw itsh
> yddyr - 'Cym, lets meic brucs, and beic ddem thyryli.' ...
<no_satire>
I think that's one of the nicest ESRs I've even seen! :-)
</>
> Well, that was a fun way to waste an hour. I think it looks quite nice.
Indeed!
**Henrik
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