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There are 25 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1. Re: 1. YAESR
From: "J. 'Mach' Wust" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2. Resources on the web?
From: Gregory Gadow <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3. Re: 1. YAESR
From: Damian Yerrick <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4. Re: 1. YAESR
From: Gary Shannon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5. Re: 1. YAESR
From: Joe <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6. Re: 1. YAESR
From: Alan Beale <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7. Re: Examples wanted: How do you say this?
From: Roger Mills <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8. Re: 1. YAESR
From: Tim May <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9. Re: Examples wanted: How do you say this?
From: Tim May <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10. Re: 1. YAESR
From: Joseph Bridwell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11. Re: Resources on the web?
From: Aaron Morse <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12. Re: Examples wanted: How do you say this?
From: Geoff Horswood <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13. Re: Examples wanted: How do you say this?
From: Ray Brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14. Re: 1. YAESR
From: Joe <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15. Re: Resources on the web?
From: "David J. Peterson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16. Re: CHAT Patagonian Welsh (was: Brithenig misunderstood)
From: mike poxon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17. Re: 1. YAESR
From: Tim May <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18. Re: Resources on the web?
From: Aaron Morse <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19. Re: 1. YAESR
From: Joe <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20. Re: CHAT Patagonian Welsh (was: Brithenig misunderstood)
From: Keith Gaughan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21. Re: Resources on the web?
From: Roger Mills <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22. Sayings of the Wise #2
From: caeruleancentaur <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23. Re: Announcement
From: Roger Mills <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24. Number systems (was: Picto & Dil)
From: Ray Brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25. Re: 1. YAESR
From: Ray Brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
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Message: 1
Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 16:46:04 -0400
From: "J. 'Mach' Wust" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: 1. YAESR
On Mon, 18 Apr 2005 21:13:31 +0200, Henrik Theiling <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>Joe <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>>
>> [SEMI-SATIRE]
>> The logical thing to do is to base any spelling reform on the other
>> languages 'pon this isle. And since Scottish Gaelic isn't what you'd
>> call easily spelt, Welsh it is.
>
>Hihi! :-)
A very consistent approach! I never got closer to Welsh spelling than the
letter _y_.
>> Naw ddy howl wyrld had won langwuj, and y comyn spitsh. As men mwfd
>> istwyrds, ddei fawnd y plein un Sinar, and setyld dder. Ddei sed tw itsh
>> yddyr - 'Cym, lets meic brucs, and beic ddem thyryli.' ...
>
><no_satire>
> I think that's one of the nicest ESRs I've even seen! :-)
></>
That's what I say, too!
Seemingly, satire English spelling reforms are to 'normal' ones what
conlangs are to auxlangs: A more relaxed, less stubborn and above all, a
more realistic counterpart. I like satire spelling reforms!
[EMAIL PROTECTED]:
j. 'mach' wust
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Message: 2
Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 13:45:36 -0700
From: Gregory Gadow <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Resources on the web?
I am putting together a list of web resources dealing with conlangs and
general linguistics. I have a number of items already, but many of the
things I've had bookmarked, like the Scattered Tongues web ring, seem
woefully out of date.
What I am looking for are decent, well done up pages giving FAQs, conlang
and auxlang resources, linguistics for beginners and more advanced
students... anything that a conlang hobbyist would find useful and a
non-conlanger would find informative. I want something that you would find
handy, so any suggestions you could make would be appreciated! Please post
to the list or by private email, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Gregory Gadow
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Message: 3
Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 16:07:17 -0500
From: Damian Yerrick <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: 1. YAESR
"Joe" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> [SEMI-SATIRE]
> The logical thing to do is to base any spelling reform on the other
> languages 'pon this isle. And since Scottish Gaelic isn't what you'd
> call easily spelt, Welsh it is.
[...]
> Babel text (in my dialect, plus rhoticism)-
>
> Naw ddy howl wyrld had won langwuj, and y comyn spitsh. As men mwfd
> istwyrds, ddei fawnd y plein un Sinar, and setyld dder. Ddei sed tw itsh
> yddyr - 'Cym, lets meic brucs, and beic ddem thyryli.' Ddei iwsd bruc
> unsted of stown, and butsiumyn for mortyr. Dden ddei sed, 'Cym, let ys
> buld awrselfs y siti, widd y tawr ddyt ritsiys tw ddy hefyns, sow ddat
> wi mei meic y neim ffor awrselfs, and not bi scatyrd ofyr ddy ffeis of
> ddy howl yrth.
[...]
> Well, that was a fun way to waste an hour. I think it looks quite nice.
I too like it.
--
Damian
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Message: 4
Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 14:46:56 -0700
From: Gary Shannon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: 1. YAESR
--- Joe <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
<snip>
> [SEMI-SATIRE]
> The logical thing to do is to base any spelling
> reform on the other
> languages 'pon this isle. And since Scottish Gaelic
> isn't what you'd
> call easily spelt, Welsh it is.
I thoroughly enjoyed your satire spelling reform,
however (honoring a long tradition of reform
warmongering and infighting) I have to point out
everything that's wrong with your system, and why my
satirical reform is far superior.
To begin with, making a spelling reform phonetic is
just madness! Maddness, I tell you. After all, the
language is pronounced in so many different way it's
really pointless to try to canonize one such
pronunciation in the reformed spelling. Therefore, in
the spirit of smilies (emoticons) I believe the words
of English should be drawn rather than spelled. For
example, we all know that :) means "smile". But we
could also spell "house" <= (turn it on its side, like
you do for "smile" to read it). "man" could be o|<
while "woman" would be o8|<. o^< is "walk" while oZ<
is "run". (See the arm motion of running so deftly
drawn with "Z"?) o|^ is "kneel" while o\^ is "pray".
[] is "box", |¦| is "layer cake", <@>-| is
"microphone", and obviously @)>~§ is "insurance claims
adjuster", while ^v~{|} could be nothing other than
"local area network interface adapter hub". Just to
demonstrate how self-evident all of this is, I leave
it to you to read this simple sentence: ($# %@/< *+^<>
(*( *=%^ ||<~ == [>--<. See how easy that was?
--gary
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Message: 5
Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 23:00:05 +0100
From: Joe <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: 1. YAESR
J. 'Mach' Wust wrote:
>On Mon, 18 Apr 2005 21:13:31 +0200, Henrik Theiling <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>
>
>>Joe <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>>
>>
>>>[SEMI-SATIRE]
>>>The logical thing to do is to base any spelling reform on the other
>>>languages 'pon this isle. And since Scottish Gaelic isn't what you'd
>>>call easily spelt, Welsh it is.
>>>
>>>
>>Hihi! :-)
>>
>>
>
>A very consistent approach! I never got closer to Welsh spelling than the
>letter _y_.
>
>
>
Well, Welsh and English have a pleasantly similar phonology, with the
odd exception (Welsh doesn't have [tS] or [dZ], or [z], English doesn't
have [K] or [r_h], or [x] natively). I spelt [tS] and [dZ] as well as I
could, within the Welsh orthography (I didn't make it up, of course.
See Welsh 'jwg'(jug) and 'garej'(garage), as well as 'Tsieina'(China)).
I had some trouble with final [tS], however. 'Tsh' seemed the best I
could do, in the circumstances. And <z> is a letter so alien to Welsh
that I decided to avoid it. (It's almost non-phonemic in English anyway).
And I did make some adaptations. In real Welsh, of course, <y> refers
to both [EMAIL PROTECTED](obscure) and [1](clear, in North Wales, it's [i] in
South
Wales), depending on where it lies in the word. Due to English stress
patterns, and the fact that it puts schwas wherever the hell it feels
like, I decided to drop the 'clear' pronunciation, removing it entirely
to <u>, and turning into [I] to match the English phonology. Apart from
that, I'd say that it's pretty faithful.
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Message: 6
Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 18:28:00 -0400
From: Alan Beale <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: 1. YAESR
On Mon, 18 Apr 2005 18:14:44 +0100, Ray Brown wrote:
>> This is spill-over from saundspel, where one can watch him, George
>> Geiger and others verbally slug it out.
>
> So ESR proponents slug it out between one another - sort of brings back
> memories of Auxlang days.
>
> Same mentality, I guess: "My ESR good, your ESR bad." How sad.
>
As a saundspel regular myself, I have to protest a little. I think "slugging
it out" is a bit of an exaggeration, though the discussions are often spirited
and more than a little partisan.
But I have to admit that the average saundspeller is much closer in personality
to the average auxlanger than to the average conlanger. I wish it were
otherwise, but it's not surprising - both pastimes are attractive to those who
think that an enthusiastic amateur can change the linguistic landscape, at
least if he avoids being corrupted by the complexities of real-world linguistic
and phonetic data. In my experience, the average conlanger seeks out
linguistic knowledge and understanding, while more than a few
auxlangers/saundpellers avoid this as a threat to their own natural genius.
It is indeed sad.
(And it probably says something unpleasant about me that I find both auxlangs
and ESR far more interesting than artlangs.)
--
Alan Beale [EMAIL PROTECTED]
"Yes," said a voice, and Tiffany realized it was hers again. The
anger rose up joyfully. "Yes! I'm me! I am careful and logical
and I look up things I don't understand! When I hear people
use the wrong words, I get edgy! I am good with cheese. I
read books fast! I _think_! And I always have a piece of string!
That's the kind of person I am!" - Terry Pratchett
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Message: 7
Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 18:43:52 -0400
From: Roger Mills <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Examples wanted: How do you say this?
As for the absolute constructions, they're simply impossible in Kash. You'd
have to use a clause:
When /Since/Because its/the paint was dry, we moved the furniture to the
patio.
If /Since/While (etc.) he is in power, I fear for the nation.
His rebus gestis, Caesar...
When / After he had done these things, Caesar....
====================================
Carsten Becker wrote:
> [1] I didn't find a translation for "mit Kanonen auf Spatzen
> schießen" in my dictionary. It means that you use all the
> power of a method for something for which an easier method
> would have worked as well, maybe even better.
The Engl. idiom involves using some large weapon (I forget what, offhand
:-((( ) to kill a mosquito.
The Kash equivalent would be:
uhima haprali va rungombra tecu
summon [lion-size Cousin] in.order kill [5-6 in. lizard pest]
Colloq. (somewhat substandard) pronunciation:
[u'xiNgapra'li varuN'gombrate'tSu]
Similar: haprali lulusok tecu 'Haprali chase tecu'-- devoting great effort
in the pursuit of something trivial or essentially useless to you.
There's also the expression, "seeing Martians", in my experience used mostly
of cats and dogs when they seem to be staring intently at, apparently,
nothing. The Kash used to have such an expression-- seeing aliens-- but now
that there actually _are_ Aliens on their planet, it's not used anymore.
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Message: 8
Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 23:50:11 +0100
From: Tim May <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: 1. YAESR
Joe wrote at 2005-04-18 23:00:05 (+0100)
> Well, Welsh and English have a pleasantly similar phonology, with the
> odd exception (Welsh doesn't have [tS] or [dZ], or [z], English doesn't
> have [K] or [r_h], or [x] natively). I spelt [tS] and [dZ] as well as I
> could, within the Welsh orthography (I didn't make it up, of course.
> See Welsh 'jwg'(jug) and 'garej'(garage), as well as 'Tsieina'(China)).
> I had some trouble with final [tS], however. 'Tsh' seemed the best I
> could do, in the circumstances. And <z> is a letter so alien to Welsh
> that I decided to avoid it. (It's almost non-phonemic in English
> anyway).
How is /z/ almost non-phonemic in Engish? There are hundreds of
minimal pairs in RP.
I like the scheme, though.
(You pronounce "one" [wQn]?)
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Message: 9
Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 00:07:07 +0100
From: Tim May <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Examples wanted: How do you say this?
> Carsten Becker wrote:
> > [1] I didn't find a translation for "mit Kanonen auf Spatzen
> > schießen" in my dictionary. It means that you use all the power
> > of a method for something for which an easier method would have
> > worked as well, maybe even better.
>
> The Engl. idiom involves using some large weapon (I forget what,
> offhand :-((( ) to kill a mosquito.
>
I'd guess "howitzer", but Google returns more results for
"cannon". (Not very many of either, so perhaps there's a canonical
weapon I'm not thinking of, but it isn't "bomb" or "bazooka".) I'm
more familiar with "using a sledgehammer to crack a nut".
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Message: 10
Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 00:59:12 -0000
From: Joseph Bridwell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: 1. YAESR
> As a saundspel regular myself, I have to
> protest a little. I think "slugging it out"
> is a bit of an exaggeration, though the
> discussions are often spirited and more than
> a little partisan.
To bring a bit of humor
You write "poeteitoe" and I write "pototo".
You write "toemeitoe" and I write "kréól tomoto".
"toemeitoe", "tomoto"
"poeteitoe", "pototo"
Let's call the whole thing off.
You write "niether" and I write "níðr"
You write "spirited" and I write "slugging out".
"niether", "níðr"
"spirited", "slugging out"
Oh, let's call the whole thing off.
(sung to the tune of "Let's Call the While Thing Off" by Harry
Connick, Jr.)
Now maybe I can get that tune out of my head.
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Message: 11
Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 21:31:03 -0400
From: Aaron Morse <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Resources on the web?
Browse through the http://langmaker.com resources for conlanging resources.
About my only suggestion. . .and of course add the langmaker FAQ etc.
On 4/18/05, Gregory Gadow <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> I am putting together a list of web resources dealing with conlangs and
> general linguistics. I have a number of items already, but many of the
> things I've had bookmarked, like the Scattered Tongues web ring, seem
> woefully out of date.
>
> What I am looking for are decent, well done up pages giving FAQs, conlang
> and auxlang resources, linguistics for beginners and more advanced
> students... anything that a conlang hobbyist would find useful and a
> non-conlanger would find informative. I want something that you would find
> handy, so any suggestions you could make would be appreciated! Please post
> to the list or by private email, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> Gregory Gadow
>
--
Aaron Morse
http://artlangs.com
http://czilla.com
[This message contained attachments]
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Message: 12
Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 01:41:38 -0400
From: Geoff Horswood <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Examples wanted: How do you say this?
On Mon, 18 Apr 2005 09:20:08 -0700, Gregory Gadow <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> Hey!
>>
>> I guess Ayeri would "shoot with canons on sparrows"[1]
>
>-snip-
>
>> [1] I didn't find a translation for "mit Kanonen auf Spatzen
>> schießen" in my dictionary. It means that you use all the
>> power of a method for something for which an easier method
>> would have worked as well, maybe even better.
>
>Heh, my conculture has a similar expression: dife'llan büshaxhe
>dhichol-ainom "to hunt squirrel with a catapult."
>
>Gregg Gadow
The Xinkutlan say "to kill lice with a hammer"
Geoff
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Message: 13
Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 06:31:39 +0100
From: Ray Brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Examples wanted: How do you say this?
On Monday, April 18, 2005, at 01:30 , caeruleancentaur wrote:
> --- In conlang@yahoogroups.com, Ray Brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>> Example:
>> eo imperium tenente, euentum timeo
>> he-ABL power-ACC hold-PRES.PART-ABL
>> With him holding power, I fear the outcome
>
>> There was, however, no present participle for "to be" in Classical
>> Latin, so the two nouns were just put in the ablative, for example:
>> Caesare duce, nihil timebimus.
>> Caesar-ABL leader-ABL
>> With Caesar being leader, we shall fear nothing.
>
> I notice that, in the two examples you give, the topic of the
> absolute construction is not the same as the subject of the main
> clause. Is it correct to say that this is the rule with absolute
> constructions?
Yes, it is. The 'topic' or 'subject' of the absolute clause must not be
the same as any of the arguments of the main verb, whether subject, object,
indirect object or, indeed, the object of a preposition.
> Thus, one couldn't say: With me holding power, I fear
> the outcome, or With Caesar being leader, he shall fear nothing.
Correct - the first sentence would be:
(ego) imperium tenens nihil timeo (where 'temens' is nominative singular)
..and the second would be:
Caesar dux nihil timebit
If one wanted to be more explicit, then a clause could be used, for
example:
cum imperium teneam, nihil timeo/ Caesar, cum dux sit, nihil timebit
> Have I understood this correctly?
Yes.
> P.S. I hope I used the word "topic" correctly.
Possibly not - but I understood what you meant :)
Trask defines 'topic' as:
"That element of a sentence which is presented as already existing in the
discourse and which the rest of the sentence (the _comment_) is in some
sense 'about'......"
In the two sentences I gave with ablative absolute, I would understand the
ablative absolute phrases themselves to be the topic with 'euentum
timeo' & 'nihil timebimus' as comments. But we would, I guess, need a
context in order to be certain.
===============================================
On Monday, April 18, 2005, at 03:49 , Ph. D. wrote:
[snip]
> This is certainly true for Classical Latin. The topic of the absolute
> cannot refer to the subject or object of the main clause.
>
> Eum imperium tenentem timeo.
> he-ACC power-ACC hold-PRES.PART-ACC fear-PRES-1SG
> With him holding power, I fear him.
>
> No ablative absolute because "him" is the object of "timeo."
Precisely - these phrases are labeled 'absolute' because, as Trask says:
"A constituent linked semantically and intonationally to the rest of the
sentence, but lacking any expression of a syntactic linkage: _[The day
being cloudy,] we decided to stay at home_; _The two women, [their
business completed,] retired to the bar._"
If a participial phrase can be syntactically linked to the rest of the
sentence in Latin, then it must be so linked. The 'ablative absolute' may
be used only when no overt syntactic linkage is possible.
Ray
===============================================
http://home.freeuk.com/ray.brown
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
===============================================
Anything is possible in the fabulous Celtic twilight,
which is not so much a twilight of the gods
as of the reason." [JRRT, "English and Welsh" ]
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Message: 14
Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 07:13:16 +0100
From: Joe <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: 1. YAESR
Tim May wrote:
>Joe wrote at 2005-04-18 23:00:05 (+0100)
>
> > Well, Welsh and English have a pleasantly similar phonology, with the
> > odd exception (Welsh doesn't have [tS] or [dZ], or [z], English doesn't
> > have [K] or [r_h], or [x] natively). I spelt [tS] and [dZ] as well as I
> > could, within the Welsh orthography (I didn't make it up, of course.
> > See Welsh 'jwg'(jug) and 'garej'(garage), as well as 'Tsieina'(China)).
> > I had some trouble with final [tS], however. 'Tsh' seemed the best I
> > could do, in the circumstances. And <z> is a letter so alien to Welsh
> > that I decided to avoid it. (It's almost non-phonemic in English
> > anyway).
>
>How is /z/ almost non-phonemic in Engish? There are hundreds of
>minimal pairs in RP.
>
>
Yes? Well, I couldn't think of any at the time, though now I can think
of bass /bEjs/ and baize /bEjz/. But I also have a length distinction -
so the latter is more like [bE:iz].
Either way, I suspect you could spell them, in that case, as 'beiss' and
'beis', respectively - maybe.
>I like the scheme, though.
>
>(You pronounce "one" [wQn]?)
>
>
>
Yes - is that unusual? It's certainly the norm in this area (south
Oxfordshire).
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Message: 15
Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 00:16:20 -0700
From: "David J. Peterson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Resources on the web?
Aaron wrote:
<<
Browse through the http://langmaker.com resources for conlanging
resources. About my only suggestion. . .and of course add the langmaker
FAQ etc.
>>
Yeah, Langmaker is the best resource out there, because we've
collected a *lot* of other links pages. One problem is that there
are too many links, really. For your project (and this is to Gregory),
it might be neat to see a links page arranged by subject, and, then
within each subject, by relevance, or completeness. I admittedly
have not tried to do this with my links page:
http://dedalvs.free.fr/links.html
I just kind of throw whatever I want on there in whatever order
I want. If you make a really good links page, though, then I'll
certainly throw it on there, as well. :)
-David
*******************************************************************
"sunly eleSkarez ygralleryf ydZZixelje je ox2mejze."
"No eternal reward will forgive us now for wasting the dawn."
-Jim Morrison
http://dedalvs.free.fr/
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Message: 16
Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 10:29:41 +0100
From: mike poxon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: CHAT Patagonian Welsh (was: Brithenig misunderstood)
Yes. Madryn means "fox".
Mike
>
> More Welsh toponymy (I assume)-- Puerto _Madryn_ (?)
>
--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.9.17 - Release Date: 19/04/05
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Message: 17
Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 11:15:16 +0100
From: Tim May <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: 1. YAESR
Joe wrote at 2005-04-19 07:13:16 (+0100)
> Tim May wrote:
>
> >How is /z/ almost non-phonemic in Engish? There are hundreds of
> >minimal pairs in RP.
>
> Yes? Well, I couldn't think of any at the time, though now I can
> think of bass /bEjs/ and baize /bEjz/. But I also have a length
> distinction - so the latter is more like [bE:iz].
>
Isn't that predictable before a voiced consonant?
You might find this page useful:
http://www.marlodge.supanet.com/wordlist/
/s/ vs /z/ is here:http://www.marlodge.supanet.com/wordlist/SUEZOO.txt
I don't agree with all of them - sometimes there's a vowel difference.
I don't know if this is me diverging from RP, or if those are supposed
to be predictable secondary effects, or what. But most of them do
work for me.
> Either way, I suspect you could spell them, in that case, as
> 'beiss' and 'beis', respectively - maybe.
That was what I was thinking. I don't see any better solution
(although you clearly know more about Welsh than me). You could cut
down on <ss>s a bit by writing 's and plural -s as <s> even when
they're phonetically [s]; e.g. <cats> rather than <catss>. It's
underlyingly /z/ anyway, IIRC.
>
> >I like the scheme, though.
> >
> >(You pronounce "one" [wQn]?)
> >
> >
> >
> Yes - is that unusual? It's certainly the norm in this area (south
> Oxfordshire).
Statistically, I don't know. It may be quite common - it just
surprised me. What I have for "one" (and "won"), and what my
dictionaries say, is [wVn]; [wQn] is "wan".
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Message: 18
Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 08:34:03 -0400
From: Aaron Morse <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Resources on the web?
On 4/19/05, David J. Peterson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>
> Yeah, Langmaker is the best resource out there, because we've
> collected a *lot* of other links pages. One problem is that there
> are too many links, really.
Yeah, there's quite a bit of redundancy there, but you can find really good
stuff by looking :)
As another suggestion. . . .use some type of link script and a database,
it'll make adding links and stuff sooooo much easier. Just a suggestion --
but hand-coding XHTML for each link and subject could get to be a pain. Or
use XML :?:
--
Aaron Morse
http://artlangs.com
http://czilla.com
[This message contained attachments]
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Message: 19
Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 14:43:33 +0100
From: Joe <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: 1. YAESR
Tim May wrote:
>Joe wrote at 2005-04-19 07:13:16 (+0100)
> > Tim May wrote:
> >
> > >How is /z/ almost non-phonemic in Engish? There are hundreds of
> > >minimal pairs in RP.
> >
> > Yes? Well, I couldn't think of any at the time, though now I can
> > think of bass /bEjs/ and baize /bEjz/. But I also have a length
> > distinction - so the latter is more like [bE:iz].
> >
>
>Isn't that predictable before a voiced consonant?
>
>You might find this page useful:
>http://www.marlodge.supanet.com/wordlist/
>
>/s/ vs /z/ is here:http://www.marlodge.supanet.com/wordlist/SUEZOO.txt
>
>I don't agree with all of them - sometimes there's a vowel difference.
>I don't know if this is me diverging from RP, or if those are supposed
>to be predictable secondary effects, or what. But most of them do
>work for me.
>
> > Either way, I suspect you could spell them, in that case, as
> > 'beiss' and 'beis', respectively - maybe.
>
>That was what I was thinking. I don't see any better solution
>(although you clearly know more about Welsh than me). You could cut
>down on <ss>s a bit by writing 's and plural -s as <s> even when
>they're phonetically [s]; e.g. <cats> rather than <catss>. It's
>underlyingly /z/ anyway, IIRC.
>
>
Or possibly underlyingly /s/. I can't imagine an [s] occuring after a
voiced consonant. I was planning only to double it when there's
ambiguity. (e.g. 'Ssw' 'Sue' and 'Sw' 'Zoo'). Of course, I don't think
it's attested in Welsh, but it has precedent (ff vs. f).
> >
> > >I like the scheme, though.
> > >
> > >(You pronounce "one" [wQn]?)
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > Yes - is that unusual? It's certainly the norm in this area (south
> > Oxfordshire).
>
>Statistically, I don't know. It may be quite common - it just
>surprised me. What I have for "one" (and "won"), and what my
>dictionaries say, is [wVn]; [wQn] is "wan".
>
>
>
Interesting. I merge 'one' and 'wan' as [wQn], but not 'won' [wVn].
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Message: 20
Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 15:19:13 +0100
From: Keith Gaughan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: CHAT Patagonian Welsh (was: Brithenig misunderstood)
Ray Brown wrote:
> On Sunday, April 17, 2005, at 06:40 , Roger Mills wrote:
>
>> More Welsh toponymy (I assume)-- Puerto _Madryn_ (?)
>
> According to "Y Geiriadur Mawr" (The Big Dictionary) _madryn_ is an
> obsolete word for "fox" (he words currently used in Wales are _cadno_ and
> _llwynog_). It may be that an older word has been retained Patagonian
> Welsh - or possibly it may have been someone's surname.
FWIW, it still exists in Gaelic as _madra_ ("dog"), where _madra rua_ is
"fox".
K.
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Message: 21
Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 12:17:59 -0400
From: Roger Mills <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Resources on the web?
Whatever became of "conlanglinks.tk" (for which I now get a 403 "Forbidden"
message)-- but it was simply a link to another page, which I had bookmarked
but now can't find??
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Message: 22
Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 17:52:28 -0000
From: caeruleancentaur <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Sayings of the Wise #2
Never test the water with both feet.
amvós pedós µèèla tam àµdëçáltam nesèru tupére.
amv-ós ped-ós µèèla ta-m àµd-ë-çálta-m nesèru
tu-pér-e.
both-STA.pl foot-STA.pl with the-MOT.sg water-EPEN-depth-MOT.sg never
you-test-IMPER
µ = m_0
ë = @
ç = ts)
STA = stational case
MOT = motional case
P.S. Can anyone tell me the etymology of "allerlei." I'd like to have
a word like that in the Senyecan lexicon.
Charlie
Http://wiki.frath.net/user:caeruleancentaur
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Message: 23
Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 14:03:05 -0400
From: Roger Mills <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Announcement
nile yale temandri-mes
to.them there.is chief.priest-one(=first)
ilepes arañi prakarona folaket
they.call name.his HON.blessed sixteen
Hmm, doesn't sound quite the same, does it.
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Message: 24
Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 19:09:46 +0100
From: Ray Brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Number systems (was: Picto & Dil)
On Monday, April 18, 2005, at 01:36 , Henrik Theiling wrote:
> Hi!
>
> Ray Brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>> ...
>> In other words, just add the plural ending to the units - just like
>> Schleyer's Volapük! Arie de Jong's reformed Volapük is better than Dil in
>> this matter. He introduced the word _deg_ for 10, and the other tens are
>> formed in the same way as Esperanto (and modern Welsh :) by combining the
>> words for 2, 3, 4 etc with 10, thus:
>> teldeg = 20, kildeg = 30, foldeg = 40 etc.
>
> And what's '200' in this lang? I suspect it is tel + another special
> word (teltum maybe like in Volapük)?
Yep - same in both versions of Volapük.
> What's '2000'? Again tel +
> another special word (maybe 'telmil')? But '20000' is totally
> different (like 'teldegmil')?
Yep
> And the next level of base words is 'a
> million', 'a billion', etc? (balion, kelion, ...)?
I have no information about this - I presume that this was left the same
in reformed Volapük. Also I assume _kelion_ was 'billion' in the older
German & British use of 'a million millions', and not the American (and
now IME contemporary British) use of a 'thousand millions'.
> I still don't like this specialised treatment of a few exceptional
> bases (like 10, 100, 1000 in many IE langs and 10, 100, 1000, 10000 in
> most East Asian langs) with a second level of special bases (e.g. a
> million in English or '100 million' in Japanese). It introduces an
> asymmetry and makes translation of large numbers between, say,
> Japanese and English were hard. Try translating '123,456,789' from
> English into Japanese. That's very painful.
I know - but I do not think either Fr Schleyer not Arie de Jong were
familiar with counting in east Asian langs :)
> My approach that originally for Tyl Sjok uses a base and exponent
> representation. Much more symmetry there:
>
> (zero ten) three = 3,
> (one) ten three = 30,
> two ten three = 300,
> three ten three = 3000,
> four ten three = 30000
> etc.
>
> Stuff in () is optional.
>
> It's quite simple to translate between this and English, I think.
> Unfortunately, there is no empirical data about this claim. :-)
>
> (The above number would be
> 'nine ten one two three four five six seven eight nine'
> in Tyl Sjok, BTW. Erm, with all words directly translated, of
> course. :-))
In other words: 0.123456789e9 :-)
or, in Tyl Sjok:
{exponent} ten {mantissa}
It's neat, but how easy this is the 'person in the street' I don't know -
as you say there is a lack of empirical data :-)
I guess if the exponent is greater than 9, then we'll have 'ten' expressed
twice, for example
ten one two ten three four five six seven = 0.34567e12
> Errrm, all this is not an auxlang argument for me, but a purely
> artistic, esthetical issue.
So I have understood.
> I only feel that auxlangs, with their
> special design goals, are one class of langs thot should have some
> similar ideas.
They should certainly be aware of the problem if they are supposed to
global. But the prefixes for SI units are based on the 1000 division: ...
pico-, nano-, micro-, mili-, kilo-, mega-, giga- etc and that might
suggest keeping a similar system in an auxlang - but I'll leave that to
that other list ;)
> OTOH, I also feel that highly abstract artlangs like
> Ithkuil should do better than natlangs ('better' = 'symmetric')
> instead of using complex but asymmetric number systems.
Conlangs can do all sorts of things with numbers (and indeed some do) -
they do not even have to stick with base 10. Indeed, if I ever get around
to designing an artlang, I suspect I would not use boring ol' base 10 :-
)
Ray
===============================================
http://home.freeuk.com/ray.brown
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
===============================================
Anything is possible in the fabulous Celtic twilight,
which is not so much a twilight of the gods
as of the reason." [JRRT, "English and Welsh" ]
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Message: 25
Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 19:04:04 +0100
From: Ray Brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: 1. YAESR
On Monday, April 18, 2005, at 11:00 , Joe wrote:
[snip]
> Well, Welsh and English have a pleasantly similar phonology, with the
> odd exception (Welsh doesn't have [tS] or [dZ], or [z], English doesn't
> have [K] or [r_h], or [x] natively). I spelt [tS] and [dZ] as well as I
> could, within the Welsh orthography (I didn't make it up, of course.
> See Welsh 'jwg'(jug) and 'garej'(garage),
Yep - nowadays, all but the purists recognized both the letter |j| and the
sound [dZ] as Welsh. The position of [S] is more problematic; in English
borrowings it is simply |s| if final, e.g. _ffres_ and, of course [tS] is
even more problematic :)
[snip]
> And <z> is a letter so alien to Welsh
Note quite - in south Walian one does occasionally come across _zw^_ (z +
circumflexed-w) "zoo" for the more standard _sw^_ :)
[snip]
> to <u>, and turning into [I] to match the English phonology.
Which is the way short |i| is pronounced in Welsh, as well as English :)
> Apart from
> that, I'd say that it's pretty faithful.
Um - the diphthongs are a bit out also. For example, being used to actual
Welsh _beic_ [EMAIL PROTECTED] = 'bike' I found it a bit odd for English _bake_
(which in 'Welsh English' is pronounced [be:k]) - your transcription made
me read the thing with a London accent :)
But I do agree that of all the orthographies used on our island, Welsh is
the most nearly phonemic - and, as a satire, it was funny.
=============================================
On Monday, April 18, 2005, at 11:50 , Tim May wrote:
[snip]
> (You pronounce "one" [wQn]?)
I can't speak for Joe, but one does hear [wQn] from some Brit speakers.
But I, being born & bred in Sussex, say [wVn]. But the spelling _wyn_
would suggest [ujn] in Welsh, as in _wyneb_ "face, surface". _wysg_
"direction", _wyth_ 'eight" etc.
Ray
===============================================
http://home.freeuk.com/ray.brown
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
===============================================
Anything is possible in the fabulous Celtic twilight,
which is not so much a twilight of the gods
as of the reason." [JRRT, "English and Welsh" ]
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