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There are 23 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1. Re: Where does everyone live?
From: Dennis Paul Himes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2. Re: Where does everyone live?
From: taliesin the storyteller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3. Re: Where does everyone live?
From: caeruleancentaur <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4. Re: Where does everyone live?
From: Jim Henry <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5. Re: Where does everyone live?
From: Shaul Vardi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6. Re: Where does everyone live?
From: taliesin the storyteller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7. Re: Where does everyone live?
From: "Ph.D." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8. Re: Where does everyone live?
From: Andreas Johansson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9. Re: Where does everyone live?
From: Andreas Johansson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10. Shifting of title + name in English.
From: Steven Williams <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11. Re: Where does everyone live?
From: "David J. Peterson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12. Re: Where does everyone live?
From: Henrik Theiling <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13. Re: Where does everyone live?
From: Tim May <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14. Re: Where does everyone live?
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
15. Re: Where does everyone live?
From: "David J. Peterson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16. Re: Where does everyone live?
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
17. Re: Where does everyone live?
From: Tristan Mc Leay <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18. Re: Where does everyone live?
From: Jonathan Chang <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19. Re: Where does everyone live?
From: R A Brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20. : Shifting of title + name in English.
From: caeruleancentaur <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21. Re: : Shifting of title + name in English.
From: Henrik Theiling <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22. Re: Where does everyone live?
From: Carsten Becker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23. Re: Where does everyone live?
From: taliesin the storyteller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
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Message: 1
Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2005 09:52:56 -0500
From: Dennis Paul Himes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Where does everyone live?
> In order to see where everyone lives, I've set up a Conlang
> group map at http://www.frappr.com/conlang . It would be
> great if everyone on the list would add his or her location.
Well, I added myself, but how do I view the map? The link shows a page
with a big blank white space on the left with a thin tan border, which I
guess is where the map is supposed to be, but it's blank.
============================================================================
Dennis Paul Himes <> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://home.cshore.com/himes/dennis.htm
Gladilatian page: http://home.cshore.com/himes/glad/lang.htm
Seezzitonian page: http://home.cshore.com/himes/umuto/lang.htm
Disclaimer: "True, I talk of dreams; which are the children of an idle
brain, begot of nothing but vain fantasy; which is as thin of substance as
the air." - Romeo & Juliet, Act I Scene iv Verse 96-99
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Message: 2
Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2005 16:00:45 +0100
From: taliesin the storyteller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Where does everyone live?
* On 2005-11-05 15:52:56 +0100 Dennis Paul Himes wrote:
> > In order to see where everyone lives, I've set up a Conlang
> > group map at http://www.frappr.com/conlang . It would be
> > great if everyone on the list would add his or her location.
>
> Well, I added myself, but how do I view the map? The link shows a page
> with a big blank white space on the left with a thin tan border, which I
> guess is where the map is supposed to be, but it's blank.
It works fine in Opera and Firefox. In Mozilla there's lots of broken
links and in Konqueror it'd just a white field. IE I don't have.
t.
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Message: 3
Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2005 15:10:36 -0000
From: caeruleancentaur <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Where does everyone live?
--- In [email protected], "Ph.D." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>In order to see where everyone lives, I've set up a Conlang
>group map at http://www.frappr.com/conlang . It would be
>great if everyone on the list would add his or her location.
I'd like to add my name to the group map, but I don't know what "Shout-
out" means and it's required.
Charlie
http://wiki.frath.net/user:caeruleancentaur
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Message: 4
Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2005 10:45:45 -0500
From: Jim Henry <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Where does everyone live?
On 11/5/05, caeruleancentaur <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> --- In [email protected], "Ph.D." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> >In order to see where everyone lives, I've set up a Conlang
> >group map at http://www.frappr.com/conlang . It would be
> >great if everyone on the list would add his or her location.
>
> I'd like to add my name to the group map, but I don't know what "Shout-
> out" means and it's required.
So far we're using it as a brief note about what conlang(s)
you're working on.
--
Jim Henry
http://www.pobox.com/~jimhenry/review/log.htm
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Message: 5
Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2005 18:23:10 +0200
From: Shaul Vardi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Where does everyone live?
It won't let me live in Jerusalem. Even if I sidestep politics and just
say Jerusalem (no country) it calls it an invalid city. Jerusalem an
invalid city????? What is the world coming to?...
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Constructed Languages List
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jim Henry
> Sent: Saturday, November 05, 2005 5:46 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: Where does everyone live?
>
>
> On 11/5/05, caeruleancentaur <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > --- In [email protected], "Ph.D." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > >In order to see where everyone lives, I've set up a
> Conlang group map
> > >at http://www.frappr.com/conlang . It would be great if
> everyone on
> > >the list would add his or her location.
> >
> > I'd like to add my name to the group map, but I don't know what
> > "Shout- out" means and it's required.
>
> So far we're using it as a brief note about what conlang(s)
> you're working on.
>
> --
> Jim Henry
> http://www.pobox.com/~jimhenry/review/log.htm
>
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Message: 6
Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2005 17:32:28 +0100
From: taliesin the storyteller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Where does everyone live?
* Shaul Vardi said on 2005-11-05 17:23:10 +0100
> It won't let me live in Jerusalem. Even if I sidestep politics and just
> say Jerusalem (no country) it calls it an invalid city. Jerusalem an
> invalid city????? What is the world coming to?...
Might just be slow. Choose "not in the us", type j, wait, and lots of
cities should pop up. Then type e, wait, and the list changes. Then type
r, wait, for another change. Then type u and you should be left with two
Jerusalems, one in Israel and one other.
t.
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Message: 7
Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2005 11:40:13 -0500
From: "Ph.D." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Where does everyone live?
taliesin the storyteller wrote:
>
> * On 2005-11-05 15:52:56 Dennis Paul Himes wrote:
> >
> > Well, I added myself, but how do I view the map? The
> > link shows a page with a big blank white space on the left
> > with a thin tan border, which I guess is where the map is
> > supposed to be, but it's blank.
>
> It works fine in Opera and Firefox. In Mozilla there's lots of broken
> links and in Konqueror it'd just a white field. IE I don't have.
It works okay with IE on Windows. On another list, some people
with Macs reported not seeing the map.
--Ph. D.
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Message: 8
Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2005 17:44:01 +0100
From: Andreas Johansson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Where does everyone live?
Quoting "Ph.D." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> In order to see where everyone lives, I've set up a Conlang
> group map at http://www.frappr.com/conlang . It would be
> great if everyone on the list would add his or her location.
The thing doesn't recognize the existence of my city.
Andreas
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Message: 9
Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2005 18:09:30 +0100
From: Andreas Johansson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Where does everyone live?
Quoting "Ph.D." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> In order to see where everyone lives, I've set up a Conlang
> group map at http://www.frappr.com/conlang . It would be
> great if everyone on the list would add his or her location.
Kindly disregard my earlier reply - turns out the problem was I was spelling the
city name correctly.
Andreas
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Message: 10
Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2005 19:56:17 +0100
From: Steven Williams <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Shifting of title + name in English.
Having peeked at a grammar of Old English more than
once and having laboriously worked over the passages,
I see that the order of title and name are reversed
from that seen in modern English and German. For
example, 'King Aethelred' would be 'Aethelred Cyning'.
(perhaps I'm misinterpreting the language, but I do
see a lot of this sort of construction and haven't yet
seen the more 'modern' form)
The same thing goes on in Mandarin and Japanese, where
the order is name + title (Li-laoshi, Tanaka-san, and
so on). Both of these languages are postpositional; is
there a universal for titles to come after names in
these sorts of languages?
What about Old English? While the language had a
larger number of postpositional usages than modern
English, it was still largely prepositional. When did
the shift take place to require title to precede name?
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Message: 11
Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2005 12:00:26 -0800
From: "David J. Peterson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Where does everyone live?
Ph. D. wrote:
<<
In order to see where everyone lives, I've set up a Conlang
group map at http://www.frappr.com/conlang . It would be
great if everyone on the list would add his or her location.
>>
This is a pretty cool thing. I'll add it to my links section.
Is it possible to edit your info? I added my address, but didn't
add a photo, and then I added a photo, but I didn't add a caption.
I wasn't sure how to fix that...
-David
*******************************************************************
"A male love inevivi i'ala'i oku i ue pokulu'ume o heki a."
"No eternal reward will forgive us now for wasting the dawn."
-Jim Morrison
http://dedalvs.free.fr/
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Message: 12
Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2005 21:07:48 +0100
From: Henrik Theiling <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Where does everyone live?
Hi!
David writes:
>...
> This is a pretty cool thing. I'll add it to my links section.
>...
Hmm, since it doesn't work with my browser either, it's not so cool
for me. What's the big problem about designing pages that are at
least visible in all browsers? *shakes head*
Frustrated,
Henrik
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Message: 13
Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2005 19:58:25 +0000
From: Tim May <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Where does everyone live?
Ph.D. wrote at 2005-11-05 08:59:27 (-0500)
> In order to see where everyone lives, I've set up a Conlang
> group map at http://www.frappr.com/conlang . It would be
> great if everyone on the list would add his or her location.
>
> Thanks,
> Ph. D.
It's put me in completely the wrong part of the country. Two places
with the same name, apparently. I don't see any way to fix
it... well, it's close enough on a global scale.
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Message: 14
Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2005 12:40:38 -0800
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Where does everyone live?
Watch my reply-to.
It works in Firefox and IE on Windows for me.
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Message: 15
Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2005 12:49:23 -0800
From: "David J. Peterson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Where does everyone live?
It also works on Safari for the Mac, so a lot of browsers do allow
it to work. Which browser are you using, Henrik, and can you
get Firefox?
-David
*******************************************************************
"A male love inevivi i'ala'i oku i ue pokulu'ume o heki a."
"No eternal reward will forgive us now for wasting the dawn."
-Jim Morrison
http://dedalvs.free.fr/
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Message: 16
Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2005 13:58:02 -0800
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Where does everyone live?
Watch my reply-to.
I've used firefox in several environments, with several sites (even
those that proudly proclaim M$ Only), and it still works.
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Message: 17
Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2005 10:29:56 +1100
From: Tristan Mc Leay <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Where does everyone live?
On Sat, 2005-11-05 at 17:44 +0100, Andreas Johansson wrote:
> Quoting "Ph.D." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
>
> > In order to see where everyone lives, I've set up a Conlang
> > group map at http://www.frappr.com/conlang . It would be
> > great if everyone on the list would add his or her location.
>
> The thing doesn't recognize the existence of my city.
It doesn't recognise my city either---and I'm making sure I type it in
correctly.
--
Tristan, living nowhere.
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Message: 18
Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2005 19:13:46 -0800
From: Jonathan Chang <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Where does everyone live?
on 11/5/05 8:23 AM, Shaul Vardi at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> It won't let me live in Jerusalem. Even if I sidestep politics and just
> say Jerusalem (no country) it calls it an invalid city. Jerusalem an
> invalid city????? What is the world coming to?...
ROTFLMAO.
--
Hanuman Zhang
"Life is all a great joke, but only the brave ever get the point."
- Kenneth Rexroth
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Message: 19
Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2005 07:46:21 +0000
From: R A Brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Where does everyone live?
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Watch my reply-to.
>
> It works in Firefox and IE on Windows for me.
It works fine in Firefox on a Mac for me - but IE on my Mac objects to
some of the Javascript; it allows the photos to be seen but not much else.
=======================================
Henrik Theiling wrote:
[snip]
>
> Hmm, since it doesn't work with my browser either, it's not so cool
> for me. What's the big problem about designing pages that are at
> least visible in all browsers? *shakes head*
I've more than once spent considerable trying to get things to behave
more or less the same way in different browsers on my Mac only to
discover when I view the pages on my wife's PC running Windows XP that
at least one browser - usually IE - mangles the thing :=(
What's the big problem with the browser designers getting them all to
read read code in a similar way? *shakes head*
Ray.
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Message: 20
Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2005 11:51:46 -0000
From: caeruleancentaur <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: : Shifting of title + name in English.
--- In [email protected], Steven Williams <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
>Having peeked at a grammar of Old English more than once and having
>laboriously worked over the passages, I see that the order of title
>and name are reversed from that seen in modern English and German.
>For example, 'King Aethelred' would be 'Aethelred Cyning'.
<snip>
>The same thing goes on in Mandarin and Japanese, where the order is
>name + title (Li-laoshi, Tanaka-san, and so on). Both of these
>languages are postpositional; is there a universal for titles to
>come after names in these sorts of languages?
>What about Old English? While the language had a larger number of
>postpositional usages than modern English, it was still largely
>prepositional. When did the shift take place to require title to
>precede name?
Before my hard drive crashed last June, I had a site that described
language universals. I have not needed it since then, so haven't
bothered to relocate it. There must be someone on the list who can
give us the URL. In any case, one of the universals states that in
an SOV language postpositions are used and titles are postposed. I
don't remember whether OE is SOV or not. Senjecan is strictly SOV,
so postpositions are used and titles are postposed.
Charlie
http://wiki.frath.net/user:caeruleancentaur
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Message: 21
Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2005 14:33:04 +0100
From: Henrik Theiling <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: : Shifting of title + name in English.
Hi!
caeruleancentaur writes:
> --- ... Steven Williams wrote:
>...
> >The same thing goes on in Mandarin and Japanese, where the order is
> >name + title (Li-laoshi, Tanaka-san, and so on). Both of these
> >languages are postpositional; is there a universal for titles to
> >come after names in these sorts of languages?
>...
Mandarin also has a lot of prepositions:
gei3 - to, for also the verb 'to give'
gen1 - with also the verb 'to go with, to follow'
zai4 - at, on also the locative/temporal verb 'to be'
dao4 - towards also the verb 'to arrive'
cong2 - from also the verb 'to follow'
Qing3 gen1 wo3 lai2.
please with me come.
'Please come with me.'
Ta1 zai4 Tai2wan1 gong1zuo4.
(s)he in Taiwan work.
'(S)he works in Taiwan.'
Zai4 da4xue2 wo3men dou1 xue2xi2 Zhong1wen2.
at university we all learn Chinese.
Do you mean the 'postpositions' in:
Shu1 zai4 zhuo1zi shang4.
book be.at table on/above
'The book is on the table.'
?
I thought these were analysed to be locative nouns, i.e. lit. 'The
book is at the above of the table.' The preposition (or
locative/directional verb) is still needed here. AFAIK, Japanese also
uses such locative nouns but then suffixes a postposition.
However, for time, there are indeed constructions that look like
postpositions to me:
Chi1 fan4 de shi2hou4 wo3 kan4 shu1.
eat food 's moment I watch book
'When I was eating, I read a book.'
'de shi2hou4' could be said to be a postposition. Cedict lists it as
'when'.
There are more:
yi3qian2 - before
yi3hou4 - after
...
Xia4 ke4 yi3hou4 wo3 qu4 kan4 dian4ying3.
end/down class after I go watch film.
'After the end of the class I watch a movie.'
What postpositions did you think of in Mandarin? It does not feel
clearly postpositional to me, but rather quite prepositional. But
it's not at all clear.
I think there's also a prepositional 'when' using the same 'shi2'
(time) as a noun just like the 'shang4' above plus the preposition
'zai4':
?Zai4 chi1 fan4 shi2 wo3 kan4 shu1.
Someone might want to check this, however, I'm not completely sure.
Anyway, the prominent word is also SVO in Mandarin and is SOV in
Japanese. The syntax is very different in Mandarin and Japanese, so
I'd say it's hard to find a common property by which to formulate a
universal for both of them about the name + title order.
Nevertheless, I also do think there is a universal stating that SOV
langs have name + title order, and Mandarin just also has name +
title.
> Before my hard drive crashed last June, I had a site that described
> language universals. I have not needed it since then, so haven't
> bothered to relocate it. There must be someone on the list who can
> give us the URL.
Searching my bookmarks, I found the following:
Short list:
http://angli02.kgw.tu-berlin.de/Korean/Artikel02/Appendix3.html
Large data base:
http://ling.uni-konstanz.de:591/Universals/introduction.html
**Henrik
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Message: 22
Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2005 10:10:56 -0500
From: Carsten Becker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Where does everyone live?
FWIW, I've just added myself.
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Message: 23
Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2005 16:29:09 +0100
From: taliesin the storyteller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Where does everyone live?
* R A Brown said on 2005-11-06 08:46:21 +0100
> * Henrik Theiling wrote:
> > What's the big problem about designing pages that are at
> > least visible in all browsers? *shakes head*
>
> I've more than once spent considerable trying to get things to behave
> more or less the same way in different browsers on my Mac only to
> discover when I view the pages on my wife's PC running Windows XP that
> at least one browser - usually IE - mangles the thing :=(
>
> What's the big problem with the browser designers getting them all to
> read read code in a similar way? *shakes head*
<rant>
Ah, but you see, there are two standards. One de jure, which is defined
to painstaking detail by w3c.org, the other de facto, defined by however
Internet Explorer behaves this week. The former changes slowly, the
latter each time Microsoft releases a new patch. The former can be
learnt by reading the w3c's standards, the latter by reading the w3c's
standards, implementing them and then see what does and doesn't work.
Simple, really.
However, the real problem is not Microsoft. The real problem is the
attitude is "What I the designer see is what everybody ought to see."
Why is this so hilariously wrong? Simple: You can never know in advance
whether the content you are prettifying will be read by another
designer, a real human, a program, a blind person, or a dog, on a tv, a
cellphone, a monitor, by lights blinking morse code or in some fashion
not invented yet. The most important of these is beeing readable for
programs, if a page is not, it will not be indexed by search engines,
thus be invisible and for some people (say, fanatic Wikipedians) this
means the page in question does not exist. Programs can't see the pretty
colors and the nifty left-aligned flash-scrollbar at all.
What to do? Simplify. It's not the wrapping, it's the message. Use
Occam's razor. Cut until there's nothing left that can be cut. Ignore
the desire for pixel perfection. The lovely red won't be red and lovely
for the large amount of color-blind people out there anyway.
</rant>
Now, I won't claim that my pages are perfect, I know that the frontpage
is all wrong for the color-blind for instance, and font-sizes vary like
crazy. The Taruven-pages can't even be read comfortably on extremely
small screens because the examples are set in <pre>-tags. BUT: Strip
away all the colors and effects and it's only the color-coded examples
that lose information. (I'm still working on how to improve the encoding
of examples in (x)HTML.) I used to test *all* my html in Lynx, because
if it looks good in Lynx, it'll be readable everywhere, but currently
Lynx seems to have a problem with UTF8.
t., who unfortunately averages one typo per line these days.
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