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There are 9 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1. Re: Gallopavo (was: Re: fruitbats)
From: Dirk Elzinga <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2. Gallopavo (was: Re: fruitbats)
From: tomhchappell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3. HUMOR?: fruitbats (wasRe: Butterflies)
From: tomhchappell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4. Re: HUMOR?: fruitbats (wasRe: Butterflies)
From: Rodlox R <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5. Re: HUMOR?: fruitbats (wasRe: Butterflies)
From: "Ph.D." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6. Re: HUMOR?: fruitbats (wasRe: Butterflies)
From: Rodlox R <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7. Re: Gallopavo (was: Re: fruitbats)
From: # 1 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8. Re: HUMOR?: fruitbats (wasRe: Butterflies)
From: Wesley Parish <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9. Re: Gallopavo (was: Re: fruitbats)
From: caeruleancentaur <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
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Message: 1
Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2005 11:39:44 -0700
From: Dirk Elzinga <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Gallopavo (was: Re: fruitbats)
On 11/10/05, caeruleancentaur <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> In reality, the Spanish word for what in English is called a turkey
> is
> _pavo_. _Guajalote (norteño)_ is the Mexican word for the bird. I
> presume the name is of Nahuatl origin.
Seems likely: the Nahuatl word is huexolotl (this is gallopavus domesticus).
Dirk
--
Gmail Warning: Watch the reply-to!
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Message: 2
Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2005 22:35:03 -0000
From: tomhchappell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Gallopavo (was: Re: fruitbats)
Thank you, Charlie, for your educational post.
--- In [email protected], caeruleancentaur
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> --- In [email protected], tomhchappell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
>
> >And how do you say, in your conlang(s), the "chicken-peacock",
> >known in English as "the Turkey" (the bird formerly known as "the
> >Guinea-Fowl"), and in French as "l'Oiseau d'Inde" or "Dindon
> >Sauvage",and in Spanish as "Guajalote Norten~o"?
>
> >(Scientific name Meleagris gallopavo silvestris or Americana
> >sybestris auis)
>
> >(Kingdom: Animalia; Phylum: Chordata; Subphylum: Vertebrata;
> >Superclass: Gnathostomata; Class: Aves; Subclass: Neornithes;
> >Superorder: Neognathae; Order: Galliformes; Family: Phasianidae;
> >SubFamily: Meleagrididae; Genus: Meleagris; Species: gallopavo;
> >Subspecies: silvestris)
>
> In reality, the Spanish word for what in English is called a turkey
> is _pavo_.
Yes, the Spanish-language site
http://www.damisela.com/zoo/ave/otros/gall/phasianidae/meleagridinae/g
allopavo/taxa.htm
calls it "El Pavo Común".
> _Guajalote (norteño)_ is the Mexican word for the bird.
http://www.google.com/search?
q=cache:hX9xQf5vUxwJ:www.itis.usda.gov/servlet/SingleRpt/SingleRpt%
3Fsearch_topic%3DTSN%26search_value%3D176137+gallopavo&hl=en
says
"Taxonomic Hierarchy
Kingdom Animalia -- Animal, animals, animaux
Phylum Chordata -- chordates, cordado, cordés
Subphylum Vertebrata -- vertebrado, vertebrates, vertébrés
Class Aves -- Birds, oiseaux
Order Galliformes
-- Fowls, gallinacées, Gallinaceous Birds, volaille
Family Phasianidae
-- cailles, faisans, Grouse, Partridges, Pheasants,
Quail, Turkeys
Subfamily Meleagridinae -- Turkeys
Genus Meleagris Linnaeus, 1758 -- Turkeys
Species Meleagris gallopavo Linnaeus, 1758
-- dindon sauvage, Guajolote norteño, Wild Turkey
Subspecies Meleagris gallopavo silvestris Vieillot, 1817
"
I gather that, yes, /Guajolote Norteño/ is the Mexican name, or at
least an Ibero-American name.
However, it is a name in the Spanish language, which is the main and
official language spoken in Mexico. I didn't say the Gallopavo was
called "Guajolote Norteño" in /Spain/; I said the Gallopavo was
called "Guajolote Norteño" in /Spanish/. ;-)
> I presume the name is of Nahuatl origin.
>
> _Dindon_ and _dinde_ just have to have their origin in _d'Inde_.
Well, I thought of that, but since I couldn't back it up, I said
nothing. I wouldn't be surprised if you were right. Does anybody
have a way to find out for sure?
> I don't understand the confusion of turkey with guinea fowl. They
> are two different species.
As for the fact that it was, see
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guinea_fowl.
As for why, I quote from
http://www.ku.edu/carrie/texts/carrie_books/paksoy-6/cae22.html
"The homeland of the fowl known as Meleagris gallopavo or americana
sybestris auis, is the North American continent. The 1494 Tordesillas
treaty, forged by the Pope in Rome, granted the monopoly of commerce
originating from the newly discovered continent to the Portuguese (as
opposed to the Spanish). The Portuguese brought this fowl to their
Goa colony in India. Circa 1615, Cihangir (a direct descendent of the
founder of the Mughal empire in India, Babur [1483-1530] himself a
grandson of Timur [d. 1405] wrote his Tuzuk-u Jahangiri (Institutes
of Cihangir). In his book, Cihangir also described this fowl in
detail replete with a color drawing. Since Meleagris gallopavo
resembled the Meleagris Numida commonly found in Africa (especially
in Guinea), and already known in India, the former became known in
British India as the "Guinea Fowl" (see O. Caroe, "Why Turkey." Asian
Affairs. October 1970). Meleagris gallopavo was then introduced to
Egypt, a province of the Ottoman empire and entered the Turkish
language as "hindi" (from India). When traders took a breeding stock
from Ottoman ("Turkish") Egypt to Spain and the British Isles, the
bird was designated "Turkey." As a result, the pilgrims landing on
Plymouth Rock in 1620 were familiar with "Turkey" when they
encountered it in their new home."
Also, look at the pictures on
http://www.eeb.cornell.edu/winkler/botw/numididae.html
and the videos on
http://www.hbw.com/ibc/phtml/especie.phtml?idEspecie=1148
and see if they don't remind you of turkeys except for not having the
fantastic tails.
> In any case, I have not yet catalogued the New World avian fauna.
(By the way,
http://www.birds.cornell.edu/programs/AllAboutBirds/BirdGuide/Wild_Tur
key.html
says
"A native of North America, the turkey is one of only two
domesticated birds originating in the New World. The Muscovy Duck is
the other." Are you going to call Muscovy Ducks something? (/I/
haven't got that far yet.))
(Also by the way,
http://dict.die.net/meleagris%20gallopavo/
says
"The Mexican wild turkey is now considered a variety of the northern
species (var. Mexicana). Its tall feathers and coverts are tipped
with white instead of brownish chestnut, and its flesh is white. The
Central American, or ocellated, turkey (M. ocellata) is more
elegantly colored than the common species. See under Ocellated. The
Australian, or native, turkey is a bustard (Choriotis australis).")
Has anyone started naming any Australian species?
> I do have the following names for the Old World gallinaceous fowl.
The wryneck (/Jynx torquilla/, a Eurasian woodpecker) isn't
gallinaceous (it's in Order Piciformes); but
http://dict.die.net/meleagris%20gallopavo/
says
" Turkey bird (Zo["o]l.), the wryneck. So called because it
erects and ruffles the feathers of its neck when
disturbed. [Prov. Eng.]"
so it's Old World.
> µortôcen = common partridge "P. Perdix" (interestingly, the Latin
> word for partridge _perdix_ (and the word "partridge" for that
> matter) are cognates of the word "fart"!
>
> reecînen - common quail "C. coturnix"
>
> cââµen - ring-necked pheasant "Phasianus colchicus"
>
> cacûren - rock partridge "Alextorix graeca"
>
> cáþcacûren - hazel grouse "Tetrastes bonasia" câton = forest
>
> cûxren - Caucasian snowcock "Tetragallus caucasicus"
>
> crsnëcûxren - blackgrouse "Lyrurus tetrix" crsnin = black
>
> jegértëcûxren - rock ptarmigan "Lagopus mutus" jêgon, ice + êrton,
> earth = tundra
>
> mînen - peacock Pavo cristatus
>
> tetêrcen - capercaille Tetrao urogallus
Very pretty-sounding names! Your conlang-speakers must like birds a
lot.
> tetâcen - guinea fowl Numididae sp.
Is this the "Meleagris Numida" from the above's "... resembled the
Meleagris Numida commonly found in Africa (especially in Guinea), and
already known in India ..."?
I believe that reference got the genus name and the species name
backwards.
Subfamily Numididae (Guineafowl), a subfamily of Family Phasianidae
(Quails and Pheasants etc.) in Order Galliformes, has six or seven
extant species in five genera, four extant and one extinct; the four
extant genera are Acryllium, Numida, Agelastes, and Guttera;
http://www.fmnh.helsinki.fi/users/haaramo/Metazoa/Deuterostoma/Chordat
a/Archosauria/Aves/Galliformes/Numididae.htm
gives the following subspecies among others in genus Numida:
"|--o Numida meleagris (Helmikana)
| |-- N. m. galeata (West African Guineafowl)
| |-- N. m. meleagris (Helmeted Guineafowl)
"
I looked on
http://www.hbw.com/ibc/phtml/especie.phtml?idEspecie=1148
and I have to say they look a
(mute laryngeal)(vowel)(geminated lateral)
of a lot like turkeys.
http://www.hbw.com/ibc/phtml/familia.phtml?idFamilia=39
doesn't have any pictures of Agelastes meleagrides.
----
Tom H.C. in MI
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Message: 3
Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2005 22:51:32 -0000
From: tomhchappell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: HUMOR?: fruitbats (wasRe: Butterflies)
--- In [email protected], Yann Kiraly <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> What exactley is a fruitbat? Is it an especialy big bat or does it
> specialise on fruit?
1. If a game similar to baseball, cricket, tennis, or badminton is
played with a fruit, rather than a ball or a bird, the bat used to
hit the fruit is called a "fruitbat".
2. If, when building a house or other structure out of fruit, some of
the fruit is broken, the broken pieces are called "fruitbats". (By
analogy with "brickbats").
3. A piece of fruit hurled as a weapon is called a "fruitbat".
(Also by analogy with "brickbat".
----
I'm sure there are other definitions.
E.g. from Wikipedia: "Bats, or Batsi, Batsbi, Batsb, Batsaw, is the
language of the Bats people, a Caucasian minority group, and is part
of the Nakh family of Caucasian languages. It had 2,500 to 3,000
speakers in 1975. There is only one dialect. It exists only as a
spoken language, as the Bats people use Georgian as their written
language. Until the middle of the 19th century, the Bats lived in
Tushetia, the mountain region of Northwest Georgia. The Tsova Gorge
in Tushetia was inhabited by four Bats communities: the Sagirta,
Otelta, Mozarta and Indurta. Later they settled on the Kakhetia
Plain, in the village of Zemo-Alvani, where they still live.
Administratively they are part of the Akhmeta district of Georgia.
There are some families of Bats in Tbilisi and other bigger towns in
Georgia.
Bats belongs to the Nakh family of Caucasian languages.
Most speakers of Bats live in the village of Zemo-Alvani, on the
Kakhetia Plain, in the Akhmeta district of Georgia. There are some
families of Bats in Tbilisi and other bigger towns in Georgia."
A member of this people whose elevator didn't go all the way to the
top might be called a "fruitbat"; or, that might not be politically
correct.
-----
Tom H.C. in MI
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Message: 4
Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2005 23:44:10 +0000
From: Rodlox R <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: HUMOR?: fruitbats (wasRe: Butterflies)
>From: tomhchappell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Reply-To: Constructed Languages List <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>Subject: HUMOR?: fruitbats (wasRe: Butterflies)
>Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2005 22:51:32 -0000
>
>--- In [email protected], Yann Kiraly <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > What exactley is a fruitbat? Is it an especialy big bat or does it
> > specialise on fruit?
>
>
>1. If a game similar to baseball, cricket, tennis, or badminton is
>played with a fruit, rather than a ball or a bird, the bat used to
>hit the fruit is called a "fruitbat".
>
>2. If, when building a house or other structure out of fruit, some of
>the fruit is broken, the broken pieces are called "fruitbats". (By
>analogy with "brickbats").
>
>3. A piece of fruit hurled as a weapon is called a "fruitbat".
that's a fruitcake.
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Message: 5
Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2005 19:12:55 -0500
From: "Ph.D." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: HUMOR?: fruitbats (wasRe: Butterflies)
Rodlox R wrote:
>
> > From: tomhchappell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >
> > 3. A piece of fruit hurled as a weapon is called a "fruitbat".
>
> that's a fruitcake.
I like to eat fruitcakes. I don't understand why they have such a
bad reputation.
--Ph. D
.
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Message: 6
Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2005 00:39:52 +0000
From: Rodlox R <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: HUMOR?: fruitbats (wasRe: Butterflies)
>From: "Ph.D." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Reply-To: Constructed Languages List <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>Subject: Re: HUMOR?: fruitbats (wasRe: Butterflies)
>Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2005 19:12:55 -0500
>
>Rodlox R wrote:
> >
> > > From: tomhchappell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > >
> > > 3. A piece of fruit hurled as a weapon is called a "fruitbat".
> >
> > that's a fruitcake.
>
>I like to eat fruitcakes.
so...I'm guessing you're not a cannibal.
:)
(okay, that killed the punchline, but oh well)
>I don't understand why they have such a
>bad reputation.
stereotypes, I'd guess.
>
>--Ph. D
>.
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Message: 7
Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2005 23:03:37 -0500
From: # 1 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Gallopavo (was: Re: fruitbats)
tomhchappell wrote:
> > _Dindon_ and _dinde_ just have to have their origin in _d'Inde_.
>
>Well, I thought of that, but since I couldn't back it up, I said
>nothing. I wouldn't be surprised if you were right. Does anybody
>have a way to find out for sure?
>
My dictionnary says it comes from "poule d'Inde", "India hen".
It is likely that it were called "poule d'Inde", as guinea pigs are still
called "cochon d'Inde", "India pig", in french, before being shortened in
"d'Inde" and re-spelled "dinde".
I hope having helped.
-Max
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Message: 8
Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2005 23:39:05 +1300
From: Wesley Parish <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: HUMOR?: fruitbats (wasRe: Butterflies)
Do Not Confuse with "Thick Pink Fiberglass Bats" - they are a different
species.
Scholarly opinion is still divided on whether or not Meatloaf's "Bat Out Of
Hell" was a fruitbat or a cricketbat.
On Sat, 12 Nov 2005 11:51, tomhchappell wrote:
> --- In [email protected], Yann Kiraly <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > What exactley is a fruitbat? Is it an especialy big bat or does it
> > specialise on fruit?
>
> 1. If a game similar to baseball, cricket, tennis, or badminton is
> played with a fruit, rather than a ball or a bird, the bat used to
> hit the fruit is called a "fruitbat".
>
> 2. If, when building a house or other structure out of fruit, some of
> the fruit is broken, the broken pieces are called "fruitbats". (By
> analogy with "brickbats").
>
> 3. A piece of fruit hurled as a weapon is called a "fruitbat".
> (Also by analogy with "brickbat".
>
> ----
>
> I'm sure there are other definitions.
>
> E.g. from Wikipedia: "Bats, or Batsi, Batsbi, Batsb, Batsaw, is the
> language of the Bats people, a Caucasian minority group, and is part
> of the Nakh family of Caucasian languages. It had 2,500 to 3,000
> speakers in 1975. There is only one dialect. It exists only as a
> spoken language, as the Bats people use Georgian as their written
> language. Until the middle of the 19th century, the Bats lived in
> Tushetia, the mountain region of Northwest Georgia. The Tsova Gorge
> in Tushetia was inhabited by four Bats communities: the Sagirta,
> Otelta, Mozarta and Indurta. Later they settled on the Kakhetia
> Plain, in the village of Zemo-Alvani, where they still live.
> Administratively they are part of the Akhmeta district of Georgia.
> There are some families of Bats in Tbilisi and other bigger towns in
> Georgia.
> Bats belongs to the Nakh family of Caucasian languages.
> Most speakers of Bats live in the village of Zemo-Alvani, on the
> Kakhetia Plain, in the Akhmeta district of Georgia. There are some
> families of Bats in Tbilisi and other bigger towns in Georgia."
>
> A member of this people whose elevator didn't go all the way to the
> top might be called a "fruitbat"; or, that might not be politically
> correct.
>
> -----
>
> Tom H.C. in MI
--
Clinersterton beademung, with all of love - RIP James Blish
-----
Mau e ki, he aha te mea nui?
You ask, what is the most important thing?
Maku e ki, he tangata, he tangata, he tangata.
I reply, it is people, it is people, it is people.
________________________________________________________________________
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Message: 9
Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2005 12:12:14 -0000
From: caeruleancentaur <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Gallopavo (was: Re: fruitbats)
--- In [email protected], # 1 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>My dictionnary says it comes from "poule d'Inde", "India hen".
>It is likely that it were called "poule d'Inde", as guinea pigs are
>still called "cochon d'Inde", "India pig", in french, before being
>shortened in "d'Inde" and re-spelled "dinde".
In Italian the prickly pear cactus is called "fichi d'India," Indian
figs, even though they are a new world plant. They appear on the menu
in our Mexican restaurants where they are called "nopales"
or "chumbos."
Charlie
http://wiki.frath.net/user:caeruleancentaur
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