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There are 25 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1. Re: A more challenging poetry translation challenge
From: Gary Shannon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2. Hail Mary
From: caeruleancentaur <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3. Re: Hail Mary
From: John Schlembach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4. Re: A more challenging poetry translation challenge
From: Larry Sulky <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5. fewest sounds?
From: Reilly Schlaier <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6. Re: fewest sounds?
From: Jim Henry <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7. Re: fewest sounds?
From: Kit La Touche <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8. Re: fewest sounds?
From: Paul Bennett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9. Re: Hail Mary
From: Carsten Becker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10. Re: Hail Mary
From: Jim Henry <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11. Re: Hail Mary
From: Paul Bennett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12. Jeffrey Henning
From: "David J. Peterson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13. Re: Jeffrey Henning
From: Larry Sulky <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14. Re: fewest sounds?
From: tomhchappell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15. Re: fewest sounds?
From: Tim May <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16. Re: fewest sounds?
From: Paul Bennett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17. Re: A more challenging poetry translation challenge
From: caeruleancentaur <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18. Re: fewest sounds?
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
19. Re: fewest sounds?
From: Paul Bennett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20. Re: fewest sounds?
From: Tim May <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21. Re: fewest sounds?
From: Tim May <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22. The Lord's Prayer (Was Hail Mary)
From: caeruleancentaur <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23. Re: fewest sounds?
From: Gary Shannon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24. Re: fewest sounds?
From: Paul Bennett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25. Re: Vowel Harmony
From: Herman Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
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Message: 1
Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2005 10:08:13 -0800
From: Gary Shannon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: A more challenging poetry translation challenge
--- caeruleancentaur <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
> --- In [email protected], Gary Shannon
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> >She by the river sat, and sitting there,
> >She wept, and made it deeper by a tear.
>
> Thank you for the wonderful translation exercise. I
> was especially
> taken by the ambivalence of "by." By means of? To
> the extent of?
You're welcome. I have really enjoyed reading the
responses and translations. Poetry is an interesting
dimension to explore in conlanging. It exposes all
kinds of questions worth pursuing.
--gary
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Message: 2
Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2005 18:34:49 -0000
From: caeruleancentaur <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Hail Mary
Perhaps those who are Catholic would like to translate the "Hail
Mary" into their conlang, if it has not already been done on the
list. I, by no means, exclude others. I simply believe it might
have more meaning for Catholics who might like to pray in their
conlang.
For those who don't know the prayer:
Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with you. Blessed are you
among women and blessed is the fruit of your womb, Jesus. (Taken
from St. Luke's Gospel and translated from the Greek).
Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour
of our death. Amen. (Added by the Christian community and
translated from the Latin).
Senjecan: Please forgive me. I still can't distinguish // from [].
If I have used it correctly with the following, please let me know.
q = /G/; ï = palatalization; ë = epenthetic /E/; ü = labialization;
µ = m_0; ÿ = j_0; j = j; t/d, þ/ð, £/l are dentals.
Hyphens are used solely for parsing.
STAT. = stative case.
vénd-e, ô mêêq-aþ-u, ârï-un tu-s-ë súna n-ï-ês-a (1).
hail-imper. VOC.particle favor-patient.part.-VOC.sg. lord-NOM.sg.
2sg.-STAT.sg.-epenthetic with 3sg-pres.-be-indic.
güen-ûsï (2) entéra sus-êêg-aþ-un t-ï-ês-a.
woman-STAT.pl. among well-say-patient part.-NOM.sg. 2sg.-pres.-be-
indic.
tu-güêlv-os vûûrg-un (3) jêsü-un sus-êêg-aþ-un n-ï-es-a.
you-womb-STAT.sg. fruit-NOM.sg. Jesus-NOM.sg. well-say-patient part.-
NOM.sg. 3sg.-pres.-be-indic.
ô sâc-u mârï-u (4), dejµ-âm-a, µuµú-sï agû-si ÿo t-i-mêlð-e,
VOC.particle holy-VOC.sg. Mary-VOC.sg. god-mother-VOC.sg. 1pl.-
STAT.pl. sinner-STAT.pl. for 2sg.-pres.-pray-imper.
núu µu-ðüêêjm-as tên-as-cüe. m-i-vûnd-a (5).
now 1pl.-death-STAT.sg. hour-STAT.sg-and 1sg.-pres.-agree-indic.
(1) Before a verb root beginning with a vowel, mi-, ti-, etc., are
palatalized, _e.g._ miêsa (3 syllables) becomes mïêsa (2 syllables).
(2) Likewise with an -i plural ending before a vowel, _e.g._ güenûsi
entéra (6 syllables) becomes güenûsï entéra (5 syllables).
(3) vûûrgon, fruit, is normally in the -on class that names
inanimate objects. But, since it refers here to a loquent being
Jesus, it is put in the -un class.
(4) I have transliterated the Hebrew word _Maryam_ for Mary, which
becomes _Mârïun_ in Senjecan.
(5) A weak translation for "amen." I will have to come up with
something else.
Charlie
http://wiki.frath.net/user:caeruleancentaur
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Message: 3
Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2005 12:53:33 -0600
From: John Schlembach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Hail Mary
Would you mind doing the Lord's Prayer? I'd love to see how that would look.
On 11/28/05, caeruleancentaur <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Perhaps those who are Catholic would like to translate the "Hail
> Mary" into their conlang, if it has not already been done on the
> list. I, by no means, exclude others. I simply believe it might
> have more meaning for Catholics who might like to pray in their
> conlang.
>
> For those who don't know the prayer:
>
> Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with you. Blessed are you
> among women and blessed is the fruit of your womb, Jesus. (Taken
> from St. Luke's Gospel and translated from the Greek).
>
> Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour
> of our death. Amen. (Added by the Christian community and
> translated from the Latin).
>
> Senjecan: Please forgive me. I still can't distinguish // from [].
> If I have used it correctly with the following, please let me know.
>
> q = /G/; ï = palatalization; ë = epenthetic /E/; ü = labialization;
> µ = m_0; ÿ = j_0; j = j; t/d, þ/ð, £/l are dentals.
>
> Hyphens are used solely for parsing.
>
> STAT. = stative case.
>
> vénd-e, ô mêêq-aþ-u, ârï-un tu-s-ë súna n-ï-ês-a (1).
> hail-imper. VOC.particle favor-patient.part.-VOC.sg. lord-NOM.sg.
> 2sg.-STAT.sg.-epenthetic with 3sg-pres.-be-indic.
>
> güen-ûsï (2) entéra sus-êêg-aþ-un t-ï-ês-a.
> woman-STAT.pl. among well-say-patient part.-NOM.sg. 2sg.-pres.-be-
> indic.
>
> tu-güêlv-os vûûrg-un (3) jêsü-un sus-êêg-aþ-un n-ï-es-a.
> you-womb-STAT.sg. fruit-NOM.sg. Jesus-NOM.sg. well-say-patient part.-
> NOM.sg. 3sg.-pres.-be-indic.
>
> ô sâc-u mârï-u (4), dejµ-âm-a, µuµú-sï agû-si ÿo t-i-mêlð-e,
> VOC.particle holy-VOC.sg. Mary-VOC.sg. god-mother-VOC.sg. 1pl.-
> STAT.pl. sinner-STAT.pl. for 2sg.-pres.-pray-imper.
>
> núu µu-ðüêêjm-as tên-as-cüe. m-i-vûnd-a (5).
> now 1pl.-death-STAT.sg. hour-STAT.sg-and 1sg.-pres.-agree-indic.
>
> (1) Before a verb root beginning with a vowel, mi-, ti-, etc., are
> palatalized, _e.g._ miêsa (3 syllables) becomes mïêsa (2 syllables).
>
> (2) Likewise with an -i plural ending before a vowel, _e.g._ güenûsi
> entéra (6 syllables) becomes güenûsï entéra (5 syllables).
>
> (3) vûûrgon, fruit, is normally in the -on class that names
> inanimate objects. But, since it refers here to a loquent being
> Jesus, it is put in the -un class.
>
> (4) I have transliterated the Hebrew word _Maryam_ for Mary, which
> becomes _Mârïun_ in Senjecan.
>
> (5) A weak translation for "amen." I will have to come up with
> something else.
>
> Charlie
> http://wiki.frath.net/user:caeruleancentaur
>
[This message contained attachments]
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Message: 4
Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2005 13:54:23 -0500
From: Larry Sulky <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: A more challenging poetry translation challenge
On 11/28/05, Gary Shannon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> --- caeruleancentaur <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
---SNIP---
> >
> > Thank you for the wonderful translation exercise. I
> > was especially
> > taken by the ambivalence of "by." By means of? To
> > the extent of?
Don't let me forget to create an Elomi preposition for 'by' meaning
'to the extent of'. ---eleli
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Message: 5
Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2005 15:43:06 -0500
From: Reilly Schlaier <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: fewest sounds?
what are the fewest sounds in any language i was wondering how
many sounds are required to make a language work
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Message: 6
Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2005 15:53:05 -0500
From: Jim Henry <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: fewest sounds?
On 11/28/05, Reilly Schlaier <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> what are the fewest sounds in any language i was wondering how
> many sounds are required to make a language work
Rotokas and Pirahã are probably tied with 11 phonemes,
5 vowels and 6 consonants. Some think Pirahã
has only 5 consonants so it would have the fewest.
Some languages have only three vowels
-- typically /i/, /u/, /a/ - but I think most of them have
more than the average number of consonants.
I vaguely recall hearing something about languages with
only two vowels, or even none (no phonetic
distinction in vowels, that is), but I'm not sure
how certain these phonetic analyses or
reconstructions are.
A language with very few phonemes will
tend to require more syllables to say
something than a language with many
phonemes, phonotactic constraints
being held constant.
--
Jim Henry
http://www.pobox.com/~jimhenry/conlang.htm
...Mind the gmail Reply-to: field
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Message: 7
Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2005 16:04:14 -0500
From: Kit La Touche <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: fewest sounds?
some people say pirahã... controversial claims about that language
aside, rotokas[1] is generally thought to have the smallest phoneme
inventory.
kit
[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rotokas_language
On Nov 28, 2005, at 3:43 PM, Reilly Schlaier wrote:
> what are the fewest sounds in any language i was wondering how
> many sounds are required to make a language work
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Message: 8
Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2005 16:03:19 -0500
From: Paul Bennett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: fewest sounds?
On Mon, 28 Nov 2005 15:43:06 -0500, Reilly Schlaier
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> what are the fewest sounds in any language i was wondering how
> many sounds are required to make a language work
Rotokas wins, with IIRC 10 or 11 phonemes. Depending on the phonemicity of
tones in Pirahã (it reportedly has 9), it might tie that record. I *think*
they're only pragmatic, but the documents I've seen are a bit hazy on that
count. Depending on how you count long vowels in Hawaiian (i.e. some
consider /a:/ to be /aa/), I think it's close to the record.
Technically, you only need two phonemes for a workable language, but I
can't see that occuring naturally.
Paul
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Message: 9
Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2005 16:39:09 -0500
From: Carsten Becker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Hail Mary
I'm Protestant, but anyway, I did this some time ago when a fellow German
member of the ZBB proposed it as a Translation Exercise:
www.spinnoff.com/zbb/viewtopic.php?p=285917#285917
Carsten
--
Keywords: translation_exercise
"Miranayam cepauarà naranoaris."
(Calvin nay Hobbes)
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Message: 10
Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2005 17:03:36 -0500
From: Jim Henry <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Hail Mary
On 11/28/05, caeruleancentaur <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Perhaps those who are Catholic would like to translate the "Hail
> Mary" into their conlang, if it has not already been done on the
I did the Hail Mary into gjâ-zym-byn a few years
ago, but wasn't really satisfied with the result. I'll try again here.
I'll use the ASCII orthography since I don't have a good
Latin-1 orthography and Unicode doesn't seem to carry through
well here.
http://www.pobox.com/~jimhenry/gzb/phonology.htm
mirijam-ram hoq, jqax-da nxiqn-i tq miq-i; tq i tyn-van panx.
Mary-NAME VOC grace-FULL CMT-at 2 TOP-at 2 at place-V.STATE lord
max-sxy muw-i fxurnx-box nxiqn-i tq miq-i, kinq
person-female subset-at blessed-ADJ CMT-at 2 TOP-at and
fxurnx-box nxiqn-i tq i-m sxaxm liqw-i bjynq-toxn-ga
blessed-ADJ CMT-at 2 in-part.of womb relation-at grapefruit-GNR-METAPH[1]
sqej jesxua-ram miq-i.
or.name[2] Jesus-NAME TOP-at
mirijam-ram pix'hax-box hoq, txeq'ku liqw-i kyn-sxaxm jax-i,
Mary-NAME holy-ADJ VOC God relation-at parent-womb role-at
kq-tq-pq tu-zqaxj-dox renx txiq-o lax-zox mwe,
1-2-3 AGT-moral.law-violation many help-to request-V.ACT IMP
nu koq i pe kq-tq-pq sxu-i geq'diqm-zla
moment DEM1 at and 1-2-3 quality-at day-whole.set[3]
sq-i-m hyr-sun i.
after-at-part.of hour-final at
Notes:
[1] Here is an instance of one of those idiomatic compounds we were
just talking about a few days ago. The suffix "-toxn" derives
a more general word from a specific one, and "-ga" marks a word
as being used metaphorically; "-ga" can be used ad-hoc, but some
"-ga" compounds are standard and defined in the lexicon.
[2] "sqej" is a conjunction that separates two names or appellations
for the same entity; in some contexts it would be glossed as
"also known as".
[3] "geq'diqm-zla" might be considered an idiomatic compound, too; but
"-zla" derives a word meaning the whole set of X, and "geq'diqm"
(/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/) is a sleep/wake cycle day, not a sidereal day, so it seems
like a fairly perspicuous compound for "life" or "lifespan".
--
Jim Henry
http://www.pobox.com/~jimhenry/esp.htm
...Mind the gmail Reply-to: field
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Message: 11
Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2005 17:23:49 -0500
From: Paul Bennett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Hail Mary
On Mon, 28 Nov 2005 13:53:33 -0500, John Schlembach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
> Would you mind doing the Lord's Prayer? I'd love to see how that would
> look.
I have problems with the Lord's Prayer. Adpositionally, it's rather
awkward in Thagojian. However, other than requiring things the language
just doesn't have yet, it's actually a good example of several features
I'm quite proud of. I may have to try and bypass the kludgey aspects and
try again.
I could attack it in Lizardman, I suppose. It would be far and away the
longest text attempted, and that might be useful.
Hang on...
dy y qhuu jju, qug gii o guujh dojhi jju
father of PROX NOM, MASC.SENT DIST in place holy NOM
/d_mi\ i\ RM: J\:M G\Mg gi: 7 gM:j\ d_m7j\i J\:M/
jjudid y qug u dojhi
name of MASC.SENT EQ holy
/J\:Md_mid_m i\ G\Mg M d_m7j\i/
qho jjyy qhuu dhhugi ghhyyj, u idh dduu jjyy
for day PROX provide bread, EQ customary frequency day
/R7 J\:i\: RM: z_m:Mi G:1\:J\ M iz_m d_m:M: J\:i\:/
y qhuu, u qhuu y jhodu
forgive sins of PROX, EQ PROX forgive sins of UNSP
DIST distal pronoun
EQ equitative
MASC masculine gender
NOM name marker
PROX proximal pronoun
SENT sentient gender
UNSP pronoun not specified for distance
I'm going to quit now, because I just don't have the vocabulary yet.
Also, I need more punctuation. Lizardman relies a bit on more pragmatic
signals than English. Commas just don't cut it.
Paul
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Message: 12
Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2005 14:29:54 -0800
From: "David J. Peterson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Jeffrey Henning
Hi all,
I was wondering if there was anyone who knows Jeffrey Henning
personally, or lives nearby. Langmaker.com went down several
months ago (i.e., it stopped being updated), and Jeffrey said there
were computer problems. Now, however, it's been at least a month
since I've heard from him, and he hasn't replied to any of my e-mails
(or any other langmakerteam e-mails, either). Anyway, I'm
concerned, and just hope that he's doing all right. Anyone know
anything?
-David
*******************************************************************
"A male love inevivi i'ala'i oku i ue pokulu'ume o heki a."
"No eternal reward will forgive us now for wasting the dawn."
-Jim Morrison
http://dedalvs.free.fr/
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Message: 13
Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2005 18:16:30 -0500
From: Larry Sulky <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Jeffrey Henning
On 11/28/05, David J. Peterson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> I was wondering if there was anyone who knows Jeffrey Henning
> personally, or lives nearby. Langmaker.com went down several
> months ago (i.e., it stopped being updated), and Jeffrey said there
> were computer problems. Now, however, it's been at least a month
> since I've heard from him, and he hasn't replied to any of my e-mails
> (or any other langmakerteam e-mails, either). Anyway, I'm
> concerned, and just hope that he's doing all right. Anyone know
> anything?
>
> -David
A few of us have asked after him and were assured that he's fine, just
very busy, and with no time to attend to the langmaker problem.
----larry
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Message: 14
Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2005 23:16:29 -0000
From: tomhchappell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: fewest sounds?
--- In [email protected], Paul Bennett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
> On Mon, 28 Nov 2005 15:43:06 -0500, Reilly Schlaier
>> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> what are the fewest sounds in any language i was wondering how
>> many sounds are required to make a language work
> [snip]
> Technically, you only need two phonemes for a workable language, but
> I can't see that occuring naturally.
Hi, Paul, Reilly, et al.
I agree, Paul. Assuming no tones, and only CV-type syllable-structure,
you would either need two different consonants -- all variety then
being in the choice of consonants, if there were only one vowel -- or
two different vowels -- all variety then being in the choice of vowels,
if there were only one consonant.
So, I'm going to say "at least three phonemes -- at least one vowel, at
least one consonant, and either at least two vowels or at least two
consonants".
On the other hand, if there are tones, or gemination of consonants
counts for something, or length of vowels counts for something -- maybe
only one consonant and only one vowel _could_ work.
I don't think anyone has tried a _serious_ conlang with less than four
consonants and two vowels, though -- does anyone know?
Look at
http://www.geocities.com/yizhbikh/kokipopi.html
Eric Sleator McGill's "international auxiliary language" Kokipopi,
for a not-so-serious not-really-an-auxlang with just four phonemes.
Tom H.C. in MI
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Message: 15
Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2005 00:04:46 +0000
From: Tim May <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: fewest sounds?
tomhchappell wrote at 2005-11-28 23:16:29 (-0000)
> --- In [email protected], Paul Bennett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > wrote:
> > On Mon, 28 Nov 2005 15:43:06 -0500, Reilly Schlaier
> >> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >> what are the fewest sounds in any language i was wondering how
> >> many sounds are required to make a language work
> > [snip]
> > Technically, you only need two phonemes for a workable language,
> > but I can't see that occuring naturally.
>
> Hi, Paul, Reilly, et al.
>
> I agree, Paul. Assuming no tones, and only CV-type
> syllable-structure, you would either need two different consonants
> -- all variety then being in the choice of consonants, if there
> were only one vowel -- or two different vowels -- all variety then
> being in the choice of vowels, if there were only one consonant.
>
> So, I'm going to say "at least three phonemes -- at least one
> vowel, at least one consonant, and either at least two vowels or at
> least two consonants".
>
Why would you assume CV syllables? In any case, one can make an
arbitrarily large number of words from different length strings of a
single syllable - or for that matter a single phoneme (e.g. a
consonant with some kind of vowel epenthesis). Not remotely
practical, but practicality isn't the issue here.
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Message: 16
Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2005 19:12:23 -0500
From: Paul Bennett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: fewest sounds?
On Mon, 28 Nov 2005 19:04:46 -0500, Tim May <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Why would you assume CV syllables? In any case, one can make an
> arbitrarily large number of words from different length strings of a
> single syllable - or for that matter a single phoneme (e.g. a
> consonant with some kind of vowel epenthesis). Not remotely
> practical, but practicality isn't the issue here.
Ooh! Make the two phonemes be one audible segment and one silence. I
*like* it. I like it a lot.
Paul
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Message: 17
Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2005 00:09:52 -0000
From: caeruleancentaur <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: A more challenging poetry translation challenge
--- In [email protected], Larry Sulky <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>Don't let me forget to create an Elomi preposition for 'by' meaning
>'to the extent of'. ---eleli
I had to do just that. I derived it from the verb _rêêßa_, to
stretch, to extend. The postposition can be distinguished from the
verbnoun because it has secondary pitch instead of primary pitch,
_rééßa.
Charlie
http://wiki.frath.net/user:caeruleancentaur
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Message: 18
Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2005 16:30:57 -0800
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: fewest sounds?
Check the reply-to field--I have Gmail.
Length is still a morphing feature. At lease two features of sound
are required, which include length, tone, phoneme, etc.
On 11/28/05, Tim May <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> tomhchappell wrote at 2005-11-28 23:16:29 (-0000)
> > --- In [email protected], Paul Bennett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > wrote:
> > > On Mon, 28 Nov 2005 15:43:06 -0500, Reilly Schlaier
> > >> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > >> what are the fewest sounds in any language i was wondering how
> > >> many sounds are required to make a language work
> > > [snip]
> > > Technically, you only need two phonemes for a workable language,
> > > but I can't see that occuring naturally.
> >
> > Hi, Paul, Reilly, et al.
> >
> > I agree, Paul. Assuming no tones, and only CV-type
> > syllable-structure, you would either need two different consonants
> > -- all variety then being in the choice of consonants, if there
> > were only one vowel -- or two different vowels -- all variety then
> > being in the choice of vowels, if there were only one consonant.
> >
> > So, I'm going to say "at least three phonemes -- at least one
> > vowel, at least one consonant, and either at least two vowels or at
> > least two consonants".
> >
>
> Why would you assume CV syllables? In any case, one can make an
> arbitrarily large number of words from different length strings of a
> single syllable - or for that matter a single phoneme (e.g. a
> consonant with some kind of vowel epenthesis). Not remotely
> practical, but practicality isn't the issue here.
>
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Message: 19
Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2005 19:28:09 -0500
From: Paul Bennett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: fewest sounds?
On Mon, 28 Nov 2005 18:16:29 -0500, tomhchappell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
> So, I'm going to say "at least three phonemes -- at least one vowel, at
> least one consonant, and either at least two vowels or at least two
> consonants".
>
> On the other hand, if there are tones, or gemination of consonants
> counts for something, or length of vowels counts for something -- maybe
> only one consonant and only one vowel _could_ work.
Information theory states you can do it with just two single-vowel
phonemes, if you like[*]. You don't even need a way to mark morpheme or
word boundaries, as long as you have some kind of self-segretation method
for morphemes, and some morphemes to stand for punctuation, including
"word break".
You could use use the ZIP algorithm on a statistically typical, large
corpus of a meta language and use the Huffman tree to provide
self-segregating morphemes.
Or, you can make every morpheme an exact number of phonemes long (say 16)
and let the semantics of the morphemes act to self-segregate words.
[*]Or any other continuants, I suppose. Or two "plus schwa" stops, say
/b@/ and /k@/. Or two stops, with allophonic noise of any nature other
than those stops after each one. That's one I quite like. You could hide a
text inside another one of another language by careful word choice in the
"host" language.
Paul
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Message: 20
Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2005 00:57:06 +0000
From: Tim May <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: fewest sounds?
Tim May wrote at 2005-11-29 00:04:46 (+0000)
> tomhchappell wrote at 2005-11-28 23:16:29 (-0000)
> >
> > I agree, Paul. Assuming no tones, and only CV-type
> > syllable-structure, you would either need two different consonants
> > -- all variety then being in the choice of consonants, if there
> > were only one vowel -- or two different vowels -- all variety then
> > being in the choice of vowels, if there were only one consonant.
> >
Actually, now that I think about it, if you have only one vowel and a
strict CV syllable structure, I don't think you have a vowel _phoneme_
at all. The vowel is totally predictable from the presence of a
consonant.
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Message: 21
Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2005 00:51:58 +0000
From: Tim May <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: fewest sounds?
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote at 2005-11-28 16:30:57 (-0800)
> Check the reply-to field--I have Gmail.
>
> Length is still a morphing feature. At lease two features of sound
> are required, which include length, tone, phoneme, etc.
>
I didn't say anything about segmental length - I'm talking about the
number of segments per word, like /C/ vs /CC/ vs /CCCCC/ etc. Which
might be realized as, say, [ka], [kak], [kakakakak].
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Message: 22
Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2005 00:52:20 -0000
From: caeruleancentaur <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: The Lord's Prayer (Was Hail Mary)
--- In [email protected], John Schlembach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
>Would you mind doing the Lord's Prayer? I'd love to see how that
>would look.
ç = /ts/); µ = /m_0/; ü = labialization; ÿ = /j_0/; ß = /dz)/;
ï = palatalization; q = /G/;
ô çemêlos éna µüâpa, sémun tunôômnom nisâco.
o heaven in our-father, one your-name he-may-hallow.
túmeÿµáltërêßan nigüêmo.
your-kingdom it-may-come.
sémun tutôlam épi çemêlos en' épi vüêêtos éna niµêrßa.
one your-will as heaven in so earth in he-may-do.
µúsos o soldïéjvi soldïêjam µúvargênom tidôône.
us to daily daily our-bread you-give.
épi µúcelûmi µudûûra, µúcelôsi µum tidûûre.
as our-debtors we-forgive our-debts us you-forgive.
ðêÿqam éna µum me tinîîje,
temptation into us not you-lead,
ánti ÿûðtëtas µum tisüêve;
but evil us you-deliver;
µááti meÿµáltërêßan, çêcancüe, êrcüoncüe
because kingdom power-and glory-and
ââjtam éna tuµáni nïêsa.
eternity into yours they-are
Charlie
http://wiki.frath.net/user:caeruleancentaur
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Message: 23
Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2005 17:11:02 -0800
From: Gary Shannon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: fewest sounds?
--- Paul Bennett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Mon, 28 Nov 2005 15:43:06 -0500, Reilly Schlaier
>
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > what are the fewest sounds in any language i was
> wondering how
> > many sounds are required to make a language work
>
<snip>>
> Technically, you only need two phonemes for a
> workable language, but I
> can't see that occuring naturally.
i and iii Where the only distinction is that iii has
three times the duration of i. Otherwise they sound
alike. It's called Morse Code.
--gary
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Message: 24
Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2005 20:29:48 -0500
From: Paul Bennett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: fewest sounds?
On Mon, 28 Nov 2005 20:11:02 -0500, Gary Shannon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> i and iii Where the only distinction is that iii has
> three times the duration of i. Otherwise they sound
> alike. It's called Morse Code.
I'd argue that Morse Code has phonemic silence, and that it's a writing
system rather than a language.
It's possible to avoid both these objections if you try hard enough. One
example is Machine Code, though it's not a human language, it's plausibly
linguistic -- certainly it's close enough to Chinese, for instance, or
Khmer.
Paul
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Message: 25
Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2005 20:50:25 -0600
From: Herman Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Vowel Harmony
Steven Williams wrote:
> I've read about retroflexion harmony in some language
> families, but I can't for the life of me remember
> which ones (perhaps Dravidian or Indo-Aryan?).
> Basically, dental [n_d] tends to harmonize with
> retroflex [n`], even at a distance of a syllable or so
> in a word. Not sure about the plosives, though.
I vaguely remember reading something about that ... one of the
Australian languages?
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