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There are 20 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1. Re: Lenition or Elision or What?
From: R A Brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2. Re: Pronunciation guides for non-linguists
From: Andreas Johansson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3. Re: [OT] Finnish English
From: Andreas Johansson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4. Re: [OT] Finnish English
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
5. Re: Etymology of _insula_ (was Re: Thoughts on Word building)
From: Rob Haden <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6. Re: A short story to translate
From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7. TECH: UTF-8 Test (was: Re: Lenition or Elision or What?)
From: Carsten Becker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8. Re: TECH: UTF-8 Test (was: Re: Lenition or Elision or What?)
From: "Mark J. Reed" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9. Re: Pronunciation guides for non-linguists
From: Henrik Theiling <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10. Re: A short story to translate
From: Gary Shannon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11. Re: Lenition or Elision or What?
From: Isaac Penzev <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12. Re: Etymology of _insula_ (was Re: Thoughts on Word building)
From: R A Brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13. Re: A short story to translate
From: Jim Henry <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14. Re: A short story to translate
From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15. Re: A short story to translate
From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16. Re: Lenition or Elision or What?
From: R A Brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17. Re: Haiku Translation - Piercing Chill
From: Carsten Becker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18. Re: Pronunciation guides for non-linguists
From: Carsten Becker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19. Re: TECH: UTF-8 Test (was: Re: Lenition or Elision or What?)
From: Carsten Becker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20. Re: TECH: UTF-8 Test (was: Re: Lenition or Elision or What?)
From: Carsten Becker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
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Message: 1
Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 17:10:23 +0000
From: R A Brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Lenition or Elision or What?
caeruleancentaur wrote:
> --- In [email protected], caeruleancentaur
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>
>>There is a phonetic phenomenon in Senjecan that occurs when the
>>personal pronoun nominative + the present tense marker are prefixed
>>to a verbnoun with an initial vowel.
>
>
>>m-i-ât-a /mi'at_da/
>>1sg.-pres.-go-indic.
>>I go.
>
>
>>This becomes mïâta. m_j'at_da
>
>
> Something similar, if not identical, happens in Swahili.
I regret to say, I find no evidence to support that.
> In the
> KITU class of nouns, ki- is prefixed to the root for the singular
> and vi- for the plural, e.g., kikapu, basket; vikapu, baskets.
> However, sometimes before a vowel these prefixes are altered to "ch"
> and "vy" respectively. Thus ki-umba, room, becomes chumba, and vi-
> umba, rooms, becomes vyumba. My text doesn't give a name for this
> phenomenon. I would imagine that the spelling "vyumba" indicates a
> palatal consonant.
I don't know why. I know of no evidence that |vy| indicates [v_j]; I
have always understood that |vy| meant exactly what it indicated, namely
[vj]. After all, this is a common enough treatment of |i| before vowels
in the Romance languages (and many others) - the difference is that they
don't show the change in writing - cf.
French _bien_ [bjE~]
Italian _piano_ ['pjano]
Spanish _siete_ ['sjete]
As for _chumba_, this is surely nothing other than the very common sound
change of [kj] to [c] or a affricate such as [tç], [tS]. Such changes
happened in Proto-Greek, in Vulgar Latin (as reflected still in Italian
and church Latin pronunciation of |c|), in the modern Scandinavian
languages and in many other parts of the world.
>
> I do not know why this doesn't occur in all such situations. E.g.
> kiatu, shoe, and viatu, shoes!
Or _kiazi_ 'potato' ~ _viatu_ potatoes.
A natlang has to have exceptions :-)
I suspect it depends at what at what stage these words entered the
language, from what dialect etc.
>
> Charlie
> http://wiki.frath.net/user:caeruleancentaur
> --
> This email has been verified as Virus free
> Virus Protection and more available at http://www.plus.net
>
--
Ray
==================================
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.carolandray.plus.com
==================================
MAKE POVERTY HISTORY
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Message: 2
Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 18:43:07 +0100
From: Andreas Johansson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Pronunciation guides for non-linguists
Quoting Henrik Theiling <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> Hi!
>
> Paul Bennett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> > On Sun, 11 Dec 2005 14:07:53 -0500, Gary Shannon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > > What I'd like is a table with columns across the top
> > > for various languages so that "A" might be described
> > > in the "English" column as "fAther", and in the
> > > "Deutsch" column as "vAter", and in the Espanol column
> > > as "pAdre", and so on.
> >
> > This is a good idea. You're headed for trouble if you don't specify
> > which dialect(s) of English. "A" in "father" is usually /A/ but it
> > can be /V/, /a/ or even /E/, plus or minus /:/. OTOH, having a set of
> > comparison languages would help disambiguate a lot.
>
> Same for German: [A] is not used is many dialects. It is tradition to
> write [A:] vs. [a],
It is? My textbooks have without exception written [a:] vs [a], and includes one
written by Germans for Germans.
> but most dialects I a aware of have a centralised
> [a_"] (+- length) for both. Anyway, there's [A:] vs. [a] in northern
> dialect, and probably others. So it'd not be clear what you mean from
> the German entry alone, either.
Well, the "official" pronunciation, as set out in Duden, has [a:]. In fact, my
copy of Duden takes the trouble to contrast the [a:] of "Bahn" with the [A:] of
English loans like "Hardware". Presumably this is what a guide like Gary's would
be refering to.
FWIW, my German teachers made a point of making us pronounce /a:/ as [a:]
instead of [A:] (the value of Swedish /a:/).
Andreas
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Message: 3
Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 19:05:01 +0100
From: Andreas Johansson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [OT] Finnish English
Quoting John Vertical <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> Roger Mills wrote:
> >
> >John Vertical wrote:
> > > Anyway, practically everyone here pronounces "New York" as
> > > /ny: jo:k/ or some variation thereof. The fronting applies widely
> > > to word-final /ju:/, and some people (like me) extend this to
> > > various other environments - at its worst, to all non-initial
> > > positions. The /y:/ in question tends to be a [y:] proper only in
> > > the speech of people with little to none English fluency.
> > > Eg. I pronounce "few new clues" as something like [fHu\ n_jHu\
> > > k_hlHu\s] and definitely not [fy: ny: kly:s]
> >
> >To me is sounds as if you've simply adopted the local pronunciation
> >of that particular name, New York, which in turn is probably based
> >on Swedish _ny_ or maybe just some local deformation.......
>
> >Would you pronounce [ny:] in a less-known name, say, New Brunswick, New
> >Haven, Newton Upper Falls :-)))??
>
> Um, as explained, I would not pronounce *[y:]* in ANY English word (except
> maybe for parody reasons)... but what I call /y:/ I do use in all instances
> of "new". You're probably right about the Swedish influence, but this also
> applies to words where there is no instantly obvious Swedish cognate - say,
> "few".
If some Swedish input be welcome here, I'd like to mention that while the
Swedish cognates of English words with [ju] often have [y:], eg 'new'~'ny',
English loans with [ju] generally don't get adopted with /y:/. For instance, I,
when talking Swedish, pronounce "New York" as [nju\: jo:k].
ObTangent: As a kid, I sometimes used the spelling pronunciation [nEv jOr`k]. I
can't readily explain the short vowel in the first syllable, since short vowel
+ /v/ is *very* rare in Swedish, and the single following consonant ought
suggest a long vowel anyway.
Andreas
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Message: 4
Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 09:51:22 -0800
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [OT] Finnish English
The main consideration with Finnish English is number of sounds. A
bit like the orthography in my language: I had no stops, so I must
look for other similarities. In Finnish, an example is "tsa:t", which
is about how they wuold pronounce "chat."
On 12/12/05, John Vertical <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Roger Mills wrote:
> >
> >John Vertical wrote:
> > > Anyway, practically everyone here pronounces "New York" as
> > > /ny: jo:k/ or some variation thereof. The fronting applies widely
> > > to word-final /ju:/, and some people (like me) extend this to
> > > various other environments - at its worst, to all non-initial
> > > positions. The /y:/ in question tends to be a [y:] proper only in
> > > the speech of people with little to none English fluency.
> > > Eg. I pronounce "few new clues" as something like [fHu\ n_jHu\
> > > k_hlHu\s] and definitely not [fy: ny: kly:s]
> >
> >To me is sounds as if you've simply adopted the local pronunciation
> >of that particular name, New York, which in turn is probably based
> >on Swedish _ny_ or maybe just some local deformation.......
>
> >Would you pronounce [ny:] in a less-known name, say, New Brunswick, New
> >Haven, Newton Upper Falls :-)))??
>
> Um, as explained, I would not pronounce *[y:]* in ANY English word (except
> maybe for parody reasons)... but what I call /y:/ I do use in all instances
> of "new". You're probably right about the Swedish influence, but this also
> applies to words where there is no instantly obvious Swedish cognate - say,
> "few".
>
>
> > > I could dig deeper into the stereotypical Finnish pronounciation of >
> >English, but I guess you may have lost your interest already.
> >
> >Not at all. I'm sure there's a "Finnish-English" accent, just as there are
> >XXX-English accents in every country where Engl. is an acquired language--
> >and for many, not as carefully studied (or taught), perhaps, as one might
> >wish.
>
> Certainly there is. But mostly it's just mapping English phonemes to Finnish
> ones, mixed with a number of spelling pronounciations and L1 analogies.
> You are right, however, that it's not really studied or taught as well as it
> could. During the 10 years of English I read in school, I don't recall *any*
> teacher or textbook explicitely mentioning that there are differences
> between eg. English /U/ and Finnish /u/. (Of course we had audio material to
> listen to for correct pronounciation, but said distinction and several
> others are lost to Finnish ears.)
>
> John Vertical
>
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Message: 5
Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 14:04:08 -0500
From: Rob Haden <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Etymology of _insula_ (was Re: Thoughts on Word building)
On Fri, 9 Dec 2005 12:53:44 +0000, R A Brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
>> Erm - I think he meant that the words for "island" were related to
>> "swim" (instead of "nose"), not that "nose" was related to "swim"
>> (instead of "island"). :)
>
>Correct - or more exactly that I have seen it claimed that the Greek
>words for 'island' are derived the PIE root "swim". Support for this is
>said to be the frequent stories among the Greeks of floating (i.e.
>swimming) islands. But I am not convinced by this.
>
>I did not intend to suggest any connexion between noses & swimming.
No problem. I'm also not convinced by any possible connections
between 'swim' and 'island'. It seems more semantically plausible that
an 'island' is like a nose of land that sticks up out of the water.
>===================================
>
>Rob Haden wrote:
> > On Thu, 8 Dec 2005 16:16:15 +0000, R A Brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > wrote:
>[snip]
> >
> >>But the meaning is against it, I think. The meaning 'nose' had long been
> >>forgotten by the Greeks (whose word for 'nose' was _rhis_ (gen:
> >>_rhinos_)). I suspect it [nasus] is from a Italian dialect form.
> >
> >
> > It could be. Or, the original Greek form was *na:ssos -- see below.
>
>{slaps head!} Of course - blush! i feel so ashamed at not noticing that.
>
>[snip]
> >
> > There's another slight problem, actually. Intervocalic */s/ becomes /0/
> > (via */h/) before Greek.
>
>Of course it does. Yep, a Proto-Greek *na:sos would have give /na:os/
>(Doric), /nE:os/ (Ionic) and /neO:s/ (Attic).
Interestingly enough, that is the Greek word for 'temple'. Could there be
a connection here?
> >So, either the original Greek word was *na:ssos,
> > or */s/ became */h/ before */x/ (= 'h2') was lost.
>
>I would think it was *na:ssos, which would also, of course, account for
>the Latin _na:sus_
The question is, where did the second /s/ come from?
[snip]
> > It looks rather tempting to try to link the Celtic words for 'nose' with
> > Greek _rhî:s_, _rhinós_ (if from something like *srign-), but it's
> > probably too good to be true.
>
>It does, doesn't it? :)
>
>I am fairly certain that some have claimed this, but MacBain does not
>suggest this nor quote any authorities. The vowels would take some
>explaining, methinks.
>
>However, he does connect the Celtic *srogn- with Greek _rhenkein_/
>_rhenkhein_ "to snore", which I suppose is possible if we have
>metathesis of -ghn- ~ ngh-
Do the Greek variants have a dialectal distribution? That is, are their
distributions mutually exclusive?
I agree that metathesis of *-ghn- to *-ngh- is more likely than vice-
versa. Plus IE */g_h/ becomes Celtic */g/. However, one problem is the
Greek vocalism -- _rhenk(h)ein_ vs. _rhis_, _rhinos_. Also, if the
presumed */g_h/ was part of the root, we should see Greek _rhinks_,
_rhinkos_ -- to my knowledge, we do not see that. We *do* see, though, a
Greek word _rhunkhos_ (neuter s-stem), meaning 'snout' or 'muzzle'.
Semantically, this is similar to 'nose' in the sense of "jutting/sticking
out". Interestingly, this might be related to _rhenk(h)ein_ 'to snore' and
_-runkhs_ as in _pharunkhs_ 'pharynx'. What do you think?
- Rob
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Message: 6
Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 14:28:44 -0500
From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: A short story to translate
MiddelFolksprâk:
Danti on de asel
Thomas besöke Danti de nar.
Ig ha mennig grönfod to bringe to de markt, Thomas sege.
Mag ig brûke dîn asel?
Danti de nar sege: "ig ha geved hem alrede an en ander."
Thomas sege: "du liuge! Ig höre de esel afterhind dîn hûs."
Danti answorde: "Wê gelöve di, mi oller de asel?"
Danti and the Donkey
Thomas visits Danti the fool.
I have many vegetables to carry to market, says
Thomas.
So may I use your donkey?
Danti the fool says, I have already given him to
another.
Thomas says, You lie! I hear the donkey behind your
house.
Danti replies, who do you believe, me or the donkey?
Ingmar Roerdinkholder
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Message: 7
Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 20:45:44 +0100
From: Carsten Becker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: TECH: UTF-8 Test (was: Re: Lenition or Elision or What?)
PLEASE IGNORE THIS. IT'S JUST A STUPID TEST.
On Fri, 09 Dec 2005, 10:53 PM CET, Charlie wrote:
> Senjecan /mi/ --> /mï/ would be synizesis. This doesn't
> show well on the list. In "real" spelling the "m" has a cedilla
> which is the sign of palatalization.
Let's see if that comes through correctly: ɱ
You see, this is nothing of much relevance.
Carsten
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Message: 8
Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 15:19:01 -0500
From: "Mark J. Reed" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: TECH: UTF-8 Test (was: Re: Lenition or Elision or What?)
On 12/12/05, Carsten Becker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> PLEASE IGNORE THIS. IT'S JUST A STUPID TEST.
>
> On Fri, 09 Dec 2005, 10:53 PM CET, Charlie wrote:
>
> > Senjecan /mi/ --> /mï/ would be synizesis. This doesn't
> > show well on the list. In "real" spelling the "m" has a cedilla
> > which is the sign of palatalization.
>
> Let's see if that comes through correctly: ɱ
That came through, but as an m with a hook, exactly like the one on an
eng (I think that's what it's called; the IPA equivalent of CXS |N|).
No cedilla in sight.
--
Mark J. Reed <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
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Message: 9
Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 21:37:51 +0100
From: Henrik Theiling <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Pronunciation guides for non-linguists
Hi!
Andreas Johansson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> Quoting Henrik Theiling <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> >...
> > Same for German: [A] is not used is many dialects. It is tradition to
> > write [A:] vs. [a],
>
> It is? My textbooks have without exception written [a:] vs [a], and includes
> one
> written by Germans for Germans.
I think it is. But I admit that I've never actually seen [a_"]
written for German /a/, but only [a], just as you describe. Probably
this is to not confuse readers since [a_"] looks like [ä] in IPA,
which looks like {ä} and this is [E], which would be misleading.
But comparing /a/ vs. /A/ in langs or dialects that distinguish,
e.g. Dutch or Swiss German or Hamburgian, their /a/ is consistently
more fronted and their /A/ is consintently more backed. So when being
very precise, I'd annotate [a_"] for Standard Modern German.
Hmm, one would not write [a_"] in the standard five vowel system /a e
i o u/ either, would one? The default seems to be to just write [a],
although if there's only one open vowel, I'd strongly expect it to be
central. This is in the same way I'd expect the /e/ and /o/ to be
real mid vowels in such a three-heights system, while in a
four-heights system like German, I'd expect them to be really mid-open
vs. mid-close. Still you typically write [e] vs. [o] (e.g. Italian or
Spanish). The precise values will of course depend on language,
dialect and speaker.
Anyway, I think one gets in trouble when starting to talk about [e]
vs. [E] vs. [&] vs. [a] vs. [a_"] vs. [A]. I doubt these are so
well-defined that no overlap occurs for at least one pair of these for
different speakers (of different languages). I think for me, [a]
vs. [&] is the most difficult to distinguish (but not [a_"] vs. [&]).
> > but most dialects I a aware of have a centralised
> > [a_"] (+- length) for both. Anyway, there's [A:] vs. [a] in northern
> > dialect, and probably others. So it'd not be clear what you mean from
> > the German entry alone, either.
>
> Well, the "official" pronunciation, as set out in Duden, has [a:].
Ah! Hmm, my Duden from 1926 does not give any pronunciation. But my
Langenscheidt dictionaries that give German pronunciation still use
[A:] vs. [a] (although they probably mean /A:/ vs. /a/). It's not
bad, you know, as there are dialects that distinguish.
> In fact, my copy of Duden takes the trouble to contrast the [a:] of
> "Bahn" with the [A:] of English loans like "Hardware". Presumably
> this is what a guide like Gary's would be refering to.
>
> FWIW, my German teachers made a point of making us pronounce /a:/ as [a:]
> instead of [A:] (the value of Swedish /a:/).
Yes, seems logical. [a] is then probably used as the default symbol if
there's only one open vowel, as mentioned above.
**Henrik
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Message: 10
Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 21:35:24 -0800
From: Gary Shannon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: A short story to translate
--- Ingmar Roerdinkholder
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> MiddelFolksprâk:
>
> Danti on de asel
>
> Thomas besöke Danti de nar.
> Ig ha mennig grönfod to bringe to de markt, Thomas
> sege.
> Mag ig brûke dîn asel?
> Danti de nar sege: "ig ha geved hem alrede an en
> ander."
> Thomas sege: "du liuge! Ig höre de esel afterhind
> dîn hûs."
> Danti answorde: "Wê gelöve di, mi oller de asel?"
>
Now that's what I like! A language I've never seen
before that I can understand every single word of at
first sight! :-)
--gary
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Message: 11
Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 11:54:24 +0200
From: Isaac Penzev <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Lenition or Elision or What?
R A Brown wrote:
> caeruleancentaur wrote:
> > phenomenon. I would imagine that the spelling "vyumba" indicates a
> > palatal consonant.
>
> I don't know why. I know of no evidence that |vy| indicates [v_j]; I
> have always understood that |vy| meant exactly what it indicated, namely
> [vj].
>From what I know, |vy| indeed means /vj/, since there is no phonemic
palatalization in Swahili. But for my Russian ears it sounds a bit like
[v;j] (that is, [v_jj]). Maybe it's an aberration, because it looks like in
Russian the opposition /(C)j/ ~ /(C;)j/ is realized with velarization of the
first member: |îòúåçä| /otjezd/ [@"t_GjEst] 'departure' ~ |áðàòüÿ| /brat;ja/
["[EMAIL PROTECTED] 'brothers' (Nom.pl.)
> > I do not know why this doesn't occur in all such situations. E.g.
> > kiatu, shoe, and viatu, shoes!
>
> Or _kiazi_ 'potato' ~ _viatu_ potatoes.
kiazi ~ *VIAZI* !!!
> A natlang has to have exceptions :-)
I think the word above was a typo.
Anyway, one can add _kiaga_ ~ _viaga_ 'agreement', _kiapo_ ~ _viapo_ 'oath',
_kielezo_ ~ _vielezo_ 'illustration', _kiini_ ~ _viini_ 'kernel', _kiopoo_ ~
_viopoo_ 'hook', _kiuno_ ~ _viuno_ 'thigh' etc.
> I suspect it depends at what at what stage these words entered the
> language, from what dialect etc.
I suspect this to be an effect of a glottal stop present earlier but now
lost.
-- Yitzik
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Message: 12
Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 09:46:35 +0000
From: R A Brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Etymology of _insula_ (was Re: Thoughts on Word building)
Rob Haden wrote:
> On Fri, 9 Dec 2005 12:53:44 +0000, R A Brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
[snip]
>>>There's another slight problem, actually. Intervocalic */s/ becomes /0/
>>>(via */h/) before Greek.
>>
>>Of course it does. Yep, a Proto-Greek *na:sos would have give /na:os/
>>(Doric), /nE:os/ (Ionic) and /neO:s/ (Attic).
>
> Interestingly enough, that is the Greek word for 'temple'.
It is - as shown above in all those dialects. But there's more:
Aiolian has _nauos_ and in Spartan inscriptions we have _nawos_, with
'wau' or "digamma". The disappearance of original /w/ in most Greek
dialects is well attested. We must assume, in fact, that the Spartan
forms retain the earliest pronunciation /na:wos/
> Could there be a connection here?
I think not - see above.
>
>>>So, either the original Greek word was *na:ssos,
>>>or */s/ became */h/ before */x/ (= 'h2') was lost.
>>
>>I would think it was *na:ssos, which would also, of course, account for
>>the Latin _na:sus_
>
>
> The question is, where did the second /s/ come from?
I don't know.
[snip]
>>
>>However, he does connect the Celtic *srogn- with Greek _rhenkein_/
>>_rhenkhein_ "to snore", which I suppose is possible if we have
>>metathesis of -ghn- ~ ngh-
>
> Do the Greek variants have a dialectal distribution? That is, are their
> distributions mutually exclusive?
There doesn't seem to be clear dialect distinction. It is surely to do
with the Greek tendency to drop and aspirate if two occur in a word. One
see this nicely demonstrated in the case forms of thrikh- "hair" -
sing. plural
Nom thriks trikhes
Acc. trikha trikhas
Gen trikhos trikho:n
Dat. trikhi thriksi
The Greek stem of 'snore' must have been rhenkh-
As initial /r/ was always aspirated in earliest Greek, we might expect
the from renkh- to become normal. But it may be that as there was no
contrast between [r_h] and [r], the initial aspiration was not so
strongly felt or, indeed, it may be that the forms where -nkh- are shown
reflect a loss of aspiration in the initial /r/ - there would be no way
of showing this in Greek.
The loss of initial /h/ before vowels was already well underway in the
ancient language. It was standard in practically all Ionian dialects,
for example; so it does not seem to me unlikely that the change from
[r_h] --> [r] had already begun also in the ancient language.
> I agree that metathesis of *-ghn- to *-ngh- is more likely than vice-
> versa. Plus IE */g_h/ becomes Celtic */g/.
Yep.
However, one problem is the
> Greek vocalism -- _rhenk(h)ein_ vs. _rhis_, _rhinos_.
Absolutely - I don't think there is any connexion with rhi:n-, only that
a proto-Celtic *srogn- may be connected with rhenkh-
> Also, if the
> presumed */g_h/ was part of the root, we should see Greek _rhinks_,
> _rhinkos_ -- to my knowledge, we do not see that.
We don't.
> We *do* see, though, a
> Greek word _rhunkhos_ (neuter s-stem), meaning 'snout' or 'muzzle'.
> Semantically, this is similar to 'nose' in the sense of "jutting/sticking
> out". Interestingly, this might be related to _rhenk(h)ein_ 'to snore'
Yes - it certainly looks like it. Tho I am not sure how one accounts the
_u_.
> and
> _-runkhs_ as in _pharunkhs_ 'pharynx'. What do you think?
..and in _larunkhs_ 'larynx'? :-)
The problem with the last two is that the words are _pharunks_ (at least
the final letter is ksi) and _larunks_ with genitives _pharungos_ and
_larungos_ - not an aspirate in sight.
--
Ray
==================================
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==================================
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Message: 13
Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 08:53:24 -0500
From: Jim Henry <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: A short story to translate
On 12/12/05, Ingmar Roerdinkholder <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> MiddelFolksprâk:
>
> Danti on de asel
>
> Thomas besöke Danti de nar.
Is this based on the pan-Germanic IAL
called Folkspraak, or is it just a coincidence
of names?
--
Jim Henry
http://www.pobox.com/~jimhenry/conlang.htm
...Mind the gmail Reply-to: field
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Message: 14
Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 09:12:34 -0500
From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: A short story to translate
Tanke di, Gary.
Dat is eksakt wat ig wilde dat MiddelFolksprâk schalde wese:
en sort Germanisch Interlingua.
Mid de hertlig on frenlig gröteniss af Ingmar
On Mon, 12 Dec 2005 21:35:24 -0800, Gary Shannon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>Now that's what I like! A language I've never seen
>before that I can understand every single word of at
>first sight! :-)
>
>--gary
>--- Ingmar Roerdinkholder
><[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>> MiddelFolksprâk:
>>
>> Danti on de asel
>>
>> Thomas besöke Danti de nar.
>> Ig ha mennig grönfod to bringe to de markt, Thomas
>> sege.
>> Mag ig brûke dîn asel?
>> Danti de nar sege: "ig ha geved hem alrede an en
>> ander."
>> Thomas sege: "du liuge! Ig höre de asel afterhind
>> dîn hûs."
>> Danti answorde: "Wê gelöve di, mi oller de asel?"
>>
>
>=========================================================================
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Message: 15
Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 09:19:31 -0500
From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: A short story to translate
Not exactly, I first created an Inter-Germanic artlang called Middelsprake
myself, about which I posted several messages here earlier this year.
But after that I came into touch with the Folkspraak Yahoo group, and
became a quite active member of it. Middelsprake and Folkspraak have been
growing together since, and I call my variety MiddelFolksprâk now.
Ingmar
On Tue, 13 Dec 2005 08:53:24 -0500, Jim Henry <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
>Is this based on the pan-Germanic IAL
>called Folkspraak, or is it just a coincidence
>of names?
>
>--
>Jim Henry
>On 12/12/05, Ingmar Roerdinkholder <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
>> MiddelFolksprâk:
>>
>> Danti on de asel
>>
>> Thomas besöke Danti de nar.
>>http://www.pobox.com/~jimhenry/conlang.htm
>...Mind the gmail Reply-to: field
>=========================================================================
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Message: 16
Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 14:04:43 +0000
From: R A Brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Lenition or Elision or What?
Isaac Penzev wrote:
> R A Brown wrote:
>
>
>
>>caeruleancentaur wrote:
>>
>>>phenomenon. I would imagine that the spelling "vyumba" indicates a
>>>palatal consonant.
>>
>>I don't know why. I know of no evidence that |vy| indicates [v_j]; I
>>have always understood that |vy| meant exactly what it indicated, namely
>>[vj].
>
>
>>From what I know, |vy| indeed means /vj/, since there is no phonemic
> palatalization in Swahili
Indeed not.
> But for my Russian ears it sounds a bit like
> [v;j] (that is, [v_jj]). Maybe it's an aberration
Maybe - but [j] could, I guess, cause a (slight) non-phonemic
palatalization of a preceding consonant.
>
>>>I do not know why this doesn't occur in all such situations. E.g.
>>>kiatu, shoe, and viatu, shoes!
>>
>>Or _kiazi_ 'potato' ~ _viatu_ potatoes.
>
>
> kiazi ~ *VIAZI* !!!
Er, yes!
>
>>A natlang has to have exceptions :-)
>
>
> I think the word above was a typo.
'twas :-)
> Anyway, one can add _kiaga_ ~ _viaga_ 'agreement', _kiapo_ ~ _viapo_ 'oath',
> _kielezo_ ~ _vielezo_ 'illustration', _kiini_ ~ _viini_ 'kernel', _kiopoo_ ~
> _viopoo_ 'hook', _kiuno_ ~ _viuno_ 'thigh' etc.
>
>
>>I suspect it depends at what at what stage these words entered the
>>language, from what dialect etc.
>
>
> I suspect this to be an effect of a glottal stop present earlier but now
> lost
Could well be - we need to know etymology of these words.
--
Ray
==================================
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http://www.carolandray.plus.com
==================================
MAKE POVERTY HISTORY
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Message: 17
Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 16:03:51 +0100
From: Carsten Becker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Haiku Translation - Piercing Chill
On Monday, 12 December 2005, 02:10 AM CET, Nik Taylor wrote:
> Paul Bennett wrote:
>> I have the same problem with Thagojian: most of the
>> morphology is suffixes, so rhyming is not a very high
>> form of art. I've settled on alliteration and syllable
>> repetition, placed within a limited number of metrical
>> shapes -- this seems to have been the way things were
>> done in the oldest Germanic, Vedic and Greek poetry, and
>> thus is a likely candidate for the PIE model.
>
> Unfortunately, Uatakassi uses both prefixes and suffixes
> rather extensively, so that alliteration and rhyme are
> both trivial. I suspect syllable-count would be more
> important.
Ayeri, too. I wonder which other stylistic devices can be
commonly used BESIDES rhyme, syllable count and
alliteration? I've got a whole list of stylistic devices
(about 4 pages or so) that I am supposed to learn for my
final exams, but I haven't cared to do so yet because all
those Greek and Latin terms are quite hard to learn because
you cannot learn them as word -> translation but instead you
best learn them as word -> definition -> example. Quite hard
to remember if you don't know any Greek or Latin to derive
their meaning.
Yours,
Carsten
BTW, I'm currently trying "Voyage, Voyage", some very
relaxed song in French from the 1980's that I quite like.
(see sigs of the next few mails for the rest of the song)
--
Keywords: poetry
Eirarya rivantupayea aitado, ang membaiyàn navuriein eiran
yonangea pinena. Asu, asu, Pangoyyam. Mangasaha cancaea
mangasara avancaronea, Mangasaha pinea ena Sapanyang
mangasara seyaranea gesoyena -- Asu, asu, Nunu manga luga
irayea.
Eirarya arodevoiéa, Bisuayie apiduy, Silvu caronaris ...
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Message: 18
Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 16:04:06 +0100
From: Carsten Becker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Pronunciation guides for non-linguists
Hi!
On Sun, 11 Dec 2005, 08:07 PM CET, Gary Shannon wrote:
> I'm looking for a way to convey proper pronunciation
> of conlang letters to non-linguists who may have
> different native languages. It's all well and good to
> describe "A" as sounding like the "A" in "father", but
> for a non-English speaker, that doesn't help.
You could link to the page of that Norwegian uni (I always
forget the address, but you certainly know which one) that
explains all those IPA letters with sound files. Linking to
the sound files themselves might be bandwidth theft. Or, you
could record your own sound files of course. Make them as
short as possible and as long as necessary and use only
22kHz, not 44kHz and compress the mp3's to 64k mono or so,
your files should get quite small then.
Carsten
--
Keywords: IPA
Asu, asu, Eng asu nuderan sirutayang nay bahisreng. Asu,
asu, Cong sagalea aiparonoy tyánena. Asu, asu, Ling caronea
aiternu nongonena Aíndi. Asu, asu, Nay tadoy sa·sahu.
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Message: 19
Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 10:22:17 -0500
From: Carsten Becker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: TECH: UTF-8 Test (was: Re: Lenition or Elision or What?)
On Tue, 13 Dec 2005 10:21:18 -0500, Carsten Becker
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>IIRC, Charlie once mentioned he used an m-hook. M-cedilla is m̧ of course.
>
>CB
Bah, stupid list software.
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Message: 20
Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 10:21:18 -0500
From: Carsten Becker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: TECH: UTF-8 Test (was: Re: Lenition or Elision or What?)
IIRC, Charlie once mentioned he used an m-hook. M-cedilla is m̧ of course.
CB
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