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There are 9 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1. Re: Haiku Translation - Piercing Chill
From: caeruleancentaur <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2. Re: Etymology of _insula_ (was Re: Thoughts on Word building)
From: Rob Haden <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3. Re: [OT] Finnish English
From: John Vertical <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4. Re: [OT] Finnish English
From: "Mark J. Reed" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5. Re: [OT] Finnish English
From: Andreas Johansson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6. Re: [OT] Finnish English
From: "Mark J. Reed" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7. Re: [OT] Finnish English
From: Roger Mills <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8. Re: TECH: UTF-8 Test (was: Re: Lenition or Elision or What?)
From: Tristan McLeay <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9. Re: [OT] Finnish English
From: Andreas Johansson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
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Message: 1
Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 16:52:31 -0000
From: caeruleancentaur <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Haiku Translation - Piercing Chill
--- In [email protected], Carsten Becker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
>Ayeri, too. I wonder which other stylistic devices can be
>commonly used BESIDES rhyme, syllable count and
>alliteration?
You might try parallelism, a style used in Hebrew poetry of the Old
Testament. It is the juxtaposition of semantically (and frequently
grammatically) similar word groups.
There are two main types.
1) synonymous parallelism involves the repetition in the second
hemistich of what has already been said in the first.
Have-mercy-on-me, O-God, in-your-goodness;
in-the-greatness-of-your-compassion wipe-out my-offense (Psalm 51:3)
3 + 3
In a subset known as emblematic parallelism one hemistich reproduces
the other by means of a metaphor or simile.
As-the-hind longs for-running-waters,
so-my-soul longs for-you, O-God. (Psalm 42:2)
3 + 4
2) In antithetic parallelism , the situations represented and the
statements made about them are opposed, but the affirmations are
made in such a way that each hemistich says approximately the same
thing, for one imples the other.
Trust in-the-Lord with-all-your-heart,
on-your-own-intelligence rely not. (Proverbs 3:5)
3 + 3
Sometimes the parallelism is complete.
Below, his-roots dry-up,
and-above, his-branches wither. (Job 18:16)
3 + 3
The balance is abc + a'b'c'.
Sometimes the parallelism is incomplete.
To-you, O-Lord, I-cried out;
with-the-Lord I-pleaded:
3 + 2
The balance is abc + b'c'
Then it continues:
"What-gain-would-there-be from-my-lifeblood,
from-my-going-down into-the-grave." (Psalm 30:9-10)
2 + 2
ab + b'c
The second hemistich of each line omits the initial element of the
first.
This style could not be used to translate a poem, but it would work
with an original poem.
Charlie
http://wiki.frath.net/user:caeruleancentaur
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Message: 2
Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 14:13:39 -0500
From: Rob Haden <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Etymology of _insula_ (was Re: Thoughts on Word building)
On Tue, 13 Dec 2005 09:46:35 +0000, R A Brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
>>>Of course it does. Yep, a Proto-Greek *na:sos would have give /na:os/
>>>(Doric), /nE:os/ (Ionic) and /neO:s/ (Attic).
>>
>> Interestingly enough, that is the Greek word for 'temple'.
>
>It is - as shown above in all those dialects. But there's more:
>Aiolian has _nauos_ and in Spartan inscriptions we have _nawos_, with
>'wau' or "digamma". The disappearance of original /w/ in most Greek
>dialects is well attested. We must assume, in fact, that the Spartan
>forms retain the earliest pronunciation /na:wos/
The Indo-European protoform, then, was *néxwos. I wonder if there's any
way to relate this word to any IE root or other etymon.
[snip]
>>>However, he does connect the Celtic *srogn- with Greek _rhenkein_/
>>>_rhenkhein_ "to snore", which I suppose is possible if we have
>>>metathesis of -ghn- ~ ngh-
>>
>> Do the Greek variants have a dialectal distribution? That is, are their
>> distributions mutually exclusive?
>
>There doesn't seem to be clear dialect distinction. It is surely to do
>with the Greek tendency to drop and aspirate if two occur in a word. One
>see this nicely demonstrated in the case forms of thrikh- "hair" -
> sing. plural
>Nom thriks trikhes
>Acc. trikha trikhas
>Gen trikhos trikho:n
>Dat. trikhi thriksi
>
>The Greek stem of 'snore' must have been rhenkh-
>
>As initial /r/ was always aspirated in earliest Greek, we might expect
>the from renkh- to become normal. But it may be that as there was no
>contrast between [r_h] and [r], the initial aspiration was not so
>strongly felt or, indeed, it may be that the forms where -nkh- are shown
>reflect a loss of aspiration in the initial /r/ - there would be no way
>of showing this in Greek.
I wonder if the initial aspirated /r/ arose due to the fact that there were
seemingly no native IE words that began with /r/. So, all instances of
Greek initial /r/ come from *sr-, *wr-, and *yr- (if there are any of the
last one).
>The loss of initial /h/ before vowels was already well underway in the
>ancient language. It was standard in practically all Ionian dialects,
>for example; so it does not seem to me unlikely that the change from
>[r_h] --> [r] had already begun also in the ancient language.
>
>> I agree that metathesis of *-ghn- to *-ngh- is more likely than vice-
>> versa. Plus IE */g_h/ becomes Celtic */g/.
>
>Yep.
>
> However, one problem is the
>> Greek vocalism -- _rhenk(h)ein_ vs. _rhis_, _rhinos_.
>
>Absolutely - I don't think there is any connexion with rhi:n-, only that
>a proto-Celtic *srogn- may be connected with rhenkh-
Well, with the example you gave above, _thriks_, one wouldn't think that
there'd be a monophthong /i/ in the nominative singular of a root noun.
So, it seems that, if the word is indeed native to IE, the original
paradigm was e.g. nom. sg. *dhréighs, gen. sg. *dhrighós. Greek then
regularized the vocalism of the word based on the oblique cases. Such a
thing could also have happened with _rhi:s_.
>> Also, if the
>> presumed */g_h/ was part of the root, we should see Greek _rhinks_,
>> _rhinkos_ -- to my knowledge, we do not see that.
>
>We don't.
On the other hand, though, *-gh is a common "root extension" in IE verbal
morphology.
>> We *do* see, though, a
>> Greek word _rhunkhos_ (neuter s-stem), meaning 'snout' or 'muzzle'.
>> Semantically, this is similar to 'nose' in the sense of "jutting/sticking
>> out". Interestingly, this might be related to _rhenk(h)ein_ 'to snore'
>
>Yes - it certainly looks like it. Tho I am not sure how one accounts the
>_u_.
I've been thinking about that as well. IIRC, Greek raised /o/ to /u/
before medial coda nasals (and, apparently, any labial nasals), so it's
possible that _rhunkhos_ comes from earlier *rhonkhos. If that is indeed
the case, I think that we can link it to the verb _rhenk(h)ein_ as an s-
stem neuter.
>> and
>> _-runkhs_ as in _pharunkhs_ 'pharynx'. What do you think?
>
>..and in _larunkhs_ 'larynx'? :-)
Exactly. :)
>The problem with the last two is that the words are _pharunks_ (at least
>the final letter is ksi) and _larunks_ with genitives _pharungos_ and
>_larungos_ - not an aspirate in sight.
Yes, you're right. Sorry for the mistake. The pair _pharunks_ and
_larunks_ seem to point to an element *runks that forms compounds, but such
a hypothesis cannot be strong unless there are other words containing that
element. Do you know of any?
- Rob
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Message: 3
Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 23:05:32 +0200
From: John Vertical <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [OT] Finnish English
Andreas Johansson wrote:
>
>If some Swedish input be welcome here, I'd like to mention that while
>the Swedish cognates of English words with [ju] often have [y:], eg
>'new'~'ny', English loans with [ju] generally don't get adopted with
>/y:/. For instance, I, when talking Swedish, pronounce "New York" as
>[nju\: jo:k].
I'd expect so, since you guys have /u:\/ as a separate phoneme... but when
talking in Finnish, the [u\] in "new" will generally be understood as /y/
(give or take a colon).
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
>The main consideration with Finnish English is number of sounds. A
>bit like the orthography in my language: I had no stops, so I must
>look for other similarities. In Finnish, an example is "tsa:t", which
>is about how they wuold pronounce "chat."
No we wouldn't. It's [ts&t] or [tS&t]. Only someone who's never heard the
word (or confuses English with French) would use a different vowel.
Don't forget either that several common sounds that Finnish lacks (primarily
/f b g S/) have settled in as "loanword phonemes" in several dialects. Does
such a thing that happen in any other languages BTW?
John Vertical
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Message: 4
Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 16:30:21 -0500
From: "Mark J. Reed" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [OT] Finnish English
On 12/13/05, John Vertical <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Don't forget either that several common sounds that Finnish lacks (primarily
> /f b g S/) have settled in as "loanword phonemes" in several dialects. Does
> such a thing that happen in any other languages BTW?
Assuming I understand what you mean by "loanword phoneme", then sure,
this happens all the time. The sound /x/ has such a status in most
English dialects (though not Scots English) . Spanish has several
loanwords with funky non-native sounds like /S/, /Z/, and /dZ/; of
course, US immigrant Spanish, as a minority dialect spoken within a
majority-English population, has more of these than other dialects.
--
Mark J. Reed <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
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Message: 5
Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 23:23:06 +0100
From: Andreas Johansson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [OT] Finnish English
Quoting John Vertical <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
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Message: 6
Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 17:26:31 -0500
From: "Mark J. Reed" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [OT] Finnish English
On 12/13/05, Andreas Johansson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Quoting John Vertical <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
You don't say!
(sorry, couldn't resist)
(...not that I tried very hard)
--
Mark J. Reed <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
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Message: 7
Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 17:42:54 -0500
From: Roger Mills <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [OT] Finnish English
Mark J. Reed wrote:
> On 12/13/05, John Vertical <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Don't forget either that several common sounds that Finnish lacks
> > (primarily
> > /f b g S/) have settled in as "loanword phonemes" in several dialects.
> > Does
> > such a thing that happen in any other languages BTW?
>
> Assuming I understand what you mean by "loanword phoneme", then sure,
> this happens all the time. (snip)
Goodness yes. Indonesian/Malay has adopted tons of Arabic religious terms,
some of which are quite generally known, and pronounced correctly by most
(almost all Moslem children are taught to recite the Koran, and YOU GET IT
RIGHT, OR ELSE!!). I mentioned a few the other day in my post about Elomi
pronunciation--/f, z/ in particular: fajar ['fadZar] 'the dawn call to
prayer' now also simply 'dawn'; idul fitri 'the festival at the end of
Ramadan'; zaman 'era, epoch' (a little more on the scholarly side); zina
'adultery'. Some of the z-words have variants with j-, jaman for one, but
also (I assume related) jam 'hour, time' (no "zam"). Some Arab. words, even
religious ones, have alternates, e.g. isya ['iSa] ~isa 'the +/- 8pm call to
prayer'; but syukur '(give) thanks' as a proper name is usually ['Sukur].
Intervoc. /?/ is from Arabic too-- do'a 'prayer', ra'yat ~rakyat 'the
people'; no doubt aided by the fact that Ml. has [?] in certain conditioned
environments.
There is also a layer of old Portuguese loans that had -s- = [z], but these
all have /j/: mesa 'table' > meja; camisa 'shirt' > kemeja [k@'meja].
The usual fate of borrowed /f/ however is Indo. /p/-- kopi 'coffee', pikir
'think' < Arab. fikr; but the rare instances of /v/ > [f], not /b/ as one
might expect (probably due to Dutch)-- "veteran" is a common place/street
name, ['[EMAIL PROTECTED], "TV" is [ti'fi].
Sanskrit and later Indic languages helped phonemicize /e, o/ again aided by
the presence of conditioned [e,o] = /i,u/-- beda 'different', dosa 'sin' et
al.; also aided by numerous loans from Javanese, where e/o are phonemic.
(Jav. in fact might likely be the intermediary).
One of the orthograpic differences between Indo. and Malay (as national
langs.) is that Indo. mostly has the i/u form, Malay the conditioned e/o--
putih vs. puteh 'white', hidung vs. hidong 'nose'; sepuluh vs. sepuloh '10'
but both occasionally have the e/o form only: tolong 'help' (but tulung in
some relatives, < *tuluN); and also benteng ['bEntEN] 'fort, fortress' that
IIRC is of native origin.
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Message: 8
Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2005 10:27:12 +1100
From: Tristan McLeay <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: TECH: UTF-8 Test (was: Re: Lenition or Elision or What?)
On Tue, 2005-12-13 at 10:22 -0500, Carsten Becker wrote:
> On Tue, 13 Dec 2005 10:21:18 -0500, Carsten Becker
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> >IIRC, Charlie once mentioned he used an m-hook. M-cedilla is m̧ of
> >course.
> >
> >CB
>
> Bah, stupid list software.
That doesn't look like the sort of thing the list software would do,
rather I'd think it was your email client. Try: m̧ (it looks ugly
because no font designer nor font renderer programmer has thought to
make ways of having half-decent looking un-pre-composed combining
characters, except for things like TeX).
I do however have most of the ingredients for humble pie here...
--
Tristan
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Message: 9
Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2005 13:09:05 +0100
From: Andreas Johansson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [OT] Finnish English
Quoting Andreas Johansson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> Quoting John Vertical <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
>
Damn. I don't know what happened here.
The mail was supposed to mention some loanword phonemes in German - nasalized
vowels in French loans, and /ej/ in English ones - and say that Swedish doesn't
have any, except some arguable marginal examples.
Andreas
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